This is more than likely been mentioned in numerous threads, but I wanted to gauge the reaction and thoughts of what the current Liberal NSW Government is wanting to do, have single deck trains on the majority if not all rail lines.

So my thought turned to one area in particular, as the transport minister, Gladys Berejiklian, has stated and pointed out that the Bankstown Line will in fact go to a single deck status (along with parts of the illawarra lines from the city to Hurstville eventually linking up to the North West Rail Link) and it got me thinking, why not put the Bankstown Line into a single deck train status now.

But I know most of you are thinking this is crazy right? Just hear me out. The Victorian Government along with Metro Trains Melbourne Pty Ltd are phasing out their older air-conditioned Comeng trains which have been retrofitted to have desto boards inside and out (electronic none the less) and with announcements.

So why not purchase these sets which are being sold off or scrapped altogether, I mean it would make perfect sense in a way.

This would be perfect to at least test the idea of moving to a single deck and get out most of the kinks at the same time. So why don't we buy the sets to test out, trial perhaps for at least design purposes what Sydney needs and wants as a single deck trains but also what infrastructure is needed to be built or changed (more so changed but could be a few things that may need to be built)

So what are your thoughts?

We need 6 car single deck trains, no guards, no station staff and signals every 20m to give us 10s headways.

We need 6 car single deck trains, no guards, no station staff and signals every 20m to give us 10s headways.

I beg to differ but we do need station staff (for disabled passengers and assistance) and we do need Guards for the same reason. Drivers are reluctant to do very much to assist disabled passengers - I should know, it has happened to me when A guard or station staff could not assist me and the driver was called to assist but didn't

In regards to signals, I think your right there, but we do need to ATP and related items like they do in the UK and other railways around the word.

We need 6 car single deck trains, no guards, no station staff and signals every 20m to give us 10s headways.

Currently, it is not the drivers role or responsibility to do anything with customer service. This is why we must also have driverless trains. I dream of a system where the workforce is eliminated, and thus the impact of the unions.

The sooner we move to this idea of utopia, the better. I mean Victoria, Brisbane, UAE are the pillars of public train systems that the world looks upon with envy. We need to enact everyone of their ideas and NOW!

 

Fear not, I will be taking videos and photographs of light fitting and leaves on platforms to support your case for single deck trains. A city like Sydney needs them.

We need 6 car single deck trains, no guards, no station staff and signals every 20m to give us 10s headways.

Currently, it is not the drivers role or responsibility to do anything with customer service. This is why we must also have driverless trains. I dream of a system where the workforce is eliminated, and thus the impact of the unions.

The sooner we move to this idea of utopia, the better. I mean Victoria, Brisbane, UAE are the pillars of public train systems that the world looks upon with envy. We need to enact everyone of their ideas and NOW!

 

Fear not, I will be taking videos and photographs of light fitting and leaves on platforms to support your case for single deck trains. A city like Sydney needs them.

You're a bad man Seb...   I see you're cutting to the chase, to save pages of posts that will have those as the obvious answers...

PMSL

We need 6 car single deck trains, no guards, no station staff and signals every 20m to give us 10s headways.

Cool story bro, needs more "customer focus" and s***!

Not sure about using Victoria's clapped-out stuff, but bring back single decks, I say. The old passenger and train throughput stats from the City Underground with single decks speak for themselves. That was without power operated doors, and before the "doors closing, please stand clear" rubbish began, but still...

We need 6 car single deck trains, no guards, no station staff and signals every 20m to give us 10s headways.

Currently, it is not the drivers role or responsibility to do anything with customer service. This is why we must also have driverless trains. I dream of a system where the workforce is eliminated, and thus the impact of the unions.

The sooner we move to this idea of utopia, the better. I mean Victoria, Brisbane, UAE are the pillars of public train systems that the world looks upon with envy. We need to enact everyone of their ideas and NOW!

 

Fear not, I will be taking videos and photographs of light fitting and leaves on platforms to support your case for single deck trains. A city like Sydney needs them.

Brisbane?  Why not Auckland? (For those that don't know, it's regarded by Paul Mees and others as the OECD's worst system.)

We need 6 car single deck trains, no guards, no station staff and signals every 20m to give us 10s headways.

Currently, it is not the drivers role or responsibility to do anything with customer service. This is why we must also have driverless trains. I dream of a system where the workforce is eliminated, and thus the impact of the unions.

The sooner we move to this idea of utopia, the better. I mean Victoria, Brisbane, UAE are the pillars of public train systems that the world looks upon with envy. We need to enact everyone of their ideas and NOW!

Fear not, I will be taking videos and photographs of light fitting and leaves on platforms to support your case for single deck trains. A city like Sydney needs them.

You're a bad man Seb... I see you're cutting to the chase, to save pages of posts that will have those as the obvious answers...

PMSL

We need more SD trains so when we finally move to single man crewing we have enough trains for all those guards to drive.

Not sure about using Victoria's clapped-out stuff, but bring back single decks, I say. The old passenger and train throughput stats from the City Underground with single decks speak for themselves. That was without power operated doors, and before the "doors closing, please stand clear" rubbish began, but still...

I think utelising the old Victorian Comeng single deck trains would be a good move to get commuters used to going back on the single deck trains. The only problem I can see is that when a train from Bankstown-Lidcombe or Liverpool via Sydenham goes around the city circle, it doesn't go back to the same line, instead it can go to the Airport line and Campbelltown which doesn't make sense to me.

Likewise for trains from Campbelltown, Airport and Liverpool via Lidcombe and Strathfield can go back to Ashfield, Liverpool, Campbelltown and the Airport and same once again going back (if that makes sense to anyone).

What I think would be needed is additional tunnels to seperate the lines in the city circle and make things much, much easier than what it is now. But at least getting single deck trains from Victoria for a soft transition for the public is better. Allows for the public to get a feel back to going to these type of trains

Just to point out that wise Brisbane or Queensland Rail is a model for how CityRail should look, they still have guards but with single deck trains. They would only be single deck model, not staffing.

Okay, I've finished laughing now...

"But I know most of you are thinking this is crazy right? Just hear me out. The Victorian Government along with Metro Trains Melbourne Pty Ltd are phasing out their older air-conditioned Comeng trains which have been retrofitted to have desto boards inside and out (electronic none the less) and with announcements.


So why not purchase these sets which are being sold off or scrapped altogether, I mean it would make perfect sense in a way."

- No I don't think it's crazy.  However I see multiple insurmountable obstacles to it ever happening.

- To your line of thinking it "would make perfect sense in a way."  However to those in power who make all the big decisions it does NOT make sense.  

1 - Why are they being phased out/retired?  How compatible are they with our current rollingstock? from an operational and maintenance perspective?
     Not being familiar with the Victorian networks, I can only assume they have been deemed obsolete.  In which case why would we take someone else's trash and
     possible troubles?  Particularly if it means they will require some level of major refit to be compatible with our network,  and our regulations etc.  

Remember ALL our current rollingstock has been purposefully designed to our requirements, specifications and regulations.  We currently have all the logistics, parts and equipment in place to maintain and service our current rolling stock.  To introduce a "NEW" but second hand set type to the fleet as a stop gap measure will mean having to purchase, outlay and install all the logistics required to maintain the new set type.  Where will all that be put?  From the political perspective, no NSW government is going purchase discarded and obsolete stock from Victoria.  Can you imagine the headlines?  How to make a world class railway by buying 2nd Hand Obsolete trains?  Political laughing stock of the nation, if not rail world.  Particularly after the immense amount of money splashed on Waratarts.

2 - All passenger rollingstock being acquired by RailCorp are required to meet strict specifications, many of which are required to comply with recommendations from the "Waterfall" inquiry.  Many of these are safety systems and features, which are now standard on Waratarts such as IEDRs, and in process of being retrofitted to OSCARs and Mills.  There is no way foreseeable that they would purchase a new set type without these and other new features.  Everything being purchased is with the view of a 40-50 year lifespan into the future.  With that organisational direction, where do 20-30 year old, clapped out second hand, not approved/accredited/certified for our network, trains fit into that vision?  For all the hassle it would involve, it isn't worth the effort or cost.
If it were that simple, the powers that be could have just sent a 4 car V-Set to China to be reverse engineered, with the instructions, make more of these, with AC traction motors, Disc Brakes, and a computerised train operating system (TOS) and other features demanded on their wish list.  Obviously it isn't that simple.

Hopefully that fresh dose of reality helps put the viability of your suggestion into perspective.
Perhaps a Left Hand operated, Overhead power converted verison of Alstom's R-160 (for NYC) which is a currently produced, and modern design, might be viable for the task.  Management however seems to love having brand new designed trains just for our network rather than just adapt already existing designs, and nearly always pay the price - refer to Millenium and Waratart fiascos if in doubt...  Reality it is, that management want more or less (perhaps with the exception of the number of carriages) what Seb pointed out :
"We need 6 car single deck trains, no guards, no station staff and signals every 20m to give us 10s headways." and "Currently, it is not the drivers role or responsibility to do anything with customer service. This is why we must also have driverless trains. I dream of a system where the workforce is eliminated, and thus the impact of the unions."

Again, the easiest way to achieve the single deck fleet is to sell the operations off to a private company to run and supply their own single deck rollingstock that the government won't have to purchase...

...such as IEDRs ...

IEDRs?  Aren't they a safety feature of rolling stock in Afghanistan?

...such as IEDRs ...

IEDRs? Aren't they a safety feature of rolling stock in Afghanistan?

Internal Emergency Door Release.

 

Your thinking IED, and hopefully not making a joke at the expense of our soliders killed by them

This is more than likely been mentioned in numerous threads, but I wanted to gauge the reaction and thoughts of what the current Liberal NSW Government is wanting to do, have single deck trains on the majority if not all rail lines.

So my thought turned to one area in particular, as the transport minister, Gladys Berejiklian, has stated and pointed out that the Bankstown Line will in fact go to a single deck status (along with parts of the illawarra lines from the city to Hurstville eventually linking up to the North West Rail Link) and it got me thinking, why not put the Bankstown Line into a single deck train status now.

But I know most of you are thinking this is crazy right? Just hear me out. The Victorian Government along with Metro Trains Melbourne Pty Ltd are phasing out their older air-conditioned Comeng trains which have been retrofitted to have desto boards inside and out (electronic none the less) and with announcements.

So why not purchase these sets which are being sold off or scrapped altogether, I mean it would make perfect sense in a way.

This would be perfect to at least test the idea of moving to a single deck and get out most of the kinks at the same time. So why don't we buy the sets to test out, trial perhaps for at least design purposes what Sydney needs and wants as a single deck trains but also what infrastructure is needed to be built or changed (more so changed but could be a few things that may need to be built)

So what are your thoughts?

others have been clear on their thoughts and I'll address some more.

DD stock and SD stock do not mix well together. DD has longer dwell times on busy platforms but carries more people to offset, SD reverse, more trains with less people and lower dwell times. SD as most metros are also have more than 2 sets of doors per car to unload faster, but you can only do this if the platform is straight enough. Look at some more curvey stations in the centre of the DD car, you can fit a car in their. Not safe for pram, wheelchair etc. having more shorter cars will help fix, but not resolve.

The route choosen for SD ie Bankstown line is not by chance. There will be a significant number of station rebuilds for the stations that lack the require straightness.

Next question, what problem are you trying to solve?

The problem the govt is trying to solve and reason it wants to go SD on some routes, not all, is to enable cheaper HR construction and operation, ie lifecycle costs. Sydney's DD are great at moving large volumes of people long distances, but it comes at a cost of green field line construction, including tunnels and high operating costs.

What the govt proposes to have is simple, fully automated trains on the new NW line running into the city via a new route from Chatswood and then into the Bankstown and Hurtsville lines. Lower construction costs for City to NWRL and lower operating costs longterm which will see further HR roll out much faster. DD's will retain the bulk of the longer haul + ESR.  Currently Cityrail has an operating subsidy of 75-80%, which is fairly bad on world standards. Potentially the new line will be less than 50%.

Sydney's DD stock are specialised orders for which there has been ongoing issues with supply for a number of years now. The last option to reduce costs was to go the chinese way, fail.

If the plan proves its worth, then once complete the new NWRL to Bankstown/Hurtsville will have lower costs than Cityrail. This should encourage a return to solving Sydney's traffic woes with Metro roll out.


Back to Mel's sets. Melbourne is desperately short on rollingstock, there is no way they would be getting rid of something thats actually viable, I think this is a warning in itself. There is also significant cost in conversion, gauge conversion, safe working, permanent closure of the centre doors etc etc.

While Melbourne is DOO, this is not an issue as sooner or later Sydney will be DOO. The A sets have started the ball rolling. The new Metro will be fully automatic. If I was below the age of 50 and a guard on Cityrail with no plans to leave, I'd be looking at learning another skill in next 5 years. Carlingford will be first cab off the rank I'd say by 2015. Realistically Sydney's trains could move to beyond DOO with the driver becoming a train manager.ie computer drives the train and the train manager monitors the computer and passengers. But I don't believe Cityrail is able to go fully auto.

Now that the OHS (opening hilarious scene) has been dealt with...

...I still think that single-deck trains are a solution looking for a problem, as far as their role on Sydney's existing railways are concerned. The only inherent problem is a greater number of passengers using each door, but this can be alleviated to an extent.

Now, my main issue with single-deck trains is that they're only better movers when fitted with longitudinal bench seats. Sure, frequency can help make up for it, but this requires complete re-signalling. I don't see this being politically acceptable; while the headlines might not be as scathing as for a buyout of the Melbourne Comeng trains, they won't exactly gush over the idea of everyone standing from Penrith and Campbelltown to the City either.

We continue to suffer from metro-envy, due to years of government foaming over the 'sexy' metro ('sexy' relative to our 'clapped-out clunkers' - political and public perception). I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is a solution looking for a problem. I sincerely do not believe that - for the existing network, at least - single-deck trains are the way forward, because to offer the same capacity, much higher frequencies must be run, and for these much higher frequencies to be run, significant work will need to be done, and I am anything but confident that this significant work will be done.

Under the unique circumstances that we've ended up in, I believe that the double-deck train is still the correct path to remain on. It can be significantly improved to streamline its efficiency. I won't go over my whole 7RER concept again, as I've beaten that to death and beyond; but I will reiterate my stance that ATO/ATP and a more efficient train layout imitating that of the Parisian RER will allow us to run a much better suburban railway - RER A is the model line, with high frequency and reliability despite interlining and double-deck trains with transverse seats.
If we want to choose a foreign railway to model ourselves after, it's the RER A of the Ile-de-France; metro-envy isn't going to get us anywhere.

But I know most of you are thinking this is crazy right? Just hear me out. The Victorian Government along with Metro Trains Melbourne Pty Ltd are phasing out their older air-conditioned Comeng trains which have been retrofitted to have desto boards inside and out (electronic none the less) and with announcements

Wait a sec... the Comeng trans are being withdrawn?


Uhh. I'm FROM Melbourne, and there are NO plans to phase out the Comeng trains anytime soon, especially now that Metro just spent a bucketload on upgrading the air conditioning. Hell, we still have Hitachi trains running around.


Don't know what crap your spouting out, but ain't right.

Westernport, it was announced over a year ago or so via the transport Victoria website with the introduction of new X'trapolis trains. The first trains to be replaced are the Hitachi trains, then the Comeng ones.

It was to help make the Melbourne railways a more modern railway

Now that the OHS (opening hilarious scene) has been dealt with...

Under the unique circumstances that we've ended up in, I believe that the double-deck train is still the correct path to remain on. It can be significantly improved to streamline its efficiency. I won't go over my whole 7RER concept again, as I've beaten that to death and beyond; but I will reiterate my stance that ATO/ATP and a more efficient train layout imitating that of the Parisian RER will allow us to run a much better suburban railway - RER A is the model line, with high frequency and reliability despite interlining and double-deck trains with transverse seats.
If we want to choose a foreign railway to model ourselves after, it's the RER A of the Ile-de-France; metro-envy isn't going to get us anywhere.

We couldn't do worse than to send our pollies on a 'fact finding' trip to Paris. The RER is something to copy, particularly line A.

And the intense frequency of Line A is done with out ATO. The equipment is there, but it's advising the driver, not taking control from them (unless they are about to SPAD).

 And you think we have Union problems. Try France. The reason RER A hasn't gone full ATO is Ile-de-France didn't want to take on the SNCF unions. I belive RER A is now being resignaled and they will be going to full ATO, as they want to squeeze even more trains in, 90 second headways isn't enough!. 8 car double deck trains at frequencies that would make your eyes water.

One another RER route (one to the North West, I can't remember the letter) has DD rolling stock with 3 doors per side. This does lose quite a few seats as the upper desk is cut in two by the middle vestibule. To avoid too much wasted space in stairs, the upper desks are 'stubs' only accessible via the car ends - you can only walk the length of the car via the lower deck. It also helps that French platforms are lower than ours, so the middle vestibule can be quite low.


Most Parisians also expect to have to change trains (to the metro) to get to their destination. Suggest Sydneysiders might have to change trains to get to their destination and they reach for their car keys.

We couldn't do worse than to send our pollies on a 'fact finding' trip to Paris. The RER is something to copy, particularly line A.

We could do far worse - we could keep calm and carry on! In all seriousness, though, pack 'em off to Paris on (and in?) the Spirit of Australia.

And the intense frequency of Line A is done with out ATO. The equipment is there, but it's advising the driver, not taking control from them (unless they are about to SPAD).

Isn't this what London Underground calls 'coded manual'? I really, really like it - it's a perfect balance between manual driving and automation.

And you think we have Union problems. Try France. The reason RER A hasn't gone full ATO is Ile-de-France didn't want to take on the SNCF unions. I belive RER A is now being resignaled and they will be going to full ATO, as they want to squeeze even more trains in, 90 second headways isn't enough!. 8 car double deck trains at frequencies that would make your eyes water.

10 cars, actually. 10-car DD stock running 40tph, and these are long cars (like V set cars). We'd be set for decades if we could get 7-car RER-style stock to run 36tph.

One another RER route (one to the North West, I can't remember the letter) has DD rolling stock with 3 doors per side. This does lose quite a few seats as the upper desk is cut in two by the middle vestibule. To avoid too much wasted space in stairs, the upper desks are 'stubs' only accessible via the car ends - you can only walk the length of the car via the lower deck. It also helps that French platforms are lower than ours, so the middle vestibule can be quite low.

Only for the SNCF ones on RER E. The RATP ones on RER A have upper deck access from the centre vestibule also.

I'll give in to temptation and mention my 7RER concept train. Basically, a train of 7V dimensions (78' cars) and three doors per side per car. It has 828 seats, which compares very favourably against the 8A's 894. I believe an RER-style train is perfectly viable for Sydney, and will form an integral part of an RER-style solution for CityRail.

Most Parisians also expect to have to change trains (to the metro) to get to their destination. Suggest Sydneysiders might have to change trains to get to their destination and they reach for their car keys.

They'll throw a hissy fit first. I've written at great length about the need to change the mindset that has the cattle so fixated on 'their' one-seat ride, and I'll dig up the post if you want.

Most Parisians also expect to have to change trains (to the metro) to get to their destination. Suggest Sydneysiders might have to change trains to get to their destination and they reach for their car keys.

They'll throw a hissy fit first. I've written at great length about the need to change the mindset that has the cattle so fixated on 'their' one-seat ride, and I'll dig up the post if you want.

The reason for this is simple: in Sydney PAX *hate* changing modes or even trains because our frequencies on all modes suck, almost as much as our interchange facilities.  A "simple" interchange typically takes 10min *plus* the wait time for the connecting mode, which if you are lucky is operating on a 15 min frequency, but more likely 30.  An interchange can add 30min to a journey, and you wouldn't find many Parisians or Londoners standing around waiting to change for that long.  Until *both* routes are operating on a sub 5 min frequency *and* there are quality interchange facilities (and that is certainly not ST to the Central Suburban platforms) then PAX are going to continue to avoid interchanges at all costs, and I can't say I blame them.

The reason for this is simple: in Sydney PAX *hate* changing modes or even trains because our frequencies on all modes suck, almost as much as our interchange facilities. A "simple" interchange typically takes 10min *plus* the wait time for the connecting mode, which if you are lucky is operating on a 15 min frequency, but more likely 30. An interchange can add 30min to a journey, and you wouldn't find many Parisians or Londoners standing around waiting to change for that long. Until *both* routes are operating on a sub 5 min frequency *and* there are quality interchange facilities (and that is certainly not ST to the Central Suburban platforms) then PAX are going to continue to avoid interchanges at all costs, and I can't say I blame them.

I'll admit my main gripe about the anti-interchange mentality when I made the original post railing against it (the one a few months ago, not the one just now) was actually about bus-bus interchange, where the resources freed up by a wholesale move to a connections-based network can be ploughed straight back in to provide the frequency required.

The quality of interchange infrastructure certainly leaves much to be desired, and much capital expenditure will be needed to improve it; however, the frequency issue is more about labour - in theory, we should be able to sustain near-peak frequencies, but we don't.

Case in point: no CityRail line apart from the Illawarra & Eastern Suburbs Line sees more than six trains per hour off-peak. Most don't see more than four. The Western Line, which sees around sixteen trains per hour of its own (i.e. excluding Blue Mountains services ex-Sydney Terminal) in the afternoon peak, only sees four trains an hour off-peak. This level of service really isn't very useful at all for spontaneous journeys.

I'm quite sure this is due to the high cost of running CityRail, and one of the highest costs in any transport system is labour. I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions on what the way forward is.

I'm quite sure this is due to the high cost of running CityRail, and one of the highest costs in any transport system is labour. I'll let everyone draw their own conclusions on what the way forward is.

I have a suggestion: get rid of some of the freeloaders who have nothing to do with actually running trains, even indirectly, like the people who tell front line workers how they can get a better sleep while they are on night shift (having never been shiftworkers themselves) and rearrange their rosters, or what shiftworkers should eat at night to remain alert and not become obese. Or the bureaucrats who have thousand page lists of theoretical responsibilities (coupled with hefty pay packets), but don't really do anything productive at all. I could go on, but there's a start, and the savings would be many millions per year.

What's that - the Government is already in the process of doing that? I'll believe it when I see it...

I think utelising the old Victorian Comeng single deck trains would be a good move to get commuters used to going back on the single deck trains. The only problem I can see is that when a train from Bankstown-Lidcombe or Liverpool via Sydenham goes around the city circle, it doesn't go back to the same line, instead it can go to the Airport line and Campbelltown which doesn't make sense to me.

Commuters will get on whatever train pulls up to the platform they're waiting on. Even an interurban pulled by an 81 Class that clearly says "Not Taking Passengers" on the platform screens. Good fun shooing them away though.  

Here's another problem. Melbourne's Comengs are both wider and longer than the current fleet. Platform edges would need to be shaved back which in turn widens the gap for the current cityrail fleet. Cut-in on corners is also going to be a problem. If you have two of these passing each other at various curves on the network you run the risk of opening the side up on the outer train. I believe there's a SAFE Notice out about operating some of the current fleet with failed (open) plug-doors for this reason...

I have a suggestion: get rid of some of the freeloaders who have nothing to do with actually running trains, even indirectly, like the people who tell front line workers how they can get a better sleep while they are on night shift (having never been shiftworkers themselves) and rearrange their rosters, or what shiftworkers should eat at night to remain alert and not become obese. Or the bureaucrats who have thousand page lists of theoretical responsibilities (coupled with hefty pay packets), but don't really do anything productive at all. I could go on, but there's a start, and the savings would be many millions per year.

We can't do that. Who'll keep the troughs empty with all those snouts gone?

If you want to improve passenger movements, ask the people on the ground. The Drivers, Guards and station staff. Listen to what they say, vet their ideas then prioritise and implement them. While its great having consultants, unless they've done the time in the industry, all their pretty bits of paper that say they're smarter than us are worthless.

I believe there's a SAFE Notice out about operating some of the current fleet with failed (open) plug-doors for this reason...

Out of gauge working applies, although I believe the open door situation has occurred in transit a number of times (unbeknownst to Signallers etc) without any contact being made with lineside structures. I'd like to see a photo of the worst case scenario, though.