Will this just about kill off the catholic church in Australia?

 
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
If Pell told me that the sun would rise tomorrow morning, I'd want a second opinion.
Valvegear

Long term close friend of Tony Abbott.  Pell could not lie straight in bed.

Sponsored advertisement

  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
The Railpage lynch mob strikes again! We have the word of one very vocal man at the moment who is saying Pell offered him a bribe. Is there another side to this story, sure, but we don't need that here as the mob has already made up their mind.

Consider this, why has this guy taken so long to come forward and make this accusation, as he could have done so several years ago?

And full marks to Bevans for politicising the issue, what on earth has Abbott got to do with it? Oh, sorry, I forgot, according to Bevans, Abbot is the root of all evil in this country, so naturally he is responsible for this situation as well. Truly pathetic.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
The Railpage lynch mob strikes again! We have the word of one very vocal man at the moment who is saying Pell offered him a bribe. Is there another side to this story, sure, but we don't need that here as the mob has already made up their mind.
"TheBlacksmith"
I'd have to say that a comment like that means you haven't been following the path of Mr Pell very closely. The man has form going back many years. If you'd said the words of very many vocal men, you'd have been closer to the mark. Pell has been a master of obfuscation ever since this whole sorry saga started to unfold years ago. He has a classic record of trying to defend the indefensible.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
I'd have to say that a comment like that means you haven't been following the path of Mr Pell very closely. The man has form going back many years. If you'd said the words of very many vocal men, you'd have been closer to the mark. Pell has been a master of obfuscation ever since this whole sorry saga started to unfold years ago. He has a classic record of trying to defend the indefensible.
Valvegear
Ah, no. You would be wrong. I am an atheist by nature, and don't care a whit about the fortunes of the catholic church, or any other for that matter, but I follow these events quite closely.

And you would have to be stupid not to expect Pell to defend the organisation he works for. And you would also be pretty stupid if you thought he had acted morally throughout this saga, but it does not change anything, it is still at this stage the word of one man against another until such time as someone presents real evidence, as against hearsay, that Pell has committed any crime.

But in the meantime, we have a good portion of rednecks on this forum who are prepared to call the judgement and pronounce him guilty, all without due course of justice.

And to top it off, my favourite gripe about this forum, the ability to tie this in to Tony Abbott, simply by virtue of a friendship, whether real or otherwise.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
And to top it off, my favourite gripe about this forum, the ability to tie this in to Tony Abbott, simply by virtue of a friendship, whether real or otherwise.
TheBlacksmith
Well redneck theory says their both catholic and their both leaders (in some sense of the word) therefore 6 plus 9 equals 2 which means they both must be deep in the same crap
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Does anyone else on this thread think that Pell had a responsibility to deal with the horrific crimes now being uncovered?  

Also consider Pell spent much of his early career in the Priesthood in and around Ballarat.  Yes Ballarat. To suggest Pell did not know or should not have known about these very serious cases of Child Abuse is a cop out.

There will never be, nor should there ever be any excuses for the sexual interference of any children especially by people in a position of trust such as the clergy.  For this I make zero apologies.

Abbott and Pell both being Opus Dei would have known each other very well.

If Pell has nothing to worry about and has a clear conscious then let him come back to Australia and face questioning.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
But in the meantime, we have a good portion of rednecks on this forum who are prepared to call the judgement and pronounce him guilty, all without due course of justice.
"TheBlacksmith"
I don't recall pronouncing him guilty. I most certainly do recall saying that I don't trust him to be truthful.

...at this stage the word of one man against another until such time as someone presents real evidence, as against hearsay, that Pell has committed any crime.
"The Blacksmith"
It may have escaped your notice that sworn testimony is evidence.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Does anyone else on this thread think that Pell had a responsibility to deal with the horrific crimes now being uncovered?  

Also consider Pell spent much of his early career in the Priesthood in and around Ballarat.  Yes Ballarat. To suggest Pell did not know or should not have known about these very serious cases of Child Abuse is a cop out.

There will never be, nor should there ever be any excuses for the sexual interference of any children especially by people in a position of trust such as the clergy.  For this I make zero apologies.

Abbott and Pell both being Opus Dei would have known each other very well.

If Pell has nothing to worry about and has a clear conscious then let him come back to Australia and face questioning.
bevans
I think you will find if you consult the latest news, that Pell has agreed to appear by video or audio link at the enquiry, I don't think his physical appearance is necessary.

And so what if Abbott knew Pell, what possible bearing has it on the subject? You are introducing your own petty prejudices against the Liberal party and Abbott into the argument and it has no place there.

As for 'horrific crimes', if you are referring to members of the clergy molesting small children, then it was not, and is not endemic to the catholic church, the other churches are just as guilty of these acts.

I myself was subjected to molestation as a child, once by an anglican minister, a family member, a well-known ballet star and several strangers but I am not running up to a current affairs reporter and making a case of it. I dealt with it, it was unpleasant, certainly not horrifying and I got on with life. So I feel I am well qualified to speak on the matter. I am not interested in turning on the tears and claiming it ruined my life forever, because it certainly did not, however I am rather suspicious of the motives of others who do, especially when you see an employee of certain law firms in the background.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
I don't recall pronouncing him guilty. I most certainly do recall saying that I don't trust him to be truthful.

It may have escaped your notice that sworn testimony is evidence.
Valvegear
Has it gone to court?
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
If George believes he acted in the best interests of the clergy and the victims at all times he should return to Australia to assist the Royal
Commission with their enquiries.

It should be noted Australia does not have an extradition agreement with the Vatican if it comes to that.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Has it gone to court?
"TheBlacksmith"
Omigawd - it's in a Royal Commission. Royal Commissions take sworn evidence, dear boy.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
And so what if Abbott knew Pell, what possible bearing has it on the subject? You are introducing your own petty prejudices against the Liberal party and Abbott into the argument and it has no place there.

As for 'horrific crimes', if you are referring to members of the clergy molesting small children, then it was not, and is not endemic to the catholic church, the other churches are just as guilty of these acts.

I myself was subjected to molestation as a child, once by an anglican minister, a family member, a well-known ballet star and several strangers but I am not running up to a current affairs reporter and making a case of it. I dealt with it, it was unpleasant, certainly not horrifying and I got on with life. So I feel I am well qualified to speak on the matter. I am not interested in turning on the tears and claiming it ruined my life forever, because it certainly did not, however I am rather suspicious of the motives of others who do, especially when you see an employee of certain law firms in the background.
TheBlacksmith

Blacksmith, let me start by saying that I am sorry to hear of your plight and the abuse you suffered.  I have not stated nor have I intimated the Catholic Church is the only religious organisation who have questions to answer.

I thought it an interesting fact that Pell and Abbott are friends and of course Abbott was a study.  There are some very interesting facts about Pell and Abbott which are available should people choose to dig further.

I maintain my perspective on the comments above and again state there is no excuse and will never be any excuse for sexual interference with children.  Your comment about it being endemic I accept it is your view but in my view it is too early in the proceedings to make that claim.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Omigawd - it's in a Royal Commission. Royal Commissions take sworn evidence, dear boy.
Valvegear
So what? Until it is entered as evidence, and can be cross-examined then it is heresay:

"Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor."

And then it will simply be the word of one witness against another. Pell would have been clever enough not to have committed the offer to paper or made it in the presence of an independent witness.

And I am not your 'Dear Boy' thank you. Had enough of that from older people when I was young, see previous admission.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Your comment about it being endemic i accept it is your view but it is too early in the proceedings to make that claim if my view.
bevans
We are talking about the 1950s, back then the clergy were often associated with Boy Scout and Cub groups, often being leaders in either group and they were in there interfering with the troops. And there were bent Scout leaders as well, I experienced them.

'Fiddling with boys' was not really considered a crime back then, certainly not one that you reported. If you told your parents they most likely would have looked embarrassed and wanted you to keep quiet about it. About the worst that would happen is your father might go around and see the person and punch him in the face, but that was all that ever happened.

I even doubt the police would have taken you seriously if you went and reported it. Awareness of child abuse is new, it has only arisen in very recent times, previously it fell into the category of family violence and abuse, something that had to be hushed up and kept in the family.

And if the person accused was a respected member of the community you would be dubbed a liar anyway, so reporting was pointless. I know there are many men out there of my age who had the same things happen to them, but most put it out of their mind and got on with life, just as I did.

BTW, the very title of this thread suggests it is only the catholic church that is to blame.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
And I am not your 'Dear Boy' thank you.
"TheBlacksmith"
First things first - my apologies.

So what? Until it is entered as evidence, and can be cross-examined then it is heresay:
"TheBlacksmith"
Have you ever sat in on a Royal Commission? I did on quite a few occasions at the Royal Commission examining the failure of King Street Bridge. This took place in the Hawthorn Town Hall in my student days, with Justice Barber in the Chair. You want to bet evidence was cross examined?  Various sides were at each other hammer and tongs. I would expect the same opportunity to be afforded to any accused persons or other persons of interest such as Pell, if they wished to avail themselves of it.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
The Railpage lynch mob strikes again! We have the word of one very vocal man at the moment who is saying Pell offered him a bribe. Is there another side to this story, sure, but we don't need that here as the mob has already made up their mind.

Consider this, why has this guy taken so long to come forward and make this accusation, as he could have done so several years ago?

And full marks to Bevans for politicising the issue, what on earth has Abbott got to do with it? Oh, sorry, I forgot, according to Bevans, Abbot is the root of all evil in this country, so naturally he is responsible for this situation as well. Truly pathetic.
TheBlacksmith


Politicising Rolling Eyes Your defence of Abbott is to be expected.

It was Abbott who made it political! He could have declined to comment. Did he jump to Pell’s defence as Tony Abbott a Catholic or as a Prime Minister representing all Australians? As a catholic or an Australian he wasn't speaking for me.

People like Pell and Abbott represent that arrogance under which such things thrived. This is out in the open now in spite of people who viewed the world as they do, intent on protecting the status quo. Enlightenment may come eventually but their type will fight it every step of the way. Razz
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Politicising Rolling EyesYour defence of Abbott is to be expected.
It was Abbott who made it political! He could have declined to comment. Did he jump to Pell’s defence as Tony Abbott a Catholic or as a Prime Minister representing all Australians? As a catholic or an Australian he wasn't speaking for me.

People like Pell and Abbott represent that arrogance under which such things thrived. This is out in the open now in spite of people who viewed the world as they do, intent on protecting the status quo. Enlightenment may come eventually but their type will fight it every step of the way. Razz
Groundrelay
Your comment is also to be expected. You, like all the others here, assume because I don't like the politicising that I support Abbott or Pell. As usual you are wrong. I don't speak for nor support Abbott in anything. And, just for the record, I did not defend Abbott, I asked what possible reference he had to a discussion about Pell.

What I do dislike is the constant political ranting that occurs on this forum, in that every subject discussed eventually comes down to politics. It is just like Godwin's Law, except you substitute politics for Hitler.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Your comment is also to be expected. You, like all the others here, assume because I don't like the politicising that I support Abbott or Pell. As usual you are wrong. I don't speak for nor support Abbott in anything. And, just for the record, I did not defend Abbott, I asked what possible reference he had to a discussion about Pell.
What I do dislike is the constant political ranting that occurs on this forum, in that every subject discussed eventually comes down to politics. It is just like Godwin's Law, except you substitute politics for Hitler.
"TheBlacksmith"


Except for the phrase "like all the others here", I agree with you. I have not been party to politicising this business, and I do not see the need for it.
  Michelle12 Moderator Photo Overlord

Location: Melbourne
Blacksmith, we accept  and respect what you have said. True, it was not only the Catholic Church that was responsible for the 'cover up' of the abuse of children by their clergy/members. The Catholic Church is highlighted due to the fact it happens to be the largest of the Christian branches and, arguably have the largest religious following in the world.
From what you have shared with us about it happening to yourself, I would have assumed that you would love not only the abusers to be brought to justice, but the people(like Cardinal Pell) who were in a position to deal with these low life perverts to also answer for their sins.
Maybe that's why the Vatican in Rome had requested Pell's presence over there and not have him 'face the music' in Ballarat.
The credibility of the Catholic Church has taken a few massive hits and one would think that the people in the ivory towers back in Rome would have figured this out by now and not continue to 'protect their own'. It's about time they cut these 'bad apples' loose in order to restore the public's faith in their organization.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Fine, then let us have a good old Railpage witch-hunt for the Church of England, Methodist, Presbyterian and all those used-to-be churches who also indulged in child molestation. And while we are about it, let's include the Boy Scout leaders and their brethren.

The Catholic Church are just the low hanging fruit, so is Pell. How many of you can name the heads of those other organisations without looking them up on the Internet?

I would argue the Catholic Church is the best target also because they are arguably the wealthiest organisation and are ripe for compensation payments.

Would I like the people responsible for my abuse to be brought to justice? Nope, I'd would rather let the whole thing be forgotten, most of them are probably dead now, and I know some certainly are, including the ballet person and the minister, so will never face justice.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Norda Fittazroy
The Catholic Church are just the low hanging fruit, so is Pell.
"TheBlacksmith"
No. The Catholic Church is the one currently in the news, and therefore the obvious topic for comment.

Would I like the people responsible for my abuse to be brought to justice? Nope, I'd would rather let the whole thing be forgotten, most of them are probably dead now, and I know some certainly are, including the ballet person and the minister, so will never face justice.
"TheBlacksmith"
OK - your decision, and your way of handling it. Others have differing views about what they want done. I respect your view, and theirs.
  NSWGR8022 Deputy Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
'Fiddling with boys' was not really considered a crime back then, certainly not one that you reported. If you told your parents they most likely would have looked embarrassed and wanted you to keep quiet about it. About the worst that would happen is your father might go around and see the person and punch him in the face, but that was all that ever happened.
TheBlacksmith

Oh Blacksmith. 'fiddling with boys' has always been wrong and has never been acceptable.  I feel for you and can understand how painful this must be for you.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
On the Nine News this evening, the guy who made the accusation against Pell made this statement, not necessarily verbatim, but close enough: "All that money spent defending the indefensible, when it would have been better spent on the victims". And there is the motivation.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
It must have taken great courage blacksmith for you to tell us here at Railpage about your experiences.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
I'm personally close to this issue. It makes me quite angry.

I have been attacked by a poster for apparently politicising this and that is his prerogative.

In respect of the events this week, as a Catholic personally I don’t think much of Pell and as a citizen I believe Abbott should have declined to comment whilst this business is in progress. True I don’t consider either as particularly enlightened and representative of attitudes where injustices are perpetuated.

I’m disgusted with the cover ups that went on for decades within these institutions one of which I have experience of. At least we have progressed to a point where these things are now out in the open without retribution against the victims. This so called "witch hunt" has a long way to go.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.