Maryborough numbers

 
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
For the fifteenth time, the service is transport, not rail.

You want something that isn't required, pay for it.

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  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
Community services like rail passenger transport should not need a business case.

Bus takes longer as advised above.
freightgate

Absolute garbage. Governments (and taxpayers) want good value for their money. Public transport services can be evaluated on the metrics of cost, speed, patronage and accessibility (as in how many people a service can reach). Lets compare rail and coaches:

  • Passenger rail has higher fixed costs/overheads due to things like permanent way maintenance, signalling, depots and railway stations.

  • Speed depends a lot on the railway's route and condition - in the case of Maryborough-Castlemaine the Midland Highway is both a shorter distance and has a higher speed limit than the railway line. On the other hand, the RFR lines are capable of being faster than driving but this has cost a lot of money to get them to that state.

  • Rail drives patronage up, but so does upgrading existing coach services. In many cases passenger rail is so costly that services must be infrequent as a consequence (see: anywhere on the VLine rail network outside of the RFR lines), so both coaches and passenger rail must run on the same route to maintain the service level. Coaches are far easier to upgrade service levels for - due to the scale of the long-distance coach industry, adding extra services is essentially an additional operational cost. Rail service upgrades will generally require more trains to be built.

  • Accessibility of rail services is poor. You can build a coach stop with a shelter for less than $2000 (very rough estimate). Railway stations start at $1 Million and go up from there, so you will by definition have fewer of them along a route. Coaches can modify their routes to maximise their passenger catchment, so they don't need town bus services or big new car parks to feed patrons to them.

  JimYarin Chief Commissioner

Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Absolute garbage. Governments (and taxpayers) want good value for their money.
LancedDendrite


this is probably the reason why the community in melbourne does not want the eas west road tunnel.  it is not good value for money and taxpayers do not want it.

community services should not be "taxed" and they should not be provided on the basis of a business case.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
this is probably the reason why the community in melbourne does not want the eas west road tunnel. it is not good value for money and taxpayers do not want it.

community services should not be "taxed" and they should not be provided on the basis of a business case.
JimYarin

So you oppose the East-West Link on the basis of it having a poor business case... but support anything to do with railways regardless of whether a proposal is a total vote-buying money pit or has any merit?

Sir Tommy Bent would be proud. (Not the ex-Railpager, the 22nd Premier of Victoria)
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Or maybe he is wondering why large amounts of money are going to spent on a catchment area of about 150,000 tops, when vast areas of Melbourne with some 1 million people cant get even access to decent bus services.


Michael
mejhammers1


That would be the problem of the population you speak of who unthinkingly and without any pre-planning move to a location where there is no planned PT. Then after they arrive....oh...where is the nearest PT Question


Wood ducks...Rolling Eyes
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
community services should not be "taxed" and they should not be provided on the basis of a business case.
"Jim Yarin

So why should those with public transport options (ie. not just a service, but a service that meets their time and destination needs) receive enormous subsidies whilst those outside the network get nothing.


There's no argumentative basis for it.


Why should a person from Heathcote (say coming down to Melbourne for medical treatment) have to pay their way (by driving) whilst someone from Bendigo or Seymour gets a heavily subsidised transport option?


This is the crux of it - below cost fares provide enormous advantage to those who have access to useful services (right time, origin/destination) who are grossly subsidised at the expense of those who don't.


But that's not enough... you want us to provide an even more expensive service than is required, in the form of rail where a coach fits.  Where on Earth is the logic?


So you oppose the East-West Link on the basis of it having a poor business case... but support anything to do with railways regardless of whether a proposal is a total vote-buying money pit or has any merit?
LancedDedrite

This.  Anytime the word rail is mentioned rationality is eaten away by a sea of foam.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Community services like rail passenger transport should not need a business case.

Bus takes longer as advised above.
freightgate

Everything the govt spends money on must be validated and hence a business case. This doesn't mean it will run at a profit but the subsidy required is value for money. ie running a train for 10 people is not good use of tax payers money, but 100 is more likely to be.

For me, as long as now the Mary service has roughly a coach load at the terminus and has some form of growth this is ok as the train will collect more along the way. If its leaving Melbourne with barely a coach load then maybe it should be a couch.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

That would be the problem of the population you speak of who unthinkingly and without any pre-planning move to a location where there is no planned PT. Then after they arrive....oh...where is the nearest PT Question


Wood ducks...Rolling Eyes
The Vinelander

No Vinelander, whatever you Country Folks think, it isnt as simple as that. Unfortunately in Melbourne the state Government knocks down commission houses in accessible suburbs, they do not replace them in the same place, then relocate them to outer suburbs. There is a lot of people migrating from other parts of the country and they want to live in Melbourne, Sydney, Perth or Brisbane, they do not want to live in Mildura or Maryborough. Unfortunately people cannot live in established suburbs because people do not move from well connected desirable suburbs and thanks to self interested people like save our suburbs groups, no one can buy land knock down single houses to provide more housing, so they have to move where the housing is affordable which means outer suburbs that are not close to PT.

So what you are saying Vinelander is that some 1 million + people should not get decent bus services which are relatively cheap and quick to set up, stiff cheddar you say, but the taxpayer should provide Train services which are very expensive for say 90,000 tops in the Mallee and 150,00 tops in the Wimmera, because they do not want to hop on a bus.

Michael
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line

So what you are saying Vinelander is that some 1 million + people should not get decent bus services which are relatively cheap and quick to set up, stiff cheddar you say, but the taxpayer should provide Train services which are very expensive for say 90,000 tops in the Mallee and 150,00 tops in the Wimmera, because they do not want to hop on a bus.

Michael
mejhammers1



Agreed....bus services are relatively cheap to establish and railway lines less so.

However much of what you write is a gross over-generalisation. EG, if I were to move to a new outlying suburb, it would be to Donnybrook, Kilmore, Little River, Wallan, Bacchus Marsh, Rockbank, Pakenham, Nar-Nar-Goon, Drouin, Diggers Rest, Clarkefield, Riddells Creek...all outer suburbs, not as far as Ballan where I've lived and commuted to Melbourne from for over 25 years and all well served by excellent PT.

Thinking people vote with their feet by living in well served PT suburbs.

If people choose to live in a PT desert, they have no-one to blame but themselves OR they are quite content to use private transport.

Mike.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Agreed....bus services are relatively cheap to establish and railway lines less so.

However much of what you write is a gross over-generalisation. EG, if I were to move to a new outlying suburb, it would be to Donnybrook, Kilmore, Little River, Wallan, Bacchus Marsh, Rockbank, Pakenham, Nar-Nar-Goon, Drouin, Diggers Rest, Clarkefield, Riddells Creek...all outer suburbs, not as far as Ballan where I've lived for over 25 years and all well served by excellent PT.

Thinking people vote with their feet by living in well served PT suburbs.

If people choose to live in a PT desert, they have no-one to blame but themselves OR they are quite content to use private transport.

Mike.
The Vinelander

Sorry Vinelander no it isn't do you reckon that those places you have mentioned can absorb the type of population increases that Melbourne is experiencing. No they cannot, and with the exception of Pakenham, if they tried to the locals would not be happy about it. Sorry Vinelander but serving 1 Million plus people with decent bus services is more important than serving 150,000 by train.

Michael
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Sorry Vinelander no it isn't do you reckon that those places you have mentioned can absorb the type of population increases that Melbourne is experiencing. No they cannot, and with the exception of Pakenham, if they tried to the locals would not be happy about it. Sorry Vinelander but serving 1 Million plus people with decent bus services is more important than serving 150,000 by train.

Michael  
mejhammers1


No need to apologise and of course you are entitled to your opinion...
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

No need to apologise and of course you are entitled to your opinion...
The Vinelander

Thanks Vinelander

And you are entitled to your opinion also, after all it is a free country.

Michael
  wxtre Chief Train Controller

In the UK and Europe rail is utilized very well. You can see when used properly it is the most efficient form of transport. The rail network is comprehensive almost all towns of importance and all cities, are served by frequent daily passenger service. I cannot see why in Victoria we cannot have a similar European style train service between our regional cities.
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
Unfortunately in Melbourne the Government knocks down commission houses in accessible suburbs, they do not replace them in the same place, then relocate them to outer suburbs.
mejhammers1

mejhammers, do you really support building more Housing Commission accommodation in "accessible" (i.e. expensive and trendy) suburbs?

For the same price as a flat or house in an expensive suburb like Fitzroy or South Yarra, we can have 2 or 3 times as many in "affordable" suburbs a little further from the city. In addition, if our goal is to actually help Commission tenants to find jobs , then they are much more likely to find work in the middle and outer suburbs, than in the inner city where almost every job is skilled and requires either a trade ticket or university degree. Even the few inner city jobs that don't require formal qualifications, like say waiters in trendy cafes, do require a certain panache in clothing, presentation and verbal style that 99% of Housing Commission tenants just don't have.

The best way to break the ghettoised poverty of inner city Housing Commission residents is to move to less hipster suburbs where they stand a decent chance of getting a paid job. As a bonus, these suburbs are more reasonably priced, so for the same price to the government, we could shorten the public housing waiting lists by building much more accommodation for them. Smile
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Population, and population density is the answer to your "why not"
  wxtre Chief Train Controller

Population, and population density is the answer to your "why not"
duttonbay

It is true our population is lower. But our regional cities such as Ballarat, Bendigo, Geelong etc are similar to regional cities in the UK. The train services between regional cities in Europe are efficient, they utilize 4 tracks to add express trains between major population centers. The RRL link has attempted somewhat to implement this type of system but we sadly are lagging behind.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

mejhammers, do you really support building more Housing Commission accommodation in "accessible" (i.e. expensive and trendy) suburbs?

For the same price as a flat or house in an expensive suburb like Fitzroy or South Yarra, we can have 2 or 3 times as many in "affordable" suburbs a little further from the city. In addition, if our goal is to actually help Commission tenants to find jobs , then they are much more likely to find work in the middle and outer suburbs, than in the inner city where almost every job is skilled and requires either a trade ticket or university degree. Even the few inner city jobs that don't require formal qualifications, like say waiters in trendy cafes, do require a certain panache in clothing, presentation and verbal style that 99% of Housing Commission tenants just don't have.

The best way to break the ghettoised poverty of inner commission residents is to move to less hipster suburbs where they stand a decent chance of getting a paid job. As a bonus, these suburbs are more reasonably priced, so for the same price to the government, we could shorten the public housing waiting lists by building more accommodation for them. Smile
Bogong

No I never said that at all Bogong. I said that where the Housing Commission existed i.e. Flemington, North Carlton etc they should be replaced by building housing commission, not sold to a freakin developer. It works in Perth where Allanah McTiernan who is 1000 times a planning Minister Matthew Guy will ever be, has created mixed social class neighbourhoods in Subiaco and adjacent suburbs.

More likely to find work, yeah tell that to the people who live in the Outer West. There arent that many jobs in Outer West of Melbourne, it isnt like the Western Sydney, most people who live in the West travel to the CBD or other parts of Melbourne for jobs. There is already ghettoisation in Melbourne, the rich live in the Inner Suburbs and the less wealthy are pushed out to the outer suburbs.

Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

It is true our population is lower. But our regional cities such as Ballarat, Bendigo, Geelong etc are similar to regional cities in the UK. The train services between regional cities in Europe are efficient, they utilize 4 tracks to add express trains between major population centers. The RRL link has attempted somewhat to implement this type of system but we sadly are lagging behind.
wxtre

Correction, they are similar to small regional cities or towns. Ballarat and Bendigo are similar to Cambridge and Oxford. Regional Cities in the UK Birmingham 1.2 Million, Manchester 750,000, Liverpool 650,000, Bristol 450,000 etc. Not all Main Lines have 4 Tracks their whole length, for example the Lea Valley Lines form Liverpool Street to Cambridge and Kings Lynn only have 4 tracks to Hackney Downs, only 5 km from the CBD. The rest of the 120km or so is dual track.

Remember also the sheer number of passenger journeys that are undertaken in the UK 2012-13 figures in millions South West Trains 211, Southeastern 169, Southern 172, Chiltern 18. Compare that with V/Line Passenger 14


Michael
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Clarkefield, suburb?  Now I know how far off the planet you are.

I cannot see why in Victoria we cannot have a similar European style train service between our regional cities.
wxtre

Then there is no hope for you.


It is true our population is lower. But our regional cities such as Ballarat, Bendigo, Geelong etc are similar to regional cities in the UK.
wxtre

Just stop typing.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Clarkefield, suburb? Now I know how far off the planet you are.
ZH836301


The next locality & station past your beloved Sunbury. If its not a suburb now, no doubt it will be with the addition of a million new Melburnians.

Get in quick...Lots of available land close to excellent PT. Who says everyone has to live cheek by jowl anyway Question
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Ah no.  It is, and will always be, just a pub.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
The next locality & station past your beloved Sunbury. If its not a suburb now, no doubt it will be with the addition of a million new Melburnians.

Get in quick...Lots of available land close to excellent PT. Who says everyone has to live cheek by jowl anyway Question
The Vinelander

I Have no doubt it will remain as it is, at least until the land surrounding it is sold and subdivided...
  wxtre Chief Train Controller

Clarkefield, suburb? Now I know how far off the planet you are.


Then there is no hope for you.



Just stop typing.
ZH836301

Why are you making my quotes (what I typed) a larger font?
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
I don't think it really matters, but Clarkefield is the railway station for both Romsey and Lancefield. True, at the moment it only has a pub, shop and a (growing) school, but in a decade or two it will probably become a major suburb. So we should bear that in mind when when considering it's future.
  Bethungra Train Controller

Take a read of this news item http://www.bendigoadvertiser.com.au/story/2657243/maryborough-waits-to-be-discovered/?cs=3355

Maryborough is expecting a mini property boom.  Additional rail passenger services could assist greatly.

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