Point 1 - asking the question is OK. Point 2 - I have seen footage of these boat people with burns allegedly suffered at the hands of RAN personnel. It is evidence - it may be credible; it may not, but the question should be asked. The allegations were dismissed out of hand and with great indignation by both Morrison and Abbott, which would be fine if our defence forces had a 100% squeaky clean record. Sex offences and bastardization in Defence establishments is not a squeaky clean record. Aaron - I'd love to see you look at a picture with an unbiased viewpoint.
Anyone accused of anything, guilty or not, is besmirched to some degree - try Lindy Chamberlain for example.

The police, customs and even the ADF routinely conduct investigations based on allegations without prejudice.
It would have been very easy for an Australian official to conduct a preliminary investigation as we have nothing to hide. Nope the government turned on the old patriotism/nationalist indignation to protect itself, sorry the Navy from questioning.

As history has shown, when it comes to allegations against sacrosanct 'institutions' the Libs silence has been deafening.

Valvegear, I am looking at it objectively and without bias, to cite to hand burns thing is a little odd, especially if you've seen the 'footage' what did tou notice about the footage? Even Bill Shorten very quickly condemned the allegations when he clearly saw the obvious which it seems you, and the other unobjective, missed.

Aaron,  I was not trying to say what was obvious, or what Bill Shorten saw, or whether the wind was in the south-south-west. My comments related to Senator Conroy's remarks, his accusations, and what is evidence, (good or bad ), and what answers he might get.

Yet again, you fall for the trap of saying what evidence you or somebody else saw and/or said.  I am sticking to the subject of Conroy and his right to question. I don't know what he has seen, and neither do you.

I had a chat to some Iranian friends on the weekend........................... These were educated people.

You will find most of the educated people from the ruling classes got out of Iran in 1979 after the Shah was disposed.
The ones who stayed on were either jailed or executed.
If you have met an Iranian who emigrated before or around 1979 and then meet a newly emigrated Iranian, you'll notice a big difference in attitudes towards the West, Islam etc.
The ruling classes before 1979 were generally more progressive in attitude.
The recent arrivals have been brought up in a Islamic state, they are the the children of their parents Islamic revolution,

Aaron,  I was not trying to say what was obvious, or what Bill Shorten saw, or whether the wind was in the south-south-west. My comments related to Senator Conroy's remarks, his accusations, and what is evidence, (good or bad ), and what answers he might get.

Yet again, you fall for the trap of saying what evidence you or somebody else saw and/or said.  I am sticking to the subject of Conroy and his right to question. I don't know what he has seen, and neither do you.

Here's a tip, Conroy (shadow minister for the insignificant) has not seen anything that Shorten has not seen. Shorten has probably not seen anything more significant than we have seen. If Shorten can come the conclusion that the accusations are purely nefarious on what he's seen I struggle to see how Conroy can come to his conclusions, Shorten must be reading it similarly to me, because he didn't back his deputy leader...

Aaron,  I was not trying to say what was obvious, or what Bill Shorten saw, or whether the wind was in the south-south-west. My comments related to Senator Conroy's remarks, his accusations, and what is evidence, (good or bad ), and what answers he might get.

Yet again, you fall for the trap of saying what evidence you or somebody else saw and/or said.  I am sticking to the subject of Conroy and his right to question. I don't know what he has seen, and neither do you.

Here's a tip, Conroy (shadow minister for the insignificant) has not seen anything that Shorten has not seen. Shorten has probably not seen anything more significant than we have seen. If Shorten can come the conclusion that the accusations are purely nefarious on what he's seen I struggle to see how Conroy can come to his conclusions, Shorten must be reading it similarly to me, because he didn't back his deputy leader...

Thanks for the tip, Aaron. I had no idea you were either in the ALP members' pockets, or that you are clairvoyant. I'll stick to the subject and you keep speculating. OK?
That's enough from me - it's all getting pointless.

Brian Schlegel
Commander, RAN
Commanding Officer
HMAS MELBOURNE

THE ABC's coverage of the border protection issue has become increasingly tendentious and divorced from reality. After more than a decade of campaigning on the issue, it now seems determined to deny reality in a desperate attempt to justify its long-standing unofficial line- that Australia ought to allow its borders and immigration system to be overridden by asylum seekers who arrive on people smugglers' boats. Day in and day out, the national broadcaster's news and current affairs programs run unsubstantiated allegations against our defence forces and government over the implementation of Operation Sovereign Borders or repeat unfair criticism from international agencies and domestic human rights activists.

Even worse, the ABC then damages our national reputation by rebroadcasting these reports into our region on the Australia Network. And all the while the ABC doesn't seem capable of mentioning the obvious fact, that the operation seems to be working, with no boats arriving into Australian custody for more than four weeks. The Australian wonders how long Tony Abbott can sit back and watch ABC managing director Mark Scott continue with his hands -off approach, allowing the Green /Left activism of his journalists to override the charter obligations of the national broadcaster.

His reporter in Jakarta - surely one of the most important postings for the organisation - is the inexperienced George Roberts, who constantly finds and files criticism of Australia and allegations against its service personnel, seemingly without countenancing the veracity of the claims or the domestic political considerations of Indonesian authorities. Yesterday, Roberts reported unproven claims that Australian navy personnel mistreated asylum -seekers by forcing them to grasp a hot engine in a boat turn-back operation, causing "severe" burns. An "exclusively" supplied video showed minor hand damage.


Immigration Minister Scott Morrison categorically denied the claims and later reports suggest the burns occurred before the vessel was intercepted, possibly as the vessel was sabotaged. Our navy personnel have, after all, saved the lives of hundreds of asylum- seekers. ABC bulletins also ran strongly with strident criticism from New York -based Human Rights Watch, labelling Australia's measures "abusive" and accusing the government of "demonising" asylum- seekers.


The national broadcaster continues to provide uncritical amplification of this predictable venting, setting itself as the moral conscience of a nation with a brutal government and insensitive populace. Again, throughout these self -loathing reports, the government's apparent success in breaking the people - smuggling trade seems lost. Mr Scott, who frequently takes to Twitter to praise his staff, doesn't seem to demand they resort to some straightforward reporting of the salient facts.


Perhaps the ABC might even consider the issue from the perspective of Australia's national interest. If it can concern itself daily with the sensitivities and objectives of the Indonesian government, then taxpayers are entitled to expect a national broadcaster can also comprehend and recognise our own nation's interests and objectives.The ABC is not alone in this juvenile pursuit. Fairfax newspapers and much of the Canberra press gallery follow suit. Antipathy towards strong border control has become a self -identifier for those who wish to be seen as worldly, compassionate and progressive. They have invested much of their own credibility in repeating Labor Party and Greens claims that it would not be possible to turn back people-smugglers' boats.


Now that the difficult and dangerous work of our Service personnel suggests the Coalition's policies can work, just as they did more than a decade ago, the media and political critics face the choice of either admitting their prognostications were wrong or working to undermine the policy and create a sense of disorder. Perhaps we shouldn't be surprised they prefer the latter. Perversely, the more they protest and decry the Abbott regime as brutal and unfair, the more it will help to dissuade potential customers. We can only hope so. Because if the current trends can be entrenched so that the trade stops and the people- smugglers are put out of business, lives will not be put at risk, thousands will be spared the trauma of detention, billions will be saved and Indonesian relations will be put back on to an even keel.


Oh, and Australia can continue to accept its generous quota of refugees based on need rather than price, through orderly processes.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

Here, here.

The ABC has obviously forgotten that their job is to give unbiased, not politically opposed, news. It is sad that our national broadcasting channel is now only used as left wing media outlet to push their views and political agenda’s. It is not acceptable as their actions have brought shame to Australia’s good reputation.

An example of this was their hosting of the 2013 New Years Eve firework display in Sydney. It is sad that an event that signifies Australia was used by the ABC to push their left wing political agendas and other unrelated garbage down viewers thoughts.

Their ‘reporting’ of asylum seeker affairs is a also a prime example of this. They lodge unbacked claims against the navy and its personal even though they have been successful in stopping people smugglers illegal activities. Of interest is how they never went on about when there was a flood of boats coming illegally into Australia which resulted in many deaths and drownings.


As a result of this, reforms are needed in order to stop the ABC’s political hunts and for them to start reporting real news again. I am in utter dismay that the ABC receive funding from Australia yet they decide to spend it on biased reports and pushing their left wing agendas.


Anyway, as they say just my 2 cents worth.


Dman66

Senior Navy officer loses command over incursions into Indonesian waters during Operation Sovereign Borders

"A senior Navy officer has been stripped of his command, another will be sanctioned and others counselled over their involvement in incursions into Indonesian waters last summer while enforcing the Government's asylum seeker boats policy...

"It is unfair in the extreme that Navy officers are being disciplined and counselled, while Tony Abbott and Scott Morrison refuse to take any responsibility for the Indonesian incursions," Senator Feeney said in a statement."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-04-17/navy-officer-demoted-over-incursions-during-asylum-seeker-op/5397586

Teflon pollies put the military into these situations. This government strategy is one of "plausible deniability"  Abbott's secrecy policy and attacks on media investigations has more to do with protecting them from scrutiny than any operational necessity.

You really can't resist sticking a political statement in every post, can you? It would have been a useful post otherwise, but your tiresome preaching just ruins it.

You really can't resist sticking a political statement in every post, can you? It would have been a useful post otherwise, but your tiresome preaching just ruins it.

So I'm cynical of pollies . Too bad if the current government is LNP.
I notice you routinely dump on Labor/Green pollies mostly using expletive deletives.

Sorry Blacksmith - like it or not, the subject is highly political. Stopping/turning back the boats was a massive plank in Abbott's election platform.

Sorry Blacksmith - like it or not, the subject is highly political. Stopping/turning back the boats was a massive plank in Abbott's election platform.

Whenever something reflects well on the government they can't get it out quick enough. If anyone questions them the wrong way, they get vilified. When the news ain't positive up goes that arrogant facade as they hide behind the military, the process or whatever. The whole operational secrecy charade is simply political bullsh#t. It's intended to give this lot time for political damage control when things go wrong.

You don't have to be too cynical to note that the report about the disciplining of naval officers came out on the afternoon before the Easter break. Now the latest leak from Manus Island and governments predictable response http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/reza-barati-death-papua-new-guinea-nationals-attacked-asylum-seekers-on-manus-island-20140421-zqxai.html. Expect that report will be released on Christmas Eve

I'm seriously getting annoyed at the blinkered xenophobic attitude of many Australians w.r.t this issue. I'm about as socially conservative as you can get on many issues, but reckon that you cannot turn a blind eye to the way we're treating asylum seekers.

Julian Burnside has a good write up and some proposals: http://thebigsmoke.com.au/2014/04/07/reality-boat-people-solution-asylum-seeker-problem/

Sorry people, but as I said earlier on this thread this is the one issue that Abbott has got exactly right.

It might disappoint a great many that we're apparently so hard but there's something about the sight of people arriving on boats to claim asylum that gets people's xenophobic juices flowing. Tony correctly read the mood of the electorate that they wanted this to stop (or at least be out of sight) and they seem to have delivered - at least on this issue.

If the Labor Party find themselves in office in the future expect Operation Sovereign Borders to continue - I think it's pretty much a bipartisan policy now.

Like many have said over the years if they can pay someone to bring them to Australia or a territory etc then why do they not use that money to come here legally in the first place. The people smugglers are not doing  it because they love them but because they can charge big fee's and get it. People like this to me are not genuine refugees though. A refugee in the full sense of the word is one who has left a country with nothing only the clothes on their backs. Next they will want to bring the Mercedes or something with them.

And just were do all these refugee's get the money in the first place though, most probably through criminal acts in the first place. So turning them back to me is no big deal if the above is true. Come here legally or don't come here at all. The USA protects their borders and no one even flinches, how many get turned back or caught every day in places trying to get into the USA.

... gets people's xenophobic juices flowing. ...

Just look at what's going on in the Ukraine
Stopping boat arrivals is fair and prudent in respect of our refugee intake system and the danger to human lives.
However it seems the end justifies the means.

Messrs Abbott and Morrison have seized any opportunity to crow about their successes – fine. However they go missing in action or mute when it comes to the stuff-ups and a suspicious death in custody. Maybe they won't be held accountable however given Abbott is keen on Royal Commissions into the former government perhaps what goes around will come around... one day.

...Messrs Abbott and Morrison have seized any opportunity to crow about their successes – fine. However they go missing in action or mute when it comes to the stuff-ups...

And the difference to any political party is ????

They are all the same on this, as well as, "it was their fault when they were last in power."  Even if it was 10 years previous.

If the Labor Party find themselves in office in the future expect Operation Sovereign Borders to continue - I think it's pretty much a bipartisan policy now.

Labor has never, and never will, stop a boat. So many days since a boat arrival I can seldom be bothered counting them anymore, but I went to the effort anyway. 127* days of nil arrivals (to EOD 24/4), not even a boat to turn back since 25/2, but that must all be a myth, Mr Rudd, Ms Gillard, Ms Wong, Mr Burke, the Short etc all said that this could NEVER happen. Must be some sort of push factor eliminating event occuring in the middle east, because we know there were no pull factors...

Now if we could just implement TPVs again, issue some 'retrospectively' to those detained here under the ALP scheme, we might be able to 'export' some 'refugees' home and actually go close to having a negative number of arrivals under the LNP's watch.

*I believe, but cannot confirm, that all of those arriving on the last boat to land, 127 days ago, have been repatriated. If that is truly the case then the last 'asylum seekers' to land in Australian territory occured 132 days ago.

...I can seldom be bothered counting them anymore, but I went to the effort anyway. ...

Couldn't help yourself

...I believe, but cannot confirm, that all of those arriving on the last boat to land, 127 days ago, have been repatriated. If that is truly the case then the last 'asylum seekers' to land in Australian territory occured 132 days ago.

But don't break out that Grange just yet
This 'war' isn't over. Australia will continue to be a magnet for people looking for a better or just safer life. When NATO pulls out from Afghanistan there will be plenty of people with the will and the money to come here. In that next 'battle' would you treat them like allies or enemies ?

This 'war' isn't over. Australia will continue to be a magnet for people looking for a better or just safer life. When NATO pulls out from Afghanistan there will be plenty of people with the will and the money to come here. In that next 'battle' would you treat them like allies or enemies ?

And that is just it, Groundrelay.   They are not real refugees, just country shoppers!!!  And the sooner your beloved Labor Party admit it and continue the Liberal policy the better for Australia and the real refugees sitting in refugee camps on the borders of countries involved in conflicts, so they can get a new start to life instead of the financial well off looking for a better life.

And that is just it, Groundrelay. They are not real refugees, just country shoppers!!! And the sooner your beloved Labor Party admit it and continue the Liberal policy the better for Australia and the real refugees sitting in refugee camps on the borders of countries involved in conflicts, so they can get a new start to life instead of the financial well off looking for a better life.

Here's the latest... Labor isn't in power any more!  It's your not-so-liberal lot including the bigoted ones that rule the roost.

I don’t believe anyone should get preference because they have the means (boat or plane) to get here. I have no doubt some proportion are economic refugees (including many from England and NZ ), but you’re 100% certain that every "boat-person" is a "country shopper". In fact even Abbott isn't 100% certain
As for being really concerned about those in camps perhaps upping the refugee intake by 10,000 p.a. would be small start. After all we are a wealthy G20 country. No

Here's the latest... Labor isn't in power any more! It's your not-so-liberal lot including the bigoted ones that rule the roost.

I don’t believe anyone should get preference because they have the means (boat or plane) to get here. I have no doubt some proportion are economic refugees (including many from England and NZ ), but you’re 100% certain that every "boat-person" is a "country shopper". In fact even Abbott isn't 100% certain
As for being really concerned about those in camps perhaps upping the refugee intake by 10,000 p.a. would be small start. After all we are a wealthy G20 country. No

I know the Labor lot are not in power at the moment - there are no boats arriving!

We won't have to up our quota this year as there haven't been any economic refugees arriving for the past 100 + days impinging on the genuine refugees chance at a life anywhere but the camp they are now residing.

Is it just me or do a lot of these leftie groups think poor people should be allowed into rich countries just because they are poor and desire a better life?

What gets me is that they are safe in Indonesia these so called refugee's, but they don't want to stay there do they because they will get nothing at all to help them, but Australia is just over the ditch and low and behold they will throw money at us, or so so they have been told. Well that is probably what it looked like before. So they simply paid their way and took their chances and when they could not get their own way once they got to Australian soil they would go on hunger strikes or what ever else. So really turning them back is not such the big disaster that the media beats it up to be. Somebody had to say at some stage enough is enough, and actually do something. Not a Liberal supporter here nor a Labour one either. But glad something was actually done to stop or try to stop these boat people coming to Australia and putting their lives at risk in unseaworthy boats etc in the first place.