Since this is dominating other threads, and some strong views have been expressed

"No matter which way you look at it, the refugee situation worldwide is ever growing. This is an indictment on both the political frailty that grips so many nations and the basic desire of many to seek a more prosperous life.

The resulting refugee situation, regardless of where and how they arrive, is not going to go away. Particularly as "pull" factors are proving almost irresistible to those able to scrape the funds necessary to buy a berth on an illegal boat."

http://www.bigpondmoney.com.au/illegal-boat-arrivals-what-it-really-costs

Let the 'debate' begin...

The current situation has turned into a complete debacle, thanks to this current Government.  It will end up costing all of us in the way of increased taxes, reduction of services not to mention the social implications of a developing underclass in our towns and cities-only god knows where that itself will lead to?

The current situation has turned into a complete debacle, thanks to this current Government.  It will end up costing all of us in the way of increased taxes, reduction of services not to mention the social implications of a developing underclass in our towns and cities-only god knows where that itself will lead to?

Yes the governments policy change was a contributor.

Of course your shock-jocks won't mention let alone bang on about all the other significant factors since 2007 e.g. US getting out of Iraq, War in Afghanistan escalating, truce in Sri Lanka (i.e. opportunity to get out), even social media. They won't religiously remind their audience that this has globally increased due to political instability and people wanting out.

The same shock-jocks will continue to push those buttons with opinion macerating as 100% fact and cherry picking information because it suits their agenda. Fortunately there remains political correspondents and media presenters whose credibility is achieved through balance and objectivity.

And yes I want to stop boats, my own prejudice is that there are economic refugees and it does cost a lot (but relative to the $$$ scheme of things REALLY ).

I've never fought to survive, been shot at or bombed, had no food and shelter, been politically or socially persecuted (well not much) or lost my economic/social standing - I don't know how strong the motivation is. That's why I'm not bought by the 'We will turn the boats around'.

So far they have qualified this several times as the reality of that digestible one liner is questioned. No danger to Defence personal, won't breech Indonesia's Waters, will need our neighbour's co-operation, etc. Will the shock-jocks mention let alone bang on with that

Both my wife and I are first gen Aussies from one parent each born OS. One Europe, one Asia.

Having lived and worked in some of the places these refugees are coming from I fully understand why they want out and with modern GPS, internet and other its a lot easier than it once was.

BUT, we cannot accept them all and if we try our country won't take long before it matches theirs. Slow steady controlled immigration is what made countries like Australia and Canada great and multi-cultural. Both my father and Mother -in-law did not move into their cultural communities in Australia (if they even existed), but moved directly into mainstream Suburbia, hence enabling smooth intergration and aquistion of English and Australian culture. If we look back to Vietnam refugee's, we now have large area of Sydney with almost mono-culture 30-40 years on. Other areas have same and hence retained alot of the bad.

On the Snowy Mountains scheme, the CEO had enough of the cultural battles at work and mixed up the families, it worked.

Finacially we also cannot accept 10's thousands of refugee's and if we try, it will be 100's thousands as open the door and inch and they will charge through. Working in middle east we get, "how can we get to Aus" all the time. UK, the Paki's and indian's know the tricks to get in, 6mth job there through friends, get your wife pregant, kid is born there, done! Bring out the family.

Unfortunately I think we need to stand our ground and send back those above an acceptable quota. Placing them in effectively jail and sending them back sends the message we are not an easy target and we should avoid being swamped moe than we are.

For those who think Australia is harsh with the detention centres. Singapore its a massive fine, jail and for males betweenn 18 and 50, X many strokes of the rattan on your smeg to remind you for a very long time of what you did.

Both my wife and I are first gen Aussies from one parent each born OS. One Europe, one Asia.

Having lived and worked in some of the places these refugees are coming from I fully understand why they want out and with modern GPS, internet and other its a lot easier than it once was.

BUT, we cannot accept them all and if we try our country won't take long before it matches theirs. Slow steady controlled immigration is what made countries like Australia and Canada great and multi-cultural. Both my father and Mother -in-law did not move into their cultural communities in Australia (if they even existed), but moved directly into mainstream Suburbia, hence enabling smooth intergration and aquistion of English and Australian culture. If we look back to Vietnam refugee's, we now have large area of Sydney with almost mono-culture 30-40 years on. Other areas have same and hence retained alot of the bad.

On the Snowy Mountains scheme, the CEO had enough of the cultural battles at work and mixed up the families, it worked.

Finacially we also cannot accept 10's thousands of refugee's and if we try, it will be 100's thousands as open the door and inch and they will charge through. Working in middle east we get, "how can we get to Aus" all the time. UK, the Paki's and indian's know the tricks to get in, 6mth job there through friends, get your wife pregant, kid is born there, done! Bring out the family.

Unfortunately I think we need to stand our ground and send back those above an acceptable quota. Placing them in effectively jail and sending them back sends the message we are not an easy target and we should avoid being swamped moe than we are.

For those who think Australia is harsh with the detention centres. Singapore its a massive fine, jail and for males betweenn 18 and 50, X many strokes of the rattan on your smeg to remind you for a very long time of what you did.

Finally a voice of common sense and reason.  But I guess the people that want to turn us into a United Nations hippy commune, where crime and terrorism take over will never be happy.  The bad people doing evil aren't so much as dangerous, it's the good people doing evil that are the one's to watch.

These boat people are crossing multiple borders, using multiple means of transport and then deliberately destroying their documentation to circumvent the laws and processes in place to suit themselves, and paying large sums of money, all to the detriment of legitimate refugees and the Australian taxpayers.........I ask the communists and socialists in the midst how can this be fair?

Thank you to the Australian Labor Party and Julia Gillard/Kevin Rudd.

Thoughts on this?

We have plenty of regional communties where the population has contracted and some have taken positive steps such as Jandowee selling land at $1/block with conditions to people willing to build a house and move there.

Potentially these same communities could sponsor a refugee family (if they vote to do so). they would provide a block of land and house either abandoned or a relocated cheapy, but suitable. Grant provided by govt to furnish and must be accounted. Significant loss or damage can see this Australian stay cancelled.

The family would send their kids to local school (so town must have primary and high school or bus to same) and the community must find suitable employment, perhaps with govt rebate deceasing over 2 years. Welfare officer visits on regular basis to ensure they are settling in ok and if required pull them out if its not working.

Conditions,
- At least one member of family must be fluent in in written and oral english with others some grasp
- Providen to be genuine refugee's seeking refuge from political and/or relgious grounds. I'll also leave the door open for genuine economic, but not those likely to pay for a flight to Jakata and stay in high level accomdation.
- After testing, appears genuine to want to intergrate into Australian community. Not move here and want other women in the street to cover up, or ready to kill their daughter because she talks to boys etc.
- Must maintain reasonable work ethic, social behaviour and school behaviour and performance.
- Option not available in a major centre, only regional.
- Family cannot move from location for 2years, unless for employment purpose after 12mths. Not restrictions on holidays or travel
- A recorded criminal offense cancels the program and right to stay in Australia
- Children who are problematic/have criminal convictions will not be able stay past the end of high school or if they leave/abandon school. they are not entitled to apply for PR or citizenship until 18.

At the end of 2 years, the local community have a vote on whether they can stay, or must leave, this can impact on the families ability to get Permanent Resisdence and they risk being deported if govt review finds them unworthy based on community feedback. The community can approve them to stay, but they can choose to move on once issued with PR.

We have plenty of regional communties where the population has contracted and some have taken positive steps such as Jandowee selling land at $1/block with conditions to people willing to build a house and move there.

That would be Jandowae, and what a huge success that was (or not)!

Both my wife and I are first gen Aussies from one parent each born OS. One Europe, one Asia.

Having lived and worked in some of the places these refugees are coming from I fully understand why they want out and with modern GPS, internet and other its a lot easier than it once was.

BUT, we cannot accept them all and if we try our country won't take long before it matches theirs. Slow steady controlled immigration is what made countries like Australia and Canada great and multi-cultural. Both my father and Mother -in-law did not move into their cultural communities in Australia (if they even existed), but moved directly into mainstream Suburbia, ...

Agree with you... up to a point.

When people turn up (plane, boat or UFO) by all means send them back (every one of them). No problem if that's our policy. How that sits with peoples conscience and if Christian how they reconcile that with their god?

As for speaking English (Australian !) as your first barrier to acceptance as an immigrant. What are the assumptions behind that - they are all uneducated, won't assimilate and are incapable of learning English. You would have precluded most of non UK WW2 migration.

The Indonesian President says that they will not accept any boats that Australia sends back when TA gets the job in 3 months.    Why?   They are Indonesian boats with Indonesian captains leaving Indonesian waters and unable to account for the cargo on board.   They belong to Indonesia.

The Indonesian President says that they will not accept any boats that Australia sends back when TA gets the job in 3 months.    Why?   They are Indonesian boats with Indonesian captains leaving Indonesian waters and unable to account for the cargo on board.   They belong to Indonesia.

He can always try gun boat diplomacy.

In the next decades Indonesia will become economically stronger, militarily more powerful and even more over-populated... Australia may be forced to accept an Asian solution.

The Indonesian President says that they will not accept any boats that Australia sends back when TA gets the job in 3 months.    Why?   They are Indonesian boats with Indonesian captains leaving Indonesian waters and unable to account for the cargo on board.   They belong to Indonesia.

Exactly my sentiment, It is quite obvious Indonesia has a hidden agenda in not helping their very generous neighbour.

He can always try gun boat diplomacy.

In the next decades Indonesia will become economically stronger, militarily more powerful and even more over-populated... Australia may be forced to accept an Asian solution.

When your way of life is severely curtailed how will that sit with you?  Isn't that why we have a Government and a military?

Agree with you... up to a point.

When people turn up (plane, boat or UFO) by all means send them back (every one of them). No problem if that's our policy. How that sits with peoples conscience and if Christian how they reconcile that with their god?

As for speaking English (Australian !) as your first barrier to acceptance as an immigrant. What are the assumptions behind that - they are all uneducated, won't assimilate and are incapable of learning English. You would have precluded most of non UK WW2 migration.

I don't believe it is a matter to do with god or conscience, they are very long bows to draw and only serve to muddy the waters.  When a Government runs a country they can't base every decision they make on god and conscience because you would probably end up with a middle eastern situation.

Not speaking for RTT, I would say that he is alluding to the fact that people who do not have English as their first language and are not work ready will more than most likely have problems integrating with the rest of society, will probably form ghettos, be dependant on welfare and hence probably more likely to turn to crime to fund their lifestyle, given the contemporary job market in Australia.

Would you like that to happen in your street/suburb cootanee?

I don't believe it is a matter to do with god or conscience, they are very long bows to draw and only serve to muddy the waters.  When a Government runs a country they can't base every decision they make on god and conscience because you would probably end up with a middle eastern situation.

Not speaking for RTT, I would say that he is alluding to the fact that people who do not have English as their first language and are not work ready will more than most likely have problems integrating with the rest of society, will probably form ghettos, be dependant on welfare and hence probably more likely to turn to crime to fund their lifestyle, given the contemporary job market in Australia.

Would you like that to happen in your street/suburb cootanee?

Speaking as a wog from a NESB I know what it's like being the odd one out. I experienced what people said about us - just what you are saying now. We had dreams, I made my way from lower working class on a real struggle street to living in a nice mac-mansion in a liberal electorate.

And as I've said several times I have my prejudices against people different to me - richer, poorer, non-white, non-my Christian sect, people with accents, people in public housing. It's up to me to get over that - which is why I am a Christ believer.

Speaking as a wog from a NESB I know what it's like being the odd one out. I experienced what people said about us - just what you are saying now. We had dreams, I made my way from lower working class on a real struggle street to living in a nice mac-mansion in a liberal electorate.

And as I've said several times I have my prejudices against people different to me - richer, poorer, non-white, non-my Christian sect, people with accents, people in public housing. It's up to me to get over that - which is why I am a Christ believer.

But Australia had a vastly different economy to what we have today with the circumstances being vastly different.  It was largely a manufacturing economy with lots of unskilled labour available which didn't require people to be completely fluent in English and have a high skill set in order to gain employment.

The problem with the present situation is that the demand for unskilled labour has all but diminished, so what option do a lot of these people have when they arrive?  Welfare and charity which does not bode well for integrating these people into society.  This type of uncontrolled immigration will eventually lead to a social disaster on an enormous scale, just like what we can see is happening in the United Kingdom and the rest of Europe.

But Australia had a vastly different economy to what we have today with the circumstances being vastly different.  It was largely a manufacturing economy with lots of unskilled labour available which didn't require people to be completely fluent in English and have a high skill set in order to gain employment.

The problem with the present situation is that the demand for unskilled labour has all but diminished, so what option do a lot of these people have when they arrive?  Welfare and charity which does not bode well for integrating these people into society.  This type of uncontrolled immigration will eventually lead to a social disaster on an enormous scale, just like what we can see is happening in the United Kingdom and the rest of Europe.

You started well A+B=C...   then...

+D = Z      that same easy logic shock-jocks use  

C-J 1. We have uncontrolled migration.
No we have people arriving who don't go through our immigration process and if we catch them they are dealt with through our laws.

C-J 2. Everybody 'illegal' who arrives is unskilled, stays and goes on welfare.
Really

C-J 3. And they're all coming to get you.
Aren't they always

Yep... "Propaganda should be popular, not intellectually pleasing. It is not the task of propaganda to discover intellectual truths"

You started well A+B=C...   then...

+D = Z      that same easy logic shock-jocks use  

C-J 1. We have uncontrolled migration.
No we have people arriving who don't go through our immigration process and if we catch them they are dealt with through our laws.

C-J 2. Everybody 'illegal' who arrives is unskilled, stays and goes on welfare.
Really

C-J 3. And they're all coming to get you.
Aren't they always

Yep... "Propaganda should be popular, not intellectually pleasing. It is not the task of propaganda to discover intellectual truths"

Your second point C-J 1.  You are alluding that we do not have an immigration system that is out of control.  I debated this point with dungog diesel which he/she just turned into a game of semantics. I mean really.

To suggest that Australia does not have an immigration system that is currently out of control is just being disingenuous.  You can say to me that you have no proof and you must quote this and that, blah, blah, blah,  but that is not debating the point, it is just blocking for the sake of blocking and is just being plain silly.

It is quite obvious to everyone in Australia that the current immigration system/policies are in crisis, otherwise we wouldn't be having this debate would we?  If people choose to live their life as a mushroom well so be it, but choosing to be blissfully ignorant just to appease one's conscience will eventually come at a heavy price.

And why should people that enter the country illegally be given the same work rights as citizens?  That is advocating total de-regulation of the domestic labour market which is a race to the bottom for every citizen that has a job, and is hardly fair for people here seeking work.

Your final point C-J 3.  That is kind of offensive. I am enjoying debating you actually, but there is no need to allude to what you are alluding to.

You go on about propaganda, but if that is the case,  couldn't anyone that engages in debate that has an opposing view be considered as speaking propaganda?  Truly, it is just a debate.


Please continue the debate.

Perhaps some facts won't go astray...
http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/statistics/asylum/_files/asylum-stats-march-quarter-2013.pdf

What does it say (about those who came by boat)?
1) IMA arrivals granted protection visas (refer Table 23):
In 2010/11 - 4832 arrivals, 90.9% granted protection.
In 2011/12 - 8043 arrivals, 93.4% granted protection (62% finalized).

Why are they fleeing?  Primarily because of brutal governments or ongoing wars that intimidate/violate dissenters.  Where do IMAs come from (2011/12)?:
Afghanistan - 3179 (because of Sectarian/Ethnic war)
Iran - 1553 (theocratic brutes in control)
Sri Lanka - 825 (Civil war, Tamils forced to join govt paramilitaries)
Pakistan - 618 (refer Afghanistan)
Stateless - 854
Iraq - 368 (refer Afghanistan)
Others - 260

For the past 9 months, the biggest contributors have been Sri Lanka, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, etc.  (Over 14000 expected 2012/13)

A similar number arrive by plane, but their success at obtaining Protection visas is much less (around 50%).  Many of them are Chinese and only about 10% of them succeed in getting a visa.

It's important to keep asking the "Why?, Who?, and Where?" questions.  Then you can start to work out the "How do we deal with it?".

Perhaps some facts won't go astray...
http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/statistics/asylum/_files/asylum-stats-march-quarter-2013.pdf

What does it say (about those who came by boat)?
1) IMA arrivals granted protection visas (refer Table 23):
In 2010/11 - 4832 arrivals, 90.9% granted protection.
In 2011/12 - 8043 arrivals, 93.4% granted protection (62% finalized).

Why are they fleeing?  Primarily because of brutal governments or ongoing wars that intimidate/violate dissenters.  Where do IMAs come from (2011/12)?:
Afghanistan - 3179 (because of Sectarian/Ethnic war)
Iran - 1553 (theocratic brutes in control)
Sri Lanka - 825 (Civil war, Tamils forced to join govt paramilitaries)
Pakistan - 618 (refer Afghanistan)
Stateless - 854
Iraq - 368 (refer Afghanistan)
Others - 260

For the past 9 months, the biggest contributors have been Sri Lanka, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, etc.  (Over 14000 expected 2012/13)

A similar number arrive by plane, but their success at obtaining Protection visas is much less (around 50%).  Many of them are Chinese and only about 10% of them succeed in getting a visa.

It's important to keep asking the "Why?, Who?, and Where?" questions.  Then you can start to work out the "How do we deal with it?".

What do you propose to do about it then?  Can Australia realistically be expected to solve the world's problems single handed?  Apparently to some people here we do not have a problem so this reference disproves that doesn't it.

Perhaps some facts won't go astray...
http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/statistics/asylum/_files/asylum-stats-march-quarter-2013.pdf

What does it say (about those who came by boat)?
1) IMA arrivals granted protection visas (refer Table 23):
In 2010/11 - 4832 arrivals, 90.9% granted protection.
In 2011/12 - 8043 arrivals, 93.4% granted protection (62% finalized).

Why are they fleeing?  Primarily because of brutal governments or ongoing wars that intimidate/violate dissenters.  Where do IMAs come from (2011/12)?:
Afghanistan - 3179 (because of Sectarian/Ethnic war)
Iran - 1553 (theocratic brutes in control)
Sri Lanka - 825 (Civil war, Tamils forced to join govt paramilitaries)
Pakistan - 618 (refer Afghanistan)
Stateless - 854
Iraq - 368 (refer Afghanistan)
Others - 260

For the past 9 months, the biggest contributors have been Sri Lanka, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, etc.  (Over 14000 expected 2012/13)

A similar number arrive by plane, but their success at obtaining Protection visas is much less (around 50%).  Many of them are Chinese and only about 10% of them succeed in getting a visa.

It's important to keep asking the "Why?, Who?, and Where?" questions.  Then you can start to work out the "How do we deal with it?".

Unfortunately the last two points...

the 'solution' has to be simple enough for a 30 second media grab (when the other 9 1/2 minutes gets canned)

Can Australia realistically be expected to solve the world's problems single handed?  Apparently to some people here we do not have a problem so this reference disproves that doesn't it.

But we're not.
Greece has to deal with over 130000 per year!
http://www.migrationinformation.org/Profiles/display.cfm?ID=884

Italy are likewise struggling with massive numbers arriving by boat from North Africa and the Middle East:
http://www.euronews.com/2013/06/16/hundreds-of-migrants-try-to-enter-italy-by-boat/

I'm not denying Australia has a problem with IMAs, but we're not alone.

...
Please continue the debate.

Debate?

As Carnot said... "keep asking the "Why?, Who?, and Where?" questions.  Then you can start to work out the "How do we deal with it?".

Now try doing that. What is opinion what is fact or some combination.

Disingenuous - try this... If you only heard it or read it ask yourself what their agenda is... Is it just propaganda...

Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed towards influencing the attitude of the community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

That wasn't about us mere mortals but those with reach and influence through the media. History has shown that to influence people you don't need an intellectual position just a popular one. Just because it ups their ratings and galvanises your vote!

Perhaps some facts won't go astray...
http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/statistics/asylum/_files/asylum-stats-march-quarter-2013.pdf

What does it say (about those who came by boat)?
1) IMA arrivals granted protection visas (refer Table 23):
In 2010/11 - 4832 arrivals, 90.9% granted protection.
In 2011/12 - 8043 arrivals, 93.4% granted protection (62% finalized).

Why are they fleeing?  Primarily because of brutal governments or ongoing wars that intimidate/violate dissenters.  Where do IMAs come from (2011/12)?:
Afghanistan - 3179 (because of Sectarian/Ethnic war)
Iran - 1553 (theocratic brutes in control)
Sri Lanka - 825 (Civil war, Tamils forced to join govt paramilitaries)
Pakistan - 618 (refer Afghanistan)
Stateless - 854
Iraq - 368 (refer Afghanistan)
Others - 260

For the past 9 months, the biggest contributors have been Sri Lanka, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, etc.  (Over 14000 expected 2012/13)

A similar number arrive by plane, but their success at obtaining Protection visas is much less (around 50%).  Many of them are Chinese and only about 10% of them succeed in getting a visa.

It's important to keep asking the "Why?, Who?, and Where?" questions.  Then you can start to work out the "How do we deal with it?".

Increased (from near 0) boat arrivals began shortly after Kevin dismantled our WORKING deterrents and have continued to accelerate (almost exponentially - No, I am not going to attempt the regression to prove it) lately. Now this is going to be some most unprofessional science from me (not something I am used to), but I am going to suggest that there appears to be a link between these two things.

However, I'll throw it to those that think otherwise, and ask them for their best theory and timelines to describe some non Rudd (lack of) Policy link.

So my question is thus: Which of those factors only commenced recently and can be causally linked to our current unauthorised arrivals? For example, and only because I know this one without wasting time looking... I will give you a hint, the Sri Lankan civil war commenced in the (I don't really care when) 1980's it CEASED in 2009, hence the danger was presumably at it's highest toward the end of the war (when the SL government was getting serious about ending it) which roughly coincided with .... almost no arrivals in AU ....

See here's my 'I don't have time for a proper test' theory, and I feel it's going to be an inconvenient truth for The Greens and other comrades, the 'push factors' are roughly constant in the range of 'extreme to very extreme' but it's the 'pull factors' (specifically in this case Labor's damaged policy) that modulates arrivals.

The Tamil people are now strictly regarded as being economic refugees, not only by the nasty 'Big L' 'Liberals' and conservatives in Australia, but also by the most worldly renown 'small l' liberals, those being in the Canadian Government, AND the 'even smaller l' International Organisation for Migration.

I 'recently' (a vague term meaning maybe a year or two ago - I have a long memory) read a Canadian newspaper article which suggested their own immigration department (very small l) had an estimate of something like 'well over half' (I don't recall the exact figure it may have been 60% or maybe 90% but it was a big proportion) of Sri Lankan 'refugees' went 'home' for a holiday...

Now I don't about you, but this certainly bemused me, and it turns out bemused those small l liberals of Canada too, because shortly after they tightened their entry rules for Sri Lankan economic 'country shopper' (hence illegitimate) asylum seekers.

OK...

- the pull is all Labor's fault

- they're mostly economic refugees

- the global refugee situation is the same as 2007

Once the word gets out that the LNP is in, the boats will stop (is stopping them still the party line?)

... if they still come, then what?