melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
No correction required.  

Any ticketing system should be able to answer the fundamental question of "How much is it from A to B?" with a single cash value.  If you get discounts by purchasing a particular product or using the system in a particular way then great.  But Myki means there is no answer for those who ask that question.  That is very off-putting for anyone less than familiar with public transport such as our many visitors.

"We'd like to go to Sovereign Hill for the day.  How much will that be?"  
"Well Sir if you first buy this card and just do that it you need to load value but if you also do this and something else you need to add a different value .... "
"I just want to know how much it is to Sovereign Hill for two and two kids"
"I'm sorry Sir there isn't an definitive answer to that question"
"Thanks - We'll go rent a car"

I have already heard conversations in the workplace regarding the cost of taking the family to the Royal Melbourne Show (a traditional day out often by train) next week.  People who only use the train on this one occasion a year (if that) are comparing the prices from previous years.  It's more than doubled if you add in renting a Myki.

FAIL
Gwiwer
it should be easy question to answer:

a family of 4 with 2 kids: $92.76 if they need a myki or if they all got a  myki: $74.76

a family of four travelling in off-peak with need of buying a myki card will cost:
2 * full fare myki ($6 * 2)
2 * child myki  ($3 * 2)
Total = $18.00

2* full fare zone 1 to 8 daily cap: $49.84 (24.92 each)
2 * child fare zone 1 to 8 daily cap:$24.92 (12.46 each)
total = $74.76

if they hire a car:

it will cost:$69.00 for car hire +
fuel = 48.00
total = $117.00

the question is -  is there time worth :$24.25 or $6.06 per person extra if they travel by car

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  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Gwiwer has a point about unknown costs though, it should be easy to work out but it depends on the reliable operation of the validators at your destination; I know from experience that it's not a given that they'll be working.  On V/Line the system is much more complicated now under Mickey than it was under a cash ticket arrangement because you have discounts included for weekend metro caps, time of travel is now automatically adjusted for peak and off-peak etc.  So you need to give the precise time of travel to get a fully accurate price; and as with Metro services, what happens if you get somewhere relatively remote and unstaffed like (say) Ballan and the validators aren't working?  What sort of full price cap would you be up for?

It's certainly a lot more complicated now.
  TheMetman Locomotive Driver

Location: gippsland
what happens if you get somewhere relatively remote and unstaffed like (say) Ballan and the validators aren't working?  
don_dunstan
I'm sure a conductor can touch you on or off if that's the case.
  ab123 Chief Train Controller

I'm sure a conductor can touch you on or off if that's the case.
TheMetman
Conductors can only touch you on
  TheMetman Locomotive Driver

Location: gippsland
Ok, but still there shouldn't be a problem if one of a few validators are broken.
  Gauntlet Chief Commissioner

Location:
What happens if you get somewhere relatively remote and unstaffed like (say) Ballan and the validators aren't working?
don_dunstan
I think Eaglehawk could be a problem.
It only has one validator, so if you walk back to Bendigo station to touch off  by the time you get there your 2 hours will probably be up, so you'll get charged the default fare anyway.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

I think Eaglehawk could be a problem.
It only has one validator, so if you walk back to Bendigo station to touch off  by the time you get there your 2 hours will probably be up, so you'll get charged the default fare anyway.
"Gauntlet"

You may be able to touch off on a local bus, but the idea of a single validator anywhere is a concern. At Eaglehawk the default fare may be to Swan Hill or Melbourne, depending on the direction of travel.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
You may be able to touch off on a local bus, but the idea of a single validator anywhere is a concern. At Eaglehawk the default fare may be to Swan Hill or Melbourne, depending on the direction of travel.
duttonbay
I didn't think Swan Hill was in a myki zone?
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

I didn't think Swan Hill was in a myki zone?
"railblogger"

Ah, very true.  In which case it doesn't matter whether you touch off at Eaglehawk, since that will be the default fare.
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
Ah, very true.  In which case it doesn't matter whether you touch off at Eaglehawk, since that will be the default fare.
duttonbay
It does matter because you will be charged a peak hour fare and not off-peak fare!
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Ok, but still there shouldn't be a problem if one of a few validators are broken.
TheMetman
My experience is that if one is playing up then usually they'll all be buggered.  Sometimes they don't appear to be broken but they still refuse to touch you off; a good clue to that is when they indicate the incorrect time, like they're 'jammed' or something.

I think the situation could be helped by not locating them out in the weather - my observation is that they are vulnerable to water damage.
  TheMetman Locomotive Driver

Location: gippsland
My experience is that if one is playing up then usually they'll all be buggered.  Sometimes they don't appear to be broken but they still refuse to touch you off; a good clue to that is when they indicate the incorrect time, like they're 'jammed' or something.

I think the situation could be helped by not locating them out in the weather - my observation is that they are vulnerable to water damage.
don_dunstan
You can report it to PTV about it on the day or when the travel history gets updated every 24hours. They should give you a refund if they find that a country myki validator isn't working.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
My experience is that if one is playing up then usually they'll all be buggered.  Sometimes they don't appear to be broken but they still refuse to touch you off; a good clue to that is when they indicate the incorrect time, like they're 'jammed' or something.

I think the situation could be helped by not locating them out in the weather - my observation is that they are vulnerable to water damage.
don_dunstan

Funny you should say that, when I used Malmsbury station the other weekend, I noticed that the Myki touch on/off thing was located out in the open at the end of the station platform near where enters and leaves the platform. And I am almost certain that the bigger machine that one uses to top up Myki cards with, was also located on the platform out in the open with no protection from the weather as well. My initial thoughts were that it is no wonder that these elctronic machines fail. Places like Malmsbury are known for its very cold (and wet) weather during Winter Confused
  ab123 Chief Train Controller

Gwiwer has a point about unknown costs though, it should be easy to work out but it depends on the reliable operation of the validators at your destination; I know from experience that it's not a given that they'll be working.  On V/Line the system is much more complicated now under Mickey than it was under a cash ticket arrangement because you have discounts included for weekend metro caps, time of travel is now automatically adjusted for peak and off-peak etc.  So you need to give the precise time of travel to get a fully accurate price; and as with Metro services, what happens if you get somewhere relatively remote and unstaffed like (say) Ballan and the validators aren't working?  What sort of full price cap would you be up for?

It's certainly a lot more complicated now.
don_dunstan

It already was complicated!

Peak/off peak
Metcard - Mon-Fri peak: Before 9am
V/line - Arriving before 9am, departing between 4 -6pm & all weekend full fare

Weekends
Metcard - Saturday Peak fares, Sunday Sunday saver
V/Line - Full fare off peak, concession peak

Public Holidays:
Metcard: Peak fares
V/Line: full fare & concession off peak

Travel after 6pm:
Metcard - only 2 hour ticket required
V/Line - no such deal

Then there was Zone B which just confused things even more! No off peak singles, can only get an off peak return, can get a yearly full fare but not concession, Date to Date not available, no family savers. Was cheaper to travel from Sunbury to Gisborne than it was Sunbury to Clarkefield.

Thats just some examples and it used to be even more complicated with V/line peak/off peak fares!
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
And dont forget:
1. V/Line peak fares apply for concession card holders on weekends for those who buy paper tickets at the V/Line booking office whereas
those with concessions who use Myki on weekends get off peak fares.

2. V/Line passengers who buy paper tickets pay for distance travelled whereas
those who use Myki pay for zones travelled.
This can save the passenger a considerable amout of money if they use Myki.

3. V/Line passengers who buy paper tickets do not get the 2 hour window in which the return trip is free if undertaken within 2 hours of starting the initial trip whereas those who use Myki do.

And the interesting thing is, none of the 3 points I have mentioned are promoted by either Myki, V/Line, or PTV.

And when I approached a booking clerk at Geelong recently, she said she knew about the peak/off peak thing, but didnt realise about the fare differences between V/Line and Myki. And that is surprising as she sad she had received training for Myki and its use on V/Line, but wasn't advised to tell passengers buying paper tickets that Myki was cheaper
  cfs203 Beginner

a family of 4 with 2 kids $92.76 if they need a myki or if they all got a  myki $74.76
melbtrip

Or $49.60 if they use V/Line paper tickets, which are still available.


Day Return, Economy
1 x Off-Peak, Family Traveller, Full Fare = $24.80 (1 Adult, 2 Children)
1 x Full Fare, Off-peak, = $24.80 per passenger
Total Cost = $49.60
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
You can report it to PTV about it on the day or when the travel history gets updated every 24hours. They should give you a refund if they find that a country myki validator isn't working.
TheMetman
Oh, please.  I have to waste my time and money on that?  Most people would just wear it rather than bother doing that, I know from experience in dealing with broken validators at Hawthorn station that it just isn't worth spending time and mobile credit on calling these half-wits to try and get a few dollars back.  They would know full well that's what would happen in most cases.  The house wins again... as usual.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Funny you should say that, when I used Malmsbury station the other weekend, I noticed that the Myki touch on/off thing was located out in the open at the end of the station platform near where enters and leaves the platform. And I am almost certain that the bigger machine that one uses to top up Myki cards with, was also located on the platform out in the open with no protection from the weather as well. My initial thoughts were that it is no wonder that these elctronic machines fail. Places like Malmsbury are known for its very cold (and wet) weather during Winter Confused
xxxxlbear
There was heavy snow there a few winters ago, very romantic and postcard-like but not good for exposed electronic equipment I'm sure. They're setting them up to fail by leaving them out in the open; they have enough trouble staying operational under cover but the addition of hot sun and pelting rain would almost certainly accelerate the buggering up process.  I've also noticed the screens are particularly sensitive to going opaque in the sun making them impossible to read.

They just shouldn't do it, full-stop.
  thadocta Chief Commissioner

Location: Katoomba
Tota;;y off-topic, relating to the Opal rollout in Sydney, but still relevant to the Myki thread.

Here in Sydney they are placing the validatots well away from the station area.

In Wentworth Falls, where there are car-parks on both sides of the station, they have three poles at the bpttom of the steps BEFORE you try and enter the station, the other side of the line has two poles, again, before you even try and climb the steps/

Katoomba, Lawson and Springwood all have the poles in the subway, so that you can touch-on well before you get anywhere near the paid area, and also in weather protected areas.

Is this the same with myKi? is everything close to the paid area, or are some things remote?

Dave
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
From what I have seen some Myki hardware is exposed to a certain degree of weather though is placed under a basic shelter at the least.  Everything I have noted is at the entrance to the "paid area".

Of interest with the roll-out of Opal to Sydney buses I noted Gladys advising in a media interview that she expected there would be delays and inconvenience as people got used to the new system.  It is possible to "tap in" only at the front door but to "tap out" (Sydney's terminology) at either door.

Gladys was asked why it wasn't possible to tap in at the back door and replied "We don't think it's appropriate to have more than one tap-in point".  Perhaps she has learned from the huge own-goal London scored by making their three-door artics open-boarding (i.e. board at any door).  You were required to touch in your Oyster as you boarded but could do so in any doorway.  It was estimated that fare evasion jumped from around 5% to 75% as everyone jumped in the back doors and without driver supervision (however passive that was) simply failed to touch in and pay for their trip.

Those artics swallowed up massive queues in seconds but have left London for other pastures.  They were considered too big for the small streets of an ancient city.  Boarding is back to front door only and fare evasion has fallen back to around 7%.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
From what I have seen some Myki hardware is exposed to a certain degree of weather though is placed under a basic shelter at the least.  Everything I have noted is at the entrance to the "paid area".
Gwiwer
I accept that there has to be some exposure to the elements; you can't expect them to be completely under cover in every location. However as I observed I just think that locating them completely out in the open as most of them are at Hawthorn station (and as xxxxlbear observed at Malmsbury station) is a bad idea; they just don't last when they're right out in the weather.  They always seem to get condensation under the screens or sun-damage.

Those artics swallowed up massive queues in seconds but have left London for other pastures. They were considered too big for the small streets of an ancient city.
Gwiwer
It's been a couple of years since I've been to the UK and wasn't aware that they got rid of those 'bendy' buses.  And yeah, I'd have to agree with you about that, they were way too big for those goat tracks they consider main roads over there; the streets are even worse than those in Sydney.
  g00r Locomotive Fireman

Reading through everyone's comments, they are all valid, but as I make my way to San Fran. airport, I'd like to offer a comparison of being a 'tourist' here and if I travelled to Victoria.

Number of ticketing systems encountered in SF and LA: 7
Current bus I thought the fare was $2 like when I left the airport, but this time it was $4.  Already used 3 x $1 notes and only had a $5
I now have 'change cards' to the value of $4 which I'll lose out on.  
Bought a mag. Stripe card to use the trains.  Can't use it on buses, only card that is universial is a smart card.  Remaining value on that card lost

LA is $2 cash for most buses, for single trip. If you decide to take another, pay again.
They do have a TAP card which is Myki's distant cousin and it works a lot faster than Myki (touch on only)
Skybus equivalent to LAX is a separate ticket again, credit cards only, no cash.

Myki has its faults, but if I had the choice of buying a Myki here, absolutely I would. $6 one time fee, any bus/train/Tram/trolley bus in the state, I could get on, and let the system work it out for me.  Rules about free travel for X hours if you travel by Y and Z wouldn't concern me, they would just be bonuses.

And as for the argument about paying an upfront fee when you only use public transport once a year, maybe it's time those people change their polluting habits (comment withdrawn for avid cyclists/pedestrians/agoraphobics)
  kenify Station Master

My niece in Kew has a school yearly Myki, we had to put her on the bus to return to Kew from Cowes, (Phillip Island) she only had a $50 for her fare as I was not aware that Myki could be used, driver asked her if she had a Myki, which she did, he got her to swipe on as per normal, swiped off at SCS, all good.  My only question is, how much did she pay, I think it was free as she has a yearly school Myki.  Any thoughts?
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
It should be possible to determine how much has been paid (or should have been paid) from the website. I don't expect a printed brochure to contain each and every fare though it can offer at least some indication of costs.

Cowes - Kew is a V/Line journey and previously would have come under the provisions of extending free travel to users arriving at a Zone 1 station with a V/Line ticket. That covers onward travel to Kew where ever one alights from the V/Line coach.

With Myki you pay only for those zones travelled through bur the Mkyi and V/Line websites are not specific enough to identify which zone covers Kew. OK it's Zone 1 to those who know but for those who don't how to find out?

[color=#000000][size=3][font=Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][quote]And as for the argument about paying an upfront fee when you only use public transport once a year, maybe it's time those people change their polluting habits (comment withdrawn for avid cyclists/pedestrians/agoraphobics) [/quote][/font][/size][/color]

[color=#000000][size=3][font=Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In my particular case I'll review my travel arrangements when public transport offers a realistic option. Home to work is 35 minutes by car. By the best public transport option it requires two buses, a train and several modest walks taking typically 2½ hours each way. Despite the higher cost of motoring (in every sense of the words) I don't wish to spend 5 hours or more of each day commuting and facing the unreliability of our networks. And this is from a die-hard P-T user who simply cannot find a reasonable way to make a perfectly legitimate cross-suburban trip.[/font][/size][/color]
  Gauntlet Chief Commissioner

Location:
My niece in Kew has a school yearly Myki... how much did she pay?
kenify
The zone information isn't in the current Fares and Ticketing Manual so I checked the 2011 version, Cowes is in zone 8, Kew is zone 1.
According to my calculations the off peak concession fare for zones 1 to 8 is $6.23, so I'd say your niece paid $4.48 because I'm assuming she has a zone 1 pass.
I though I was well informed about myki, but didn't know that it was valid on V/line road coaches.

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