Marion Station Underpass

 
  SAR526 Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, South Australia.
What about sticking to the topic instead of raising red herrings? Yes, suicide is tragic for the families of the people involved and the driver who is not in any way to blame for the incident, but this is about the provision of an expensive solution for ONE station which raises a precedent for the provision of like facilities at dozens of other places, plus the continuous spiked 3 metre steel post fencing of all rail lines at prohibitively expensive cost to the community.

If Mr. Abbott gets into power, we can kiss goodbye to any spending on rail in favour of roads. HE HAS SAID SO, so it will devolve on a Labor state government to try to find the funds to electrify the Gawler line (a first priority) and that is not going to be done if we spend money on protecting people against themselves.

Does any of you really think that a person bent on suicide won't find another way to accomplish that end, like for instance ducking under the road boom barriers at the opportune moment?

An upgraded lockable pedestrian crossing is as far as society should be reasonably required to go to protect the foolish and unwary. I mentioned that there is ample room to keep people who are inadvertently caught on a crossing safe in the escape enclosure while the train passes, including prams and wheelchairs. I made a mistake in suggesting that the openable escape gate which is misused to gain last moment access to the crossing should be welded shut.

What about increasing the height of all of the crossing fencing to above head height and spiking its top (try jumping that with your baggage) and making the escape gate automatically lockable at the same time as or even momentarily before the main access gates. This would be far cheaper than providing underpasses.

Again I ask. Do you presumed advocates of rail transport really think that the most expensive options will ever be built while we have governments hell bent on advantaging road transport?  And, while I'm at it, also 'giving' us, at our cost, a very expensive third grade part copper wire ''broadband'??????

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  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Yes, suicide is tragic for the families of the people involved and the driver who is not in any way to blame for the incident, but this is about the provision of an expensive solution for ONE station which raises a precedent for the provision of like facilities at dozens of other places, plus the continuous spiked 3 metre steel post fencing of all rail lines at prohibitively expensive cost to the community.
"SAR526"
And just what is your estimated cost of a rail related death (or two) to the community?

it will devolve on a Labor state government to try to find the funds to electrify the Gawler line (a first priority) and that is not going to be done if we spend money on protecting people against themselves.
"SAR526"
It's also not going to get done if we can't afford to do it because we spent too much on a new sports stadium and a hospital which could have been refurbished at less cost.

Does any of you really think that a person bent on suicide won't find another way to accomplish that end, like for instance ducking under the road boom barriers at the opportune moment?
"SAR526"
You keep banging on about education etc, don't you mean 'Do any of you (etc)'? That aside, of course I do not think that an alternative means won't be found, but even so that is no reason not to eliminate this particular method of accidental or deliberate egress to the tracks.

An upgraded lockable pedestrian crossing is as far as society should be reasonably required to go to protect the foolish and unwary. I mentioned that there is ample room to keep people who are inadvertently caught on a crossing safe in the escape enclosure while the train passes, including prams and wheelchairs. I made a mistake in suggesting that the openable escape gate which is misused to gain last moment access to the crossing should be welded shut.

What about increasing the height of all of the crossing fencing to above head height and spiking its top (try jumping that with your baggage) and making the escape gate automatically lockable at the same time as or even momentarily before the main access gates. This would be far cheaper than providing underpasses.
"SAR526"
I don't fully understand these paragraphs, what escape enclosure? The escape gate just opens into what's left of the maze, you are not confined to a space. The escape gate is there for a reason, automatically locking it just before or when the main gate locks makes no sense, you don't need the escape gate when the main gate is open, but you may need it when the main gate closes. What would be the point of it, if it locks before or at the same time? Surely you may as well weld it shut, but that's a mistake and you admit that. Therefore I am questioning why the escape gate ought to lock as according to you.

An underpass has none of these issues with interlockings, it always keeps you away from the train. Hence, if your gopher fails as you cross the tracks and a train comes you will be six feet under the tracks and still alive, as opposed to dead and six feet underground...

Again I ask. Do you presumed advocates of rail transport really think that the most expensive options will ever be built while we have governments hell bent on advantaging road transport?  And, while I'm at it, also 'giving' us, at our cost, a very expensive third grade part copper wire ''broadband'??????
"SAR526"
What about sticking to the topic instead of raising red herrings?
"SAR526"
Well I guess that's a lesson to all of us on irony huh?
  SAR526 Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, South Australia.
And just what is your estimated cost of a rail related death (or two) to the community?

It depends on who has been killed. More than a few do the world a favour by leaving it but, as usual, your comment skates over what was said so as to show how intellectually superior you are to the common herd. I made the point that no matter what the community does, a person hell bent on suicide will find a way to get onto the tracks to achieve his end.

It's also not going to get done if we can't afford to do it because we spent too much on a new sports stadium and a hospital which could have been refurbished at less cost.

I agree with you about the oval, the bridge and the casino's further takeover of public land. I do not agree with you about the hospital and I am far from alone in that.

You keep banging on about education etc, don't you mean 'Do any of you (etc)'?

No I do not. I mean 'Does any (one) of you'. Singular. This is just one of the not infrequent mistakes in English that you make on which I have forborne to comment because it is a waste of my time and doesn't advance the argument.

That aside, of course I do not think that an alternative means won't be found, but even so that is no reason not to eliminate this particular method of accidental or deliberate egress to the tracks.

What access to the tracks does an approach locked gate allow to any one but an agile fool? Are we also to go back to swing gates across the road? Will they have to be covered with barbed wire and be three metres high? It might surprise you that other cities have had electric trains since long before you were born and they still use mazes and auto locked gates identical to ours because the cost of replacing them with under or over passes is prohibitive. If you agree with Mr. Abbott that we should spend nothing on rail during his term of office (which is par for the course with right wing governments since World War II) then from what more pressing projects like the Gawler electrification will funds be diverted to pay for your obsession with unachievable safety measures?

I don't fully understand these paragraphs, what escape enclosure? The escape gate just opens into what's left of the maze, you are not confined to a space.

That space is designed to allow a person caught on the tracks to escape to complete safety. It could accommodate a woman with children and a pram. When no trains are due, the access gates are open to allow access to the normal direct path across the tracks. There is no ability to negotiate your 'maze' at any time while they are open. They are locked across it.

The escape gate is there for a reason.

Yes. It's there to allow trespassers who shouldn't be there in the first place to leave the enclosure because the main access gates are locked across it when they are open for legitimate crossings of the tracks.

automatically locking it just before or when the main gate locks makes no sense, you don't need the escape gate when the main gate is open, but you may need it when the main gate closes.

Why? The occasional trespassing fool is already safe in the enclosure. It is not part of a maze as you assert. If, as is now the case, that gate isn't locked, another illegal trespasser can open it, bypass the locked main access gates, and be deservedly clobbered. It's the train driver for whom I'm sorry in this situation.

What would be the point of it, if it locks before or at the same time?

Because it would prevent the above described stupidity.

An underpass has none of these issues with interlockings, it always keeps you away from the train. Hence, if your gopher fails as you cross the tracks and a train comes you will be six feet under the tracks and still alive, as opposed to dead and six feet underground.

True, but very highly unlikely. You are clutching at straws to mount an unsustainable argument. Build what the majority of Marion people, Westminster School and the Marion Council have all said they don't want, and you will still have thousands of access points on the system to close. From which other necessary improvements to our backward and grossly under-funded national infrastructure is the money to be diverted? Do you remember that the necessary upgrade of the Modbury busway path through the CBD had to have its funding withdrawn to give relief to people in other states who had inadvisedly built upon flood plains? Do you enjoy the prospect of further long delays in the Gawler electrification?

Well I guess that's a lesson to all of us on irony huh?

50 words in all, with 30 devoted to the relevant railway discussion and 20 to an illustrative example of the bloody-mindedness of politicians who make the financial decisions that so profoundly affect us all. Do a little reading. There is a good deal of comment on crossing issues and designs available for your instruction. Don't think that your undoubted expertise in one small area of knowledge qualifies you as the infallible expert on anything and everything that your numerous flip comments over the years have amply demonstrated that you think yourself to be. I'm only too well aware of the fact that I am ignorant of all but an infinitesimal fraction of what is to be known and that I am as likely as the next person to be wrong in some of what I think and write, but I at least try to do some research before I spout forth. I wish you would occasionally show evidence of doing the same.

Again I ask. Do you, a presumed advocate of rail transport, really think that the most expensive options will ever be built while we have governments hell bent on advantaging road transport?

And, while I'm at it, I will again go off topic and ask why the right-wingers who have usurped the honourable name of 'Liberal' wish to foist upon us, at our cost, a very expensive third grade part copper wire ''broadband'??????

There. You can slap my fingers now.
Aaron
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
See NBN Issues for the seperate talk, now found in the lounge,

http://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11375456.htm
  steam4ian Chief Commissioner

Salvage!

The concrete sleeper debate has two sides.
Wholesale track replacement became necessary on the Adelaide metro because nobody maintained it once the SAR was dissolved.
Sure, wooden sleepers need more maintenance, their life is finite and their performance unpredictable, some only last a few years, others 30. What is the real killer is drainage and it was the cesses that were not looked after around Adelaide. The track became the local drain and water was allowed to pond against the track. When the 1980s signalling went in cesses were graded over with no thought of drainage.
The track bed became so bad the only solution was to rebuild it.
The sleepers of choice are now concrete for a number of good reasons including more predictable life and better maintenance of track geometry.
They DO NOT spell the end of maintenance. Ballast still packs down, track geometry changes due to traffic loads and heat, weeds still grow in ballast and most importantly cesses still get choked by weeds and debris. The track will STILL NEED regular maintenance otherwise it will need a bottom up rebuild again.
Unfortunately "the build and forget" mantra has been promoted by the ignorant.
Ian
  Ex-NSW Rail Beginner



I don't fully understand these paragraphs, what escape enclosure? The escape gate just opens into what's left of the maze, you are not confined to a space. The escape gate is there for a reason, automatically locking it just before or when the main gate locks makes no sense, you don't need the escape gate when the main gate is open, but you may need it when the main gate closes. What would be the point of it, if it locks before or at the same time? Surely you may as well weld it shut, but that's a mistake and you admit that. Therefore I am questioning why the escape gate ought to lock as according to you.
Aaron
Hi Aaron , while I realise that [color=#333333][size=3][font=Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]SAR526[/font][/size][/color] has already replied to some of your questions I thought a gentler more sympathetic reply may still be useful for you.

I actually have total sympathy for your lack of full understanding, one of the points that you ( and one which many other people don't quite get either I must say) is that the safe off-track area that you use the "emergency gate" to escape from back through to the ordinary maze, is in fact exactly what its description says it is - a safe off-track area. You don't need to use an allegedly one-way gate to escape to a yet another safe area. you are already in a safe off-track area. You just need to wait for the train to pass ( which you would still have to do if you were attempting to cross FROM THAT SIDE ).

The mis-named "emergency gate"s actual intended use is to allow you to continue crossing out of the rail corridor if you had found yourself half-way across ( after having wilfully ignored the timers both  visual and audible warnings) when both the normal gates had shut. But in most cases a moments casual thought means most people do realise without assistance or explaination, that the "emergency": gate is not necessary in that instance either. It is not really an "emergency" gate, it is a convenience gate.

The other point that you are probably having difficulty comprehending fully, is that the "emergency" gate is well documented to be used as an entrance into the rail corridor when the usual gate is closed. Mostly by irresponsible younger, drunk or otherwise judgement-impaired people who seem to think that the rules of common sense and taking responsibility for their own actions don't apply to them.

I hope this helps make the discussion clearer for you
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I understand all of those things, especially the reason for inclusion of the said gates. Which is why I made such of point of asking why they ought to be locked etc at the same time as the regular gate. If as we sensibly agree they exist to allow people a route off the per way when the main gates close what function does locking them in sync with the main gates achieve? About precisely nothing I'd be thinking.
  SAR526 Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, South Australia.
I understand all of those things, especially the reason for inclusion of the said gates. Which is why I made such of point of asking why they ought to be locked etc at the same time as the regular gate. If as we sensibly agree they exist to allow people a route off the per way when the main gates close what function does locking them in sync with the main gates achieve? About precisely nothing I'd be thinking.
Aaron
Aaron: Please read Ex-NSW Rail's penultimate paragraph carefully:

The other point that you are probably having difficulty comprehending fully, is that the "emergency" gate is well documented to be used as an entrance into the rail corridor when the usual gate is closed. Mostly by irresponsible younger, drunk or otherwise judgement-impaired people who seem to think that the rules of common sense and taking responsibility for their own actions don't apply to them.

You are right in saying that it is provided to allow late but safe crossers to continue their journeys without delay, but it is an open invitation to fools to get onto the tracks when they shouldn't. A little research into records of rail crossing deaths will show that this happens. The Bentleigh Road crossing on the Frankston line has seen several deaths caused by people avoiding the gated crossing by

different methods. Its gates are of the same pattern as those used here.

I think that we both need to put down our swords.
  85trainfan Train Controller

Location: If only I Knew, that would make 2 of us :)
As of Today (Thursday 22nd August) the Marion station overpass is Closed. All crossings are to be made through the maze at the Northern End of Marion Station.
Workers were on site today, disconnecting the lights and erecting a fence around the entrances.
Works has started on the Underpass, with at least 3 trees already chopped down. Contractors were also trimming some others that encroached over the Rail reserve.
I will post a couple of photos later on
  Milkomeda Chief Train Controller

I take it there will be speed restrictions in place for the train drivers when the Noarlunga Line reopens in a few weeks?
  85trainfan Train Controller

Location: If only I Knew, that would make 2 of us :)
An image that will be destined for history shortly. Taken in November 2012 before the Shutdown.
[img]http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8334/8144239559_db0c0c2efd_m.jpg[/img]


The Location of the New underpass, Trees removed ready for construction to begin.
.[img]http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7401/9567415775_cf95cb5ded_m.jpg[/img]


Some of the "dead" branches being trimmed from over the rail corridor. This is being done to reduce the chance of trees falling on the Overhead Wires.
[img]http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3823/9570210432_84177f6534_m.jpg[/img]
  SAR526 Chief Train Controller

Location: Adelaide, South Australia.
It's of academic interest so far as Marion Station is concerned, now that the underpass construction is underway, but I measured one of the safety enclosures at the Oaklands crossing today. It is 10 square metres in area (5mx2m), more than enough to keep quite a few trespassers safe if they are caught on the tracks with the gates closed. They may well get a deserved fright but, if they reach that space in time, they won't be hit by an approaching train.

It would be a relatively simple and cheap measure to install electronic locking of the present openable 'escape' gates to prevent misuse to avoid the locked main gates and enter the crossing as a train approaches.

With a simple maze at the northern end of the station, further away from the Westminster School than the tortuous overpass which is soon to meet its unlamented end, I wonder how many late running students will risk running across the tracks in front of the train which they would otherwise miss. I hope it will be none, but I have some experience of the behaviour of students on their way to or from school. Mazes are quite safe for use by anyone with a modicum of common sense, but some teenagers think that they are invulnerable.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Some of the "dead" branches being trimmed from over the rail corridor. This is being done to reduce the chance of trees falling on the Overhead Wires.
85trainfan
A lot of branches will get lopped at various locations along the whole length of the corridor, even if they are quite healthy.

If you're interested, there is a fact sheet on the DPTI electrification page containing general details of the vegetation clearance zones, and draft vegetation plans for various locations have also been added recently.
  Tallboy-Lemond Station Master

Precast now in place, with the small overbridge and ramps taking shape. Should start track re-build next week. will try to take some photos and work out how to up-load.
  62430 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Metro Adelaide
Precast now in place, with the small overbridge and ramps taking shape. Should start track re-build next week. will try to take some photos and work out how to up-load.
Tallboy-Lemond
Rapid progress over two weeks shown in my album at http://s884.photobucket.com/user/eckyT/library/Rail%20Revitalisation/Marion%20Underpass

Alex C

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