N ho hon3

 
  LaidlayM Chief Commissioner

Location: Research
............
American O gauge (Tin plate) was 7mm to the foot scale and HO was half of that gauge/scale or 3.5mm to the foot it is fact. So do not try to rewrite history to suit yourself...........
David Peters

David, you are trying to re-write history, H0 (3.5mm/ ft) came from the UK, not the US.  The US has never used 7mm scale.

Mark

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  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
So really the scale and Gauge can be the same thing it just depends on how you want to split hairs.
"David Peters"
No, they are fundamentally different things, and this is not splitting hairs. One is the difference in size between two similar objects expressed (generally) as a ratio, the other is the distance between two different rails expressed as a linear measurement.
American O gauge (Tin plate) was 7mm to the foot scale and HO was half of that gauge/scale or 3.5mm to the foot it is fact. So do not try to rewrite history to suit yourself.
"David Peters"
Telling us not to rewrite history whilst rewriting history and geography by yourself? That's a new trick! Got some Yankee 7mm to show me? I suspect not. I think you might go closer to the truth if you go looking at the other side of the war... While on the war thing, you might also like to consider after which war H0 came to popular use about the place, but I don't know, maybe II comes before I occasionally.
Tinplate here is the likes of Lionel, Bing, Hornby and plenty of others, there was actually no consistent scale in these different brands but again they all ran on O gauge track.
"David Peters"
There need not be a consistent scale, once again, it's the name of ... A GAUGE...
Also how many different scales are there for N gauge while we are there, America has on size Europe has another, Britain has another and Japan has another. So what is the correct scale/gauge for N who got it right!
"David Peters"
You've not been reading properly again. It's SANGS, not SANSS! N is a gauge, not a scale, it's 9mm track. Who got it right? That's not the difficult question you think it is, the answer is whoever got their tracks to be 9mm apart.
  chironex Junior Train Controller

Location: The final destination never even comes so sit back, relax, and pray that there is one
The codes are most commonly used to refer to the scale and gauge all at once. To just say one or the other the codes are useless.

Oh, and American O is wrong anyway, legend has it that when the plans went there from Europe there was a crease or printing problem and an American engineer read the scale wrong... 7mm=1' is so not 1/48! Then again since I know there was once some US OO there might have been some US 7mm... modellers get up to wierd stuff these days...

Think I'll just stop using the codes altogether unless I'm shopping... Since the manufacturers use them anyway, whilst not bothering to check their designs, I don't see what that will do though.
  chironex Junior Train Controller

Location: The final destination never even comes so sit back, relax, and pray that there is one
PS yes I know Euro O and UK O use different scales.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner



"H0 is a gauge name (original term and is used in the AMRA track standards)
HO is a scale name (NMRA NOROP )"

Noone else uses it like this. I have hard copies to tell me it is so but if you cannot say HO and be talking about a scale and gauge simultaneously we may as well dump the codes entirely and say the scale and gauge.
chironex

The statement above is to highlight the different uses of the term with 2 spellings. Personally I would prefer to dump the confusing marketing names. My earlier post indicated terms could mean both scale and gauge.


Terry Flynn.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

THE SCALES AND GAUGES DO NOT MATCH PERFECTLY. Compromises have to be accepted. We gamers do it all the time; scale creep and sculptors not bothering to measure, failures to clarify scalp or eyeball measurement, manufacturers declaring measurements/scales to be sayings (or just plain lying), and noone making vehicles or buildings we want in gaming scales (of course bigger buildings are easier to play inside) as well as the terminally addled coming to the party with cars a lane and a half wide just because they imagine a figure magically changes scale when based (and are compensating for something) have led us to this. If you want 9mm gauge for sugar, you have to scratchbuild at "1/67.7 recurring" scale. You'll get nowhere fussing over something you can't make yourself, like a gauge for the Ffestiniog at 4mm scale (Most will just use OO9), or measure, like a quarter of a millimetre.

So pick one:
NMRA Standard: http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/pdf/S-1.2%202009.07.pdf
Proto: http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/pdf/S-1.1%202009.07.pdf
Wiki list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_transport_modelling_scale_standards

and use which one gives the best compromise of "looks right" over "I can get the stuff." (PS they seem to be missing a couple)
Perfect matches may be possible only for specific prototypes unless scratchbuilt. Hey, maybe we'll finally get trains and accessories in gaming scales?

"H0 is a gauge name (original term and is used in the AMRA track standards)
HO is a scale name (NMRA NOROP )"

Noone else uses it like this. I have hard copies to tell me it is so but if you cannot say HO and be talking about a scale and gauge simultaneously we may as well dump the codes entirely and say the scale and gauge.
chironex

And do not forget that O scale in the USA is 1/4 inch per foot to make it more confusing. We seem to use 7mm per foot for O scale. The fact that US HO Scale is based on half 7 mm, which is no longer used in the USA, makes it even more confusing.

It was not clear to me if that NSWGR 60 Class proposed for N Scale is going to be 1/160 scale or 2mm scale? If 1/160 scale I was wondering why NEM coupler pockets would be relevant as US 1/160 scale do not use them.

On the other hand, why do the Japanese also use 1/150 scale for N scale. It seems all Japanese manufacturers, except KATO, use 1/150, except for several odd exceptions on some Japanese prototypes.

Rod
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
After checking with the original poster to see if his questions were answered, it has been. That is always good to know.

Now, it looks as if we have all  slid back into the same old discussion. We had this out well over a year ago with these two threads:

Modelling Standards - a general discussion. Be nice, please
http://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11373082-s0.htm


Standards - Scale names & origins
http://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11373113.htm


However both threads are over a year old, so this thread can remain open. For those new  to the thread, these links may be great reading when you have the time.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
David, you are trying to re-write history, H0 (3.5mm/ ft) came from the UK, not the US. The US has never used 7mm scale.

Mark
LaidlayM

Wrong! Bing from Nuremberg in Germany invented HO scale in 1922 when they produced 16.5mm gauge trains, if you care to check it out, they were the first to design and manufacturer it anywhere! And it was  approx half of 7mm gauge that they aimed for! It was clockwork at first then went electric later on!


The Americans use 1/4 inch to the foot scale were as Europe uses 7mm to the foot scale close enough for most purposes!

Check this link yes it is Wikipedia but it is pretty well right as I checked the relevant info against a couple of model books I have here and they say the same!

So it seems we are both wrong!
  LaidlayM Chief Commissioner

Location: Research
Wrong! Bing from Nuremberg in Germany invented HO scale in 1922 when they produced 16.5mm gauge trains, if you care to check it out, they were the first to design and manufacturer it anywhere! And it was approx half of 7mm gauge that they aimed for! It was clockwork at first then went electric later on!..............
David Peters

At a simple level, yes.  But Bing were manufacturing for the British market and from memory it might have even been in conjunction with Bassett Lowke.

Mark
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
But Bing were manufacturing for the British market and from memory it might have even been in conjunction with Bassett Lowke.
"LaidlayM"
That is mostly true.
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
In this case it was not till later that Basset Lowke took it up. It was made as a table top railway and marketed as such, that is it could be set up on the dining room table not on the floor. It was not an initial success though till it was later refined and manufacturers started to take it up Marklin was one of the first to really give it a go and once they started making models then it just took off a lot more it took years though and O gauge was was still a main contender till way into the 1950's when houses started to get smaller so they changed to HO to get more into a limited space. You have to remember though that these were very crude models by todays standards and indeed even into the 1950's and 60's some European models were still crude they sort of resembled a certain countries steam locomotive but they were not what would be called accurate scale models though! These came a lot later. Even brass models back in the 50's and 60's were crude by today's standards as well. I have seen a few brass models from this era my ex Boss and friend had some by Tenshodo and others and they would need a lot of work to bring them up even to a middle of the road type of model. But they were all we had back then it was them or nothing at all!
  chironex Junior Train Controller

Location: The final destination never even comes so sit back, relax, and pray that there is one
And do not forget that O scale in the USA is 1/4 inch per foot to make it more confusing. We seem to use 7mm per foot for O scale. The fact that US HO Scale is based on half 7 mm, which is no longer used in the USA, makes it even more confusing.

It was not clear to me if that NSWGR 60 Class proposed for N Scale is going to be 1/160 scale or 2mm scale? If 1/160 scale I was wondering why NEM coupler pockets would be relevant as US 1/160 scale do not use them.

On the other hand, why do the Japanese also use 1/150 scale for N scale. It seems all Japanese manufacturers, except KATO, use 1/150, except for several odd exceptions on some Japanese prototypes.

Rod
nswtrains

I believe I did mention the US O, and 7mm is the British standard, not the Euro either (if you prefer, there is a proto standard for US O.)

The Japanese have some sort of cultural weirdness where they think puffing up the scale a bit looks right for cape-gauge track without having to manufacture their own narrow gauge track. Shinkansen models use the same track, though,  so it gets a bit awkward when one runs too close to a regional or urban line, as they are two different scales.
KATO may not, though I have seen them do it, (or maybe HLJ just assumed they were 1/150?) because they also do many US outline models and so just decided not to use so many different standards? This doesn't seem like it would do much to make production more efficient, but someone always manages to make it more complex than reality would dictate.

See also: 1/80 on HO track. Yes, the difference is quite obvious.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

I believe I did mention the US O, and 7mm is the British standard, not the Euro either (if you prefer, there is a proto standard for US O.)

The Japanese have some sort of cultural weirdness where they think puffing up the scale a bit looks right for cape-gauge track without having to manufacture their own narrow gauge track. Shinkansen models use the same track, though, so it gets a bit awkward when one runs too close to a regional or urban line, as they are two different scales.
KATO may not, though I have seen them do it, (or maybe HLJ just assumed they were 1/150?) because they also do many US outline models and so just decided not to use so many different standards? This doesn't seem like it would do much to make production more efficient, but someone always manages to make it more complex than reality would dictate.

See also: 1/80 on HO track. Yes, the difference is quite obvious.
chironex

There was some discussion on the Brass Collectors forum that some Tenshodo models, particularly the Santa Fe Hudson was built over size to 1/80 but the discussion was inconclusive. However, it was noted the Tenshodo Santa Fe Hudson is longer than other makers models. You have to be careful comparing say a Santa Fe Hudson to a say NYC Hudson as the western loading gauge was somewhat more generous in steam days. I have both Tenshodo models (actually 2 of each) and the Santa Fe model does look larger. That may be because Santa Fe had these extending smoke stacks and bigger boilers.

Tenshodo brass is OK if kept in ideal conditions and looked after. Most have not been and seemed to have been purchased by butchers with too much money. Damp conditions will certainly ruin them, particularly if they contain any zamac bits which most of the very early ones did.

Rod
  hosk1956 Deputy Commissioner

Location: no where near gunzels
And do not forget that O scale in the USA is 1/4 inch per foot to make it more confusing. We seem to use 7mm per foot for O scale. The fact that US HO Scale is based on half 7 mm, which is no longer used in the USA, makes it even more confusing.


Rod
nswtrains

I may stand to be corrected but aren't the VR '0' scale models being produced to 1:48 or ¼" per foot and NSWGR built to 1:45 or 7mm per foot?  So which was is really 0 scale?
Bit of bad luck if someone was keen to model Albury.

Wayne
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
I may stand to be corrected but aren't the VR '0' scale models being produced to 1:48 or ¼" per foot and NSWGR built to 1:45 or 7mm per foot? So which was is really 0 scale?
Bit of bad luck if someone was keen to model Albury.

Wayne
hosk1956

0 gauge is 1 1/4" or 32mm if you're a metric man. No issues at Albury.

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