bramt Deputy Commissioner

Can it be reactivated by touching on?
railblogger


I believe that you have to put money on it to 're-activate' it.
don_dunstan


It's such a shame this keeps coming up, a ghost myki can't get rid of. http://www.danielbowen.com/2012/05/07/myki-90-day-expiry/
The one thing they should do now is automatically return money to your account if it's not successfully collected. If they did that they should also reduce the time limit to 30 days. That way people won't feel the money is lost in a failed transaction somewhere.

Also, if you threw out a myki because you'd topped it up online months ago and no money appeared on the card, that's fine, you haven't thrown money away as the money was never put on the card successfully. You'd have to call myki to refund the failed transaction, which may be difficult without the card number?
If you threw out a myki with actual money on it, well, um, I can get rid of that heavy shrapnel in your wallet too Smile

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  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
If you are an older person (as my friends are) you would have no idea about trying to get that money back off your card; I don't think it was a large amount anyway but enough to be annoying.  Being from the country and not regular users you wouldn't even know where to start and you certainly wouldn't have it registered on-line to do all those whizz-bang things it's supposed to do.  So when they tried to use their cards and they failed they just assumed they had lost their money and threw them away - not everyone is as savvy as you are supposed to be with Myki.  I mean, for God's sake, the writing on the bus/tram validators is tiny enough for people with normal eyesight like me to read - I can't imagine what it must be like trying to use it when you are a bit blind.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
If you are an older person (as my friends are) you would have no idea about trying to get that money back off your card; I don't think it was a large amount anyway but enough to be annoying.  Being from the country and not regular users you wouldn't even know where to start and you certainly wouldn't have it registered on-line to do all those whizz-bang things it's supposed to do.  So when they tried to use their cards and they failed they just assumed they had lost their money and threw them away - not everyone is as savvy as you are supposed to be with Myki.  I mean, for God's sake, the writing on the bus/tram validators is tiny enough for people with normal eyesight like me to read - I can't imagine what it must be like trying to use it when you are a bit blind.
don_dunstan

Maybe the Australian Electoral Comission can sell the magnifying glasses that are being used for the upcoming federal election to Myki after the election is over for a bargain price....Myki can then give them to anyone who wants them who has problems with reading small print.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Maybe the Australian Electoral Comission can sell the magnifying glasses that are being used for the upcoming federal election to Myki after the election is over for a bargain price....Myki can then give them to anyone who wants them who has problems with reading small print.
"xxxxlbear"


Bear - you're a nut . . . I'm proud of you.Laughing
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
Bear - you're a nut . . . I'm proud of you.Laughing
Valvegear

Um, err....shucks, thank you! Embarassed
That's the nicest that anyone has been about me all week ShockedLaughing
  bramt Deputy Commissioner

I had the sad duty of telling them they had actually been 'locked out' of their accounts because they hadn't used them for four months.
don_dunstan

OK, seriously what are you talking about? Please read dbowen's post I linked and remind yourself how myki works. You can never be 'locked out' of your 'account' for 'not using them'.

If you are an older person (as my friends are) you would have no idea about trying to get that money back off your card; I don't think it was a large amount anyway but enough to be annoying.  Being from the country and not regular users you wouldn't even know where to start and you certainly wouldn't have it registered on-line to do all those whizz-bang things it's supposed to do.  So when they tried to use their cards and they failed they just assumed they had lost their money and threw them away - not everyone is as savvy as you are supposed to be with Myki.  I mean, for God's sake, the writing on the bus/tram validators is tiny enough for people with normal eyesight like me to read - I can't imagine what it must be like trying to use it when you are a bit blind.
don_dunstan


There's only a few situations where you can't use money on your card:
*It's been more than 90 days since you did an online top up, and you can't collect it. It hasn't gone, you just have to wait a day. You can still use any other money on the card
*An automatic top-up has been declined by your bank (auto top-up is set up by you online to top up your myki money if it falls below a threshold, or every 28 days if you have a pass)
*The card is 4 years old and has expired
*The card is broken
*You've reported it stolen

What situation were you talking about? If the card is 4 years old, the validator tells you what to do when you try to touch on. If you can't read the admittedly tiny text, you can try on the bigger top up machines and press zoom. You can still see the balance on the card, so in no sense is your money 'gone'. In either situation the solution is surely what any reasonable person would do anyway: see a station attendant to take your old card and transfer the balance.
In all other situations, you actually have to register the card online first, which means it'd be 'easy' to transfer any 'missing' money.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
see a station attendant
brant

Who are available at how many stations again?  Or on board how many trams?  And how many bus drivers are able to sort out any sort of problem on the road?  The attitude seems to be "No Myki no ride" as reported in this topic and in a number of local newspapers around town.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
see a station attendant to take your old card and transfer the balance.
"brant"

For a long time we have had one tame Myki apologist who is out of touch with reality; now we have another.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
Who are available at how many stations again?  Or on board how many trams?  And how many bus drivers are able to sort out any sort of problem on the road?  The attitude seems to be "No Myki no ride" as reported in this topic and in a number of local newspapers around town.
Gwiwer

And now that V/line are partially onboard with Myki (only interurban services are covered by Myki), the number of stations that are staffed are even more limited than metro stations, so ones options are severely limited if ones Myki card fails, and one is at one of the large number of V/Line stations that are unattended.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
If you can't read the admittedly tiny text, you can try on the bigger top up machines and press zoom. You can still see the balance on the card, so in no sense is your money 'gone'.

In either situation the solution is surely what any reasonable person would do anyway: see a station attendant to take your old card and transfer the balance.

In all other situations, you actually have to register the card online first, which means it'd be 'easy' to transfer any 'missing' money.
bramt

Listen to yourself - you're blaming the user as is typical with anyone connected to Myki.

"Go to a top-up machine and press zoom" - how the frig would an irregular user know that?

"See a Station Attendant" - that's plainly ridiculous and you should know it.  What proportion of stations are staffed?  Less than ten percent?

"Register on-line first?" Another hilarious joke.  Why would a very occasional user want to go though the rigmarole of registered a public transport ticket on-line, with a set of logins?  Why? Another case of the user having to meet the needs of the system instead of the other way round.

So - try and explain to me what happened to my friends from the country when they hadn't used their Myki cards for several months, came to Melbourne and tried to touch on and were 'declined' or whatever (they said it just didn't work) which resulted in them throwing their cards in the bin.  I read Daniel Bowen's post and I still don't understand.  Perhaps I'm one of those stupid people you were alluding to.

What happened?  Plain English please.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
The attitude seems to be "No Myki no ride" as reported in this topic and in a number of local newspapers around town.
Gwiwer

I saw it happen last weekend as I said in my earlier post.  The bus driver was quite rude to the tourists actually - I felt really embarrassed.  Still, it helps keep the numbers down on public transport and that's good for the toll-ways.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
What happened?  Plain English please.
don_dunstan
Do you know if they did an online top-up more than 90 days before travelling, or if they had enough money to touch on? Apart from a faulty card, those are the only two scenarios I can think of where an un-registered card won't work.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
Has the possibility that it simply failed to work occurred to you?

All devices are capable of failure.  They don't require human intervention to achieve this.

The fact remains that Myki does not adequately serve a significant proportion of those who might use public transport and there is inadequate fall-back for when things go wrong.    Myki assumes the user is wrong when the system doesn't work as it should.

If all stations were staffed first train to last train, if it were possible to purchase a single-use ticket or even a gold-coin authority to travel voucher in lieu of a functional Myki then we might have made a step towards common sense.

Unfortunately common sense and public transport are seldom comfortable business partners and we have a ticketing system which works only if the user does what the system requires which first entails a modest understanding of the system.  It does not allow point-of-entry ticketing in the majority of cases amd in all cases requires pre-ordering of a card or the purchase (rental as I prefer to describe it as the card remains the property of PT> ) of a card before loading value.

I will continue to press for single-use ticketing to be available at all railway stations, as a basic coin-in-slot machine on all trams and available from bus drivers.  That doesn't have to include a range of fares.  It is simply a fixed price single-use ticket which permits use of the public transport system by the public it is intended to serve.  Including those who are visiting, making a once-a-year trip or require emergency transport for what ever reason.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Has the possibility that it simply failed to work occurred to you?

All devices are capable of failure.  They don't require human intervention to achieve this.

The fact remains that Myki does not adequately serve a significant proportion of those who might use public transport and there is inadequate fall-back for when things go wrong.    Myki assumes the user is wrong when the system doesn't work as it should.
Gwiwer
It's possible. By the way I just realized that an online top-up won't work with an un-registered card!

If all stations were staffed first train to last train, if it were possible to purchase a single-use ticket or even a gold-coin authority to travel voucher in lieu of a functional Myki then we might have made a step towards common sense. Unfortunately common sense and public transport are seldom comfortable business partners and we have a ticketing system which works only if the user does what the system requires which first entails a modest understanding of the system. It does not allow point-of-entry ticketing in the majority of cases amd in all cases requires pre-ordering of a card or the purchase (rental as I prefer to describe it as the card remains the property of PT> ) of a card before loading value. I will continue to press for single-use ticketing to be available at all railway stations, as a basic coin-in-slot machine on all trams and available from bus drivers. That doesn't have to include a range of fares. It is simply a fixed price single-use ticket which permits use of the public transport system by the public it is intended to serve. Including those who are visiting, making a once-a-year trip or require emergency transport for what ever reason.
Gwiwer
Totally agree with this statement. The short-term ticket option should never have been taken away.

Regarding the coin-only machines, wouldn't it be better to have conductors? They take up less space and can improve safety on trams.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
Without reawakening the issue of conductors on trams as such the argument that they take up less space and can improve safety isn't proven to my mind.  A small machine can easily be located near the driver's cabin bulkhead on Z, A and B classes and in the standing area amidships of W, C and D classes.   It doesn't need to be anything like the size of a Metcard TVM and could probably be less than a quarter of that size.  Many railways use similar machines typically at unattended (or part-time attended) stations in order to provide some evidence of where and when a passenger has boarded in the event they are unable to purchase a "proper" ticket.  Any fee paid is then deducted when a ticket is issued which can be by on-board staff or at an interchange.  Machines are simple and only require insertion of a coin in return for which a basic paper receipt is produced showing origin, date and time of issue.

Whether a conductor improves safety is largely a matter for the individual conductor.  The Bracks government placed Tram Attendants on to apparently random trips mostly in or near the City but the initiative wasn't taken forward by the then two tram franchisees.  Those staff have mostly moved on to other employment and only a few remain with YT.  Their presence was appreciated by many and loathed by some.  Perhaps because those "some" were precisely the sort of passenger YT doesn't want namely serial fare evaders and those few who use trams as mobile shooting galleries.

But how much safer did trams become?  It's hard to quantify since there were still trips, falls, pedestrian knockdowns and other incidents.  There were still assaults (verbal and very occasionally physical) including upon those staff concerned.  They were able to provide a human touch and dispense travel information.  They were handy at times of service disruption as extra bodies to attend stops and advise alternate arrangements.  And for a short period until the TVMs were modified they sold daily tickets though at a premium price.  Were the trams actually safer?  I don't think it's possible to quantify and I believe likewise back in the days of on-board connies.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Gwiwer, as usual what you say makes way too much sense.

In relation to my friends and their failed Myki's, I wasn't there so I can't ascertain the cause of their failure - however - my flatmate had two cards fail in quick succession and I feel it was probably because of the way he kept it in his wallet (slight bend).  I think that small amount of pressure was enough to destroy the internal aerial because he's kept it out of the wallet now and there hasn't been a failure since; very annoying because supposedly it wasn't going to have the same kind of failures as Metcard.  It would certainly explain why my friend's cards failed; one bend (for example, in your pocket) and it's rooted.

I also can't agree with you enough about the obstacles that this stupid 'no short term ticketing' produces - what an embarrassment.  If your card does fail to read for whatever reason, too bad.  Also, talking about safety on trams I was nearly assaulted going home on the 72 tram some months ago.  A drunken thug was threatening these poor young girls on the tram and I told him to leave them alone - he promptly came over to me and pounded the wall right next to my head but I stood my ground and didn't flinch (I'm a fairly muscle bound bloke and he was a loud-mouthed little weed anyway, I don't know what he was trying to prove).  He got off at the next stop, and to their credit some of the other passengers started swearing at him to "get the **** off the tram you little a-hole".  I was pretty shaken by that experience, even more disturbing that it was in the middle of the day.  If I had actually been hurt I would have sued Yarra Trams and the State Government for failing to provide a safe environment, no question about it - go straight for the government, don't muck around with silly 'victims of crime' claims.

They probably made a decision years ago that it was cheaper to pay out such claims than it would be to provide staff on either trams or stations.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
A small machine can easily be located near the driver's cabin bulkhead on Z, A and B classes and in the standing area amidships of W, C and D classes.   It doesn't need to be anything like the size of a Metcard TVM and could probably be less than a quarter of that size.  Many railways use similar machines typically at unattended (or part-time attended) stations in order to provide some evidence of where and when a passenger has boarded in the event they are unable to purchase a "proper" ticket.  Any fee paid is then deducted when a ticket is issued which can be by on-board staff or at an interchange.  Machines are simple and only require insertion of a coin in return for which a basic paper receipt is produced showing origin, date and time of issue.
Gwiwer

Isn't it the case that they actually DO have the ticket machines AND about twenty pallets of disposable short-term tickets in a warehouse in Rowville but they won't install them?
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
I believe so.

And in that there is also a precedent inasmuch as Metcard hand-held readers were always available for AOs to use.  They were kept (in Camberwell depot for YT staff) fully charged and ready to go but were never used allegedly because the display was inadequate under certain conditions of lighting.

Myki is not our first ticketing system to have a shed-load (literally) of hardware stacked and not used.  But paid for by the tax-payers of this state.
  bramt Deputy Commissioner

Are you guys serious? I was just trying to squash the 'your myki expires if you don't use it for 90 days' myth, and you all carry on about station attendants and short term tickets. No wonder the myth persists.

For a long time we have had one tame Myki apologist who is out of touch with reality; now we have another.
valvegear

I'm reject that, I'm just pointing out how the system currently functions. You know, offering help to those who don't know.

Listen to yourself - you're blaming the user as is typical with anyone connected to Myki.

"Go to a top-up machine and press zoom" - how the frig would an irregular user know that?

"See a Station Attendant" - that's plainly ridiculous and you should know it.  What proportion of stations are staffed?  Less than ten percent?

"Register on-line first?" Another hilarious joke.  Why would a very occasional user want to go though the rigmarole of registered a public transport ticket on-line, with a set of logins?  Why? Another case of the user having to meet the needs of the system instead of the other way round.

So - try and explain to me what happened to my friends from the country when they hadn't used their Myki cards for several months, came to Melbourne and tried to touch on and were 'declined' or whatever (they said it just didn't work) which resulted in them throwing their cards in the bin.  I read Daniel Bowen's post and I still don't understand.  Perhaps I'm one of those stupid people you were alluding to.

What happened?  Plain English please.
don_dunstan


Well, I was hoping you'd shed light on that, seeing as it's your story. If you read my own post, you'd realise I only mentioned registering online as a possible explanation as to why the card was declined.
As I said, there's only a few situations where you can't use money on your card:

*It's been more than 90 days since you did an online top up, and you can't collect it. It hasn't gone, you just have to wait a day. You can still use any other money on the card.
*An automatic top-up has been declined by your bank (auto top-up is set up by you online to top up your myki money if it falls below a threshold, or every 28 days if you have a pass)
*You've reported it stolen
I

You seem fairly certain the cards weren't registered online, so that rules out those possibilities. You're left with:

*The card is 4 years old and has expired
*The card is broken
Or one other possibility: the validator is broken. But I would hope anyone would try another validator before throwing away their card....
Nothing whatever to do with a 90 day expiry for not using your card. My money's on the 4 year expiry, especially if the validator said declined, as opposed to not reacting at all. You can bash myki for this all you want, but all cards expire, and no metcard or paper ticket lasts 4 years. (Ironically, if they had registered the card, they would have been sent a letter advising them it's about to expire).

Station Attendants: Well you don't have to see a station attendant, you can mail it off instead.

As for short term tickets, has VLine actually said paper tickets will be completely abolished, or do they plan to keep them on? If so, conductors could easily be able to sell you a myki as bus drivers can, although you're supposed to buy your ticket before you travel on VLine, even before myki.

And short term tickets on trams? Well I agree completely, of course it's needed.
  ab123 Chief Train Controller

Haven't you realised bramt that this thread is for complaining about everything that is wrong with Myki, everything that should have been done and remembering the days of old when there were connies on trams. Silly you for offering some sort of suggestion as to how the system actually works!
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Unfortunately, officialdom refuses to acknowledge that there's anything wrong with Myki and the lack of a tourist-orientated alternative. So the masochists among us keep bashing our heads against the wall, whilst the "who gives a damn?" system continues.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Bramt: Yeah sorry, please don't think I'm taking my anger out on you personally but I've had lots of visitors from the country, interstate and also a friend from London come and visit and when they enquire about "how do I use the trams/trains now?" it really makes me cringe when I have to explain the rigmarole around our non-disposable card system and how it works.  Once you explain how it works most people say "oh, well I won't bother while I'm here, I don't want to spend $6 on a card I'll never use.".  I actually tried keeping a 'loan' card for visitors at one stage but it broke after someone bent it and now I don't bother; my friend from London described Myki as "Oyster's nuff nuff cousin" (that made me laugh!).  This situation with not catering for occasional users/visitors is simply unacceptable, there's no other way to describe it.

As for short term tickets, has VLine actually said paper tickets will be completely abolished, or do they plan to keep them on?
Bramt
I don't think technically they can do that since many V/Line trips can't be done with Myki anyway.  My own Myki appears to be playing up I noticed recently so I'm not keeping any more than five dollars or so on it in case it fails (since it's not registered) so it's not really feasible for me to use it on V/Line at the moment anyway.  Knowing my luck it will fail the instant I put any sizable amount on it -
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
Revenue stated many pages ago (might even have been back in "Myki 2") that while London has the Rolls Royce of systems in Oyster we have the Holden Barina (or similar).  

I have no idea what London pays for Oyster nor how the finance is structured.  The fact is that Oyster works, works well, does so alongside single-use ticketing and daily Travelcards (mainly aimed at tourists who won't have / don't need an Oyster these days) and operates / apportions revenue across many operators most of whom also manage their own and the National Rail fares and ticketing structure alongside it.  It is also possible to pay cash to bus drivers and station staff at almost all stations almost all the time - and there are coin and card-operated ticket machines as well.  

For the money we are paying I do think we deserve better than we have.  And we deserve much better than to shun our tourists and occasional visitors by making the ticketing system unfriendly to use and unnecessarily complex with it.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

and you don't need to go to London to find a decent smartcard system. Adelaide's Metrocard is the equivalent of our myki, except that you can buy single trip and daily tickets from bus drivers, and from a machine in the trams which is about a quarter the size of the old machines we had. Plus, of course, for people like me, Seniors card holders get free travel outside the peaks, but that's nothing particularly to do with the ticketing system. Riding the tram from Glenelg into the city yesterday (Sunday) I reckon about 85% used their smartcard, others had their card ticket or bought one from the machine.
  bramt Deputy Commissioner

Bramt: Yeah sorry, please don't think I'm taking my anger out on you personally but I've had lots of visitors from the country, interstate and also a friend from London come and visit and when they enquire about "how do I use the trams/trains now?" it really makes me cringe when I have to explain the rigmarole around our non-disposable card system and how it works.  Once you explain how it works most people say "oh, well I won't bother while I'm here, I don't want to spend $6 on a card I'll never use.".  I actually tried keeping a 'loan' card for visitors at one stage but it broke after someone bent it and now I don't bother; my friend from London described Myki as "Oyster's nuff nuff cousin" (that made me laugh!).  This situation with not catering for occasional users/visitors is simply unacceptable, there's no other way to describe it.

I don't think technically they can do that since many V/Line trips can't be done with Myki anyway.  My own Myki appears to be playing up I noticed recently so I'm not keeping any more than five dollars or so on it in case it fails (since it's not registered) so it's not really feasible for me to use it on V/Line at the moment anyway.  Knowing my luck it will fail the instant I put any sizable amount on it -
don_dunstan
Fair enough.
Of course, if it does fail you don't lose the money on it. Whenever you top up that transaction is logged to the 'back end' database, meaning they can determine the balance of the card before it failed, registered or not. (Swap it at a station or mail it back. And I get that's an inconvenience most people wouldn't want, but try refunding a defective single trip metcard...). Either way, with the 2hr/zone based fare rules, and better off-peak rules, you'd make the $6 card cost back in only a handful of VLine trips. I get that eventually making back the cost of the 'compulsory' card isn't the point, but really the VLine myki fares are a bargain. Just saying.

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