Boat People - where to now!

 
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
Manus Island atm is a disgrace. It doesn't matter if one leans left, right, communist, fascist, lunatic Luddite greenie, whatever.... $$$billions are being thrown at a facility that is not protecting anyone.

Now I'm all for having reasonable deterrents in place to prevent dangerous dodgy boat travel from Indonesia etc. I'm also pro-genuine asylum seeker - there are many who really are fleeing horrendous persecution in their home countries. Let's treat them as humans and not pawns/cannon-fodder.

Gee it's a complicated issue and I'm still trying to get my head around it....
Carnot


It is complicated.
We need to process asylum seekers promptly not to prejudge and summarily punish them. It's just the right thing for a civilised society to do.

As for this forum, how much HATE do some people feel the need to dump on them.
I've been accused of many things here. My mantra is never to let what my parents went through happen again. Russians and Germans (and others), the common denominator was intolerance. Once you turn a person into a thing you can justifying anything. Then they plead ignorance Evil or Very Mad

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  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

"Godwin" is being used to censure anyone for drawing parallels to ONE popularist political movement at it's height during the 1930's. Fascism existed in many western European countries. It wasn't an aberration and it was extremely popular with the middle class. It may have become the dominant political movement from the 1940's if Hitler didn't pick a war with England.

The accusers typically troll out leftist-Stalinist comparisons with impunity, along with put-downs and abuse that seems to be part of the package.

You cry "Godwin" I respond "Hypocrite".
Groundrelay

No, Godwins law is claimed when people try to critcise someone with an alternate point of view and label them or compare them to the Nazis.  

Something you did.

Craig W
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
Something your parents obviously failed to grasp Razz
bingley hall


Incapable of debating a point of view. He now has a go at my parentage.
So much for mutual respect from these ###Ts Mad
  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

Incapable of debating a point of view. He now has a go at my parentage.
So much for mutual respect from these ###Ts Mad
Groundrelay


Offer you mutual respect?

You insinuate that anybody who has an alternative point of view is a Nazi and you expect you should be treated with respect.

You really are pretentious aren't you?

Up until the election there had been some 50, 000 people who had arrived via the boat channel and about another 1000 that drowned.

How many people a year are enough for us to take ground relay.

No pandering around - give a number.

Craigw
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
No, Godwins law is claimed when people try to critcise someone with an alternate point of view and label them or compare them to the Nazis.

Something you did.

Craig W
CraigW

Selective Political Correctness.
I said Fascism. A populist political movement that was legal in most western countries in the 1930's. Most of the people that supported them weren't hardcore "Nazis" just sheep looking for someone to protect them.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
...
...How many people a year are enough for us to take ground relay.No pandering around - give a number.

Craigw
CraigW


Finally moving on...
People seeking asylum, regardless of how they try and get here are processed as part of the current refugee intake. IMHO 20000 would seem reasonable for a country of this population. https://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/60refugee.htm
Unless there are extraordinary circumstances no case is entitled to preference. At the same time we treat people the way we would wish to be.
Simple. No need for hatred, no fear of my taxes driving us broke or that they'll take over my nice middle class neighborhood. Smile
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Aaron; could we please stick to facts?  They are not "illegal arrivals", and you know they're not.  It is not a crime to seek asylum, and you are as guilty as Abbott and Co for using emotive terminology.
"Valvegear"
I am sticking to the facts, could you? Donald outlined it nicely, these people, are country shopping economic migrants (the great Bob Carr - who I regard as one of the smartest labor men ever, told us that), their attempts to come here without first gaining a visa constitutes an illegal entry. In short rounding up a bunch of money to escape poverty does not make you an asylum seeker.
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
Are we there yet Rolling Eyes
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
Now that really is nit-picking. No doubt, Donald, you can quote the relevant law. How long do they have after arrival to claim asylum? Can they claim asylum as soon as the enter Australian territorial waters, or before then, or not until they reach land?
Valvegear

Valvegear,

This is from the Asylum Seeker Resource Centre website.  (DIAC =Dept. Immigration & Citizenship)


  1. If you believe you are a refugee you need to tell the DIAC this when you are first interviewed. At your first interview the DIAC will be deciding whether or not you are an asylum seeker seeking protection in Australia. If you are you need to say something like ‘I am a refugee and want to apply for asylum’ to make sure you are given the right to do this.



That means when they reach an Australian territory.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Valvegear,
This is from the Asylum Seeker Resource Centre website.  (DIAC =Dept. Immigration & Citizenship)


  1. If you believe you are a refugee you need to tell the DIAC this when you are first interviewed. At your first interview the DIAC will be deciding whether or not you are an asylum seeker seeking protection in Australia. If you are you need to say something like ‘I am a refugee and want to apply for asylum’ to make sure you are given the right to do this.




That means when they reach an Australian territory.
Donald



Donald,  You have answered my question, but you have still not demonstrated that these people's arrivals are illegal.

Unless someone who actually knows the law can quote me the relevant section of the appropriate Act, I am not prepared to take the unsupported word of those who assert that these arrivals are illegal.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
Donald, You have answered my question, but you have still not demonstrated that these people's arrivals are illegal.

Unless someone who actually knows the law can quote me the relevant section of the appropriate Act, I am not prepared to take the unsupported word of those who assert that these arrivals are illegal.
Valvegear

If you don't have a valid visa to enter a country, you are an illegal until you claim asylum.   Therefore as you leave Indonesia in a fishing boat after just paying $20,000 or whatever, you are illegally entering Australian territories.

From Dept. of Immigration:

All travellers other than Australian and New Zealand citizens need to present the following documents to officers in immigration clearance:

  • a valid passport or other acceptable travel document


  • a valid visa or authority to enter Australia (including electronic visas)


  • a completed and signed Incoming Passenger Card, including health and character declaration.
    See: [color=#003366]Passenger cards[/color]



Anyone who arrives without a valid travel document, visa or authority to enter Australia, may be refused entry to Australia or delayed until their identity and claims to enter Australia have been confirmed.

ie: no documents = illegal entry.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
"until you claim asylum."  Calling asylum seekers illegal is a technicality, and is about as stupid as calling you a thief in a supermarket because you have a trolley full of goods you haven't paid for.  In both cases, there is obvious intent.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
"until you claim asylum." Calling asylum seekers illegal is a technicality, and is about as stupid as calling you a thief in a supermarket because you have a trolley full of goods you haven't paid for. In both cases, there is obvious intent.
Valvegear


You only need so much legal expertise to satisfy a Kangaroo Court. I read the transcript of Bob Carr's interview but what's the fu#king use with this lot.

OK everyone of them guilty of being illegal, criminals, country-shoppers... Satan worshipers or whatever else it takes. Then what ?
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Unless someone who actually knows the law can quote me the relevant section of the appropriate Act, I am not prepared to take the unsupported word of those who assert that these arrivals are illegal.
Valvegear

But would you read it?

Donald has the list of entry criteria about right, there's a few exceptions to visa application I have provided below. Looks like country shopping economic migrants still need a visa.

----------------------------------------------

Ex TIM:

Passengers who do not need to obtain a visa before travelling to Australia


All persons entering Australia must hold a visa except for:
1.
nationals of Australia
2.
members of the Armed Forces, provided they are travelling on duty, hold Military Identification or a valid passport, and also hold Movement Orders from one of the following countries: Antigua & Barbuda, Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Brunei, Darussalam, Canada, Fiji, Grenada, Jamaica, Malaysia, Mauritius, New Zealand, Solomon Islands, St. Kitts & Nevis, St. Lucia, St. Vincent & the Grenadines, Thailand, Tonga, Tuvalu, United Kingdom
3.
Armed Forces of Malaysia, Papua New Guinea, Singapore and USA:
a)
military personnel holding Movement Orders and either Military Identification or a valid passport
b)
civilian component of ‘a)’ above, provided they hold a valid passport and a Status Certificate stamped in their passport or on official letterhead
4.
accompanying or joining spouse or dependant relatives of ‘2’, ‘3a)’ or ‘3b)’ if they hold a valid passport and either Movement Orders or a Status Certificate
5.
permanent residents of Norfolk Island holding a passport endorsed with the authority to reside indefinitely in Norfolk Island. These passengers must apply for a ‘Permanent Residents of Norfolk Island Visa’ on arrival at the Australian border
6.

nationals of New Zealand who must apply for a ‘Special Category Visa’ (SCV) by presenting a valid New Zealand passport and a completed passenger card on arrival at the Australian border
7.
personnel employed by the United Nations Mission in Timor Leste, holding a valid passport or travel document and a UN identity card or a letter from the UN identifying them as personnel employed by UN operations in Timor Leste
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Look; let's keep it simple and basic.
As I said earlier, you are not doing anything illegal if you have a trolley load of groceries and haven't paid; you intend to at the check out.  The boat people haven't done anything illegal by arriving; they intend to claim asylum when they hit Australian soil. They are allowed to do this.
Along with many other posters here, I also believe that a hell of a lot of them are not genuine refugees, but it doesn't matter what you or I believe about them - they are entitled to due process in exactly the same way as our own home-grown scumbag rapists and murderers are.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
...
Along with many other posters here, I also believe that a hell of a lot of them are not genuine refugees, but it doesn't matter what you or I believe about them - they are entitled to due process in exactly the same way as our own home-grown scumbag rapists and murderers are.
Valvegear


It's that simple. No need to demonize them to appease the haters and insecure sheep.
It doesn't mean they should get preference over anyone else. If approved, I would be inclined to put them on the end of the list - a waiting period outside Australia.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
Look; let's keep it simple and basic.
As I said earlier, you are not doing anything illegal if you have a trolley load of groceries and haven't paid; you intend to at the check out. The boat people haven't done anything illegal by arriving; they intend to claim asylum when they hit Australian soil. They are allowed to do this.
Along with many other posters here, I also believe that a hell of a lot of them are not genuine refugees, but it doesn't matter what you or I believe about them - they are entitled to due process in exactly the same way as our own home-grown scumbag rapists and murderers are.
Valvegear

But they are not refugees!!   Refugees are in a camp just over the border being fed by the Red Cross and others.   I repeat, these are paying for the privilege of a ride in a unseaworthy boat to jump the queue.   They should be sent back to the refugee camps and we take the first off the list from the camp.   Now that might slow the boats!!
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
But they are not refugees!! ...
Donald


Not one, not a single person is a refugee, get it!!!!!
So much certainty.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
If the arrival proceeds the claim of asylum and the arrival is not featuring a visa the arrival IS illegal. Strolling around a supermarket with a basket full of groceries is nothing like a visa-less arrival. For starters, there is a general expectation that shoppers will browse and pay at the end, but there is an ABSOLUTE demand that people arrive in countries with complete, valid and non fraudulently gained paperwork in hand.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
Not one, not a single person is a refugee, get it!!!!!
So much certainty.
Groundrelay

So, what is your solution (or non-solution) to the situation?
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
I am on a strange computer which does not allow me to copy and paste, so I have to address people without quoting them verbatiom.

Donald obviously didn't carefully read what I said - namely that I believe that a hell of a lot are not genuine refugees. He is too busy leaping with righteous indignation before looking.

Aaron is determined to be ultra-pedantic because of his legalistic lust to brand all of these people as criminals, so I'll just have to sit back and watch him. To be branded as illegal due to a lapse of time between arriving and claiming asylum is so patently absurd, that I'll just sigh and let the hawks go for it.

I've said my bit; that'll do.
  Groundrelay Chief Commissioner

Location: Surrounded by Trolls!
So, what is your... non-solution... to the situation?
Donald

You just can't play nice can you.

So, what is your solution ...to the situation?
Donald


A few posts back.
Until a PERSON claiming asylum is interviewed and assessed I'm not confident enough to bag, tag and stack 'em.

What's yours?
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
You just can't play nice can you.



A few posts back.
Until a PERSON claiming asylum is interviewed and assessed I'm not confident enough to bag, tag and stack 'em.

What's yours?
Groundrelay

So you are still following KRudd & the beloved Julia in having open borders with the never-ending bucket of money then?  

My solution I gave several posts back - "I repeat, these are paying for the privilege of a ride in a unseaworthy boat to jump the queue.   They should be sent back to the refugee camps and we take the first off the list from the camp."
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I am on a strange computer which does not allow me to copy and paste, so I have to address people without quoting them verbatiom.

Donald obviously didn't carefully read what I said - namely that I believe that a hell of a lot are not genuine refugees. He is too busy leaping with righteous indignation before looking.

Aaron is determined to be ultra-pedantic because of his legalistic lust to brand all of these people as criminals, so I'll just have to sit back and watch him. To be branded as illegal due to a lapse of time between arriving and claiming asylum is so patently absurd, that I'll just sigh and let the hawks go for it.

I've said my bit; that'll do.
"Valvegear"
The law is pedantic, it needs to be, there is no grey here, it's black and white.

If you arrive without permission and paperwork you are plainly OUTSIDE the law. To claim asylum legally (which it is not illegal to do) you need to apply from outside of the country, or apply whilst LAWFULLY here. You cannot illegally land and claim to be a 'legally entitled regufee' these two actions are mutually exclusive.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Until a PERSON claiming asylum is interviewed and assessed I'm not confident enough to bag, tag and stack 'em.
Groundrelay

It is a fair assumption that anyone arriving on these boats has paid a lot of money to be there, and as pointed out earlier, genuine refugees don't have that kind of money and are already living in some sh1t-hole hoping to get out.

If these people have the money to travel to Indonesia, they have already escaped from said sh1t-hole, so why don't they claim asylum in Indonesia?

A pretty fair bet would be because they still have big money on them and want an upgrade to Australia.

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