N ho hon3

 
  sulzer Junior Train Controller

Location: QLD
hi all
just got myself confused with n ho and hon3
I know ho is bigger than hon3 because you can buy dual gauge track but can you run hon3 on n gauge and where can you get hon3 gauge rolling stock

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  LaidlayM Chief Commissioner

Location: Research
hi all
just got myself confused with n ho and hon3
I know ho is bigger than hon3 because you can buy dual gauge track but can you run hon3 on n gauge and where can you get hon3 gauge rolling stock
sulzer

H0 is a scale so H0n3 is still H0.

N is a smaller scale.

Don't confuse scales with gauges.

Mark
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
hi all
just got myself confused with n ho and hon3
I know ho is bigger than hon3 because you can buy dual gauge track but can you run hon3 on n gauge and where can you get hon3 gauge rolling stock
sulzer

HO scale is 3.5mm to a foot
N scale is 2mm to a foot

in HO scale a gauge of 16.5mm represents standard gauge track
in HO scale a gauge of 12mm represents 3ft  narrow gauge track  & often used for 3ft 6inch   HOn3
in HO scale a gauge of 9mm represents narrow gauge track roughly 2ft 6inches   known as HOn30 or HOe or HOn2.5

in N scale a gauge of 9mm represents standard gauge track

So  HOn30 and  N can run on the same track.

in HO & the narrow gauge, they are the same scale, just different gauges, thus duekl gauge is possible.

as you said, it can get very confusing indeed. At Railpage and other places there was many a discussion on scale and gauge.  Hope this makes sense.


Rollingstock, many brands out there, but need to know which  one you are interested in !

Regards,
David Head
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
HOn3 is essentially HO models running on 3ft gauge track there is also HOn3 1/2 as well or HOm as it is called in someplaces! But all are to HO scale or close enough anyway!

So if you want to model a scene using both tracks you can as they are both in the same scale only one is narrower the HOn3.

The actual HOn3 tells you the scale is HO, n= Narrow Gauge and the 3 is the actual gauge of the track in feet!
  DQ2004 Chief Commissioner

Location: Hobart -where the rain has lumps in it
N = N scale 1:160 (or 1:148 depends on what nationality) 9mm standard gauge track
HO = HO scale 1:87 16.5mm for standard gauge track

HOn3 = HO scale + n = narrow gauge + 3 = 3 feet in this case 10.5mm gauge track representing 3 foot gauge or 1000mm gauge.

In other words don't let the n in HOn3 (or any other scale such as Sn3.5 or HOn3.5) confuse you.

My personal opinion is that the notations for the scales are confusing (this sort of issue seems to crop up awfully frequently).
I think they should be the scale and then the track gauge if they are not standard gauge;
eg. HO12, S16.5, HO10.5 O16.5 etc.
However that looks pretty unlikely to happen.

Kind regards,

Toby
  MaskedRailfan Train Controller

Regards the original post -

HOn3 rolling stock won't run on N gauge track. HOn3 -10.5mm gauge, N gauge -9 mm.

Most commercial HOn3 stuff is based around US narrow gauge railroads. (D & RGW probably the best known)

As others have said, HOn2 1/2 stuff will run on N gauge track.

Walthers, Ebay probably your best bet for HOn3 gear. A quick Google showed up plenty of gear.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

H0 is a scale so H0n3 is still H0.

N is a smaller scale.

Don't confuse scales with gauges.

Mark
LaidlayM


The term H0 can be a scale, track gauge or scale track gauge combination. The origins for the letters can come from the track gauge, for example N originally was named after Nine mm track gauge. Conversely the name can come from the scale, for example S comes from  one Sixty fourth scale.

H0n3 is a NMRA scale gauge combination, and is defined as 1:87.1 scale, 10.5mm gauge.

Terry Flynn
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
HO actually came about as Half O scale or Half O gauge as it is sometimes referred to! H == Half, O ==the scale. So half of the 7mm scale is 3.5mm or HO scale!
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
HO actually came about as Half O scale or Half O gauge as it is sometimes referred to! H == Half, O ==the scale. So half of the 7mm scale is 3.5mm or HO scale!
"David Peters"
We've been over this before, it's not Half O, it's Half 0, Half Nought in fact, and they are not scales, they are gauges. Remember, SANGS has that name for a reason, and that's not because SANSS would imply they're missing something, although it would be a nice irony.
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Before we head in gauge scale talk, has the originsl poster who wanted help, got anything to say say ?  

Have we helped at all ? Let us know !


Regards,
David Head
  LaidlayM Chief Commissioner

Location: Research
I love the history of scales and gauges but it actually creates this confusion for beginners.  We should separate the two with the aim of being sans confusion in the future.

Mark
  c3526blue Deputy Commissioner

Location: in the cuckoos nest
I'm with Mark on this one.

Example -
    Newbie - "What scale is that train?"
    Modeller - "Oh, it's H0 Gauge"
    Newbie - "Sorry, I don't understand can you please explain?"

For those that like acronyms - This is CRAP.

Even the NMRA and AMRA refer to H0 Scale.  Why can't we?

Happy modelling,

John

PS; I am going to the layout so that I can model in H0 scale.

PPS; For the OP (another acronym) H0 trains run on 16.5mm gauge track, H0n3 run on 12mm track, 9mm track is for H0n2-1/2 trains.

PPPS; By the way CRAP is short for "Confusing, Ridiculous And Puerile".
  chironex Junior Train Controller

Location: The final destination never even comes so sit back, relax, and pray that there is one
Not helped by the mainstream manufacturers themselves insisting that HO/OO Scale means anything but "I haven't a clue what it is and don't care, I'm taking all yer money [raspberry]". Yes they both run on 16.5mm gauge, but that doesn't mean they can be simultaneously 1/87, 1/87.1, 1/76, 1/64, 1/48 etc. (Rl'yeh Metropolitan Transport Co. anyone?)

And, O-16.5 is in use as a name, it refers to the British standard.
  SA_trains Deputy Commissioner

Location: ACT

PPS; For the OP (another acronym) H0 trains run on 16.5mm gauge track, H0n3 run on 12mm track, 9mm track is for H0n2-1/2 trains.

PPPS; By the way CRAP is short for "Confusing, Ridiculous And Puerile".
c3526blue

So lets try and get our facts CORRECT (getting things wrong is really not going to help the newbie).

From above:
For the OP (another acronym) H0 trains run on 16.5mm gauge track, CORRECT! though an amplification could that HO is a 1:87 proportion on 16.5mm track representing "standard gauge track". (for pedants.. Yes HO is actually 1:87.1 proportion, but lets not confuse stuff!)


H0n3 run on 12mm track, WRONG!
HOn3 uses 10.5mm track. Most USA narrow gauge modellers usually use HOn3 as the USA narrow gauge was 3 feet hence the "3". As for HO, you could use the amplification of HO scale 1:87 on 10.5mm track representing 3 foot narrow gauge track.



9mm track is for H0n2-1/2 trains. CORRECT! but with an amplification like those I've used above. (though in the USA they will also call this HOn30 for thirty inches (or 2'6") Shocked )


CRIKEY, no wonder this is confusing!!!



So that is the SIMPLE answer. Naturally life is not that simple. These gauges can be used in other scales to represent different scale/gauge combinations. An example is that Western Australian narrow gauge modelers use 16.5mm gauge track, at S scale (1:64) to represent the 3'6" gauge.


In Australia, many modelers will use HOm (for metre gauge) which is 12mm gauge to represent 3'6" track and they will often call this HOn3.5. In South Australia, many modelers will use HOn3 to represent HOn3.5. This is a historical throw back based on pragmatism. In SA, way back when, you could get HOn3 commercial products relatively easily PLUS it also visually represented the difference between BROAD GAUGE (5'3") track and NARROW gauge track. I have a modest SAR based narrow gauge branch line on my layout and I've decided to go for HOm (HOn3.5) track.


Personally, I blame the Brits as they will always use the term GAUGE incorrectly when talking about scale. Pick up any British Railway Model magazine and you will see numerous examples of the term gauge used to mean scale.


As a curious aside, whilst driving back to Canberra last night after going to the Epping expo, my travelling companion was consistently talking about the "O" gauge layouts to which I'd correct and say "O-SCALE" layouts! Very Happy


Now, I'll let someone else try and explain why we have different O-scales!!!!! Shocked
  trawny Train Controller

Location: Victoria
So lets try and get our facts CORRECT (getting things wrong is really not going to help the newbie).

From above:
For the OP (another acronym) H0 trains run on 16.5mm gauge track, CORRECT! though an amplification could that HO is a 1:87 proportion on 16.5mm track representing "standard gauge track". (for pedants.. Yes HO is actually 1:87.5 proportion, but lets not confuse stuff!)


H0n3 run on 12mm track, WRONG!
HOn3 uses 10.5mm track. Most USA narrow gauge modellers usually use HOn3 as the USA narrow gauge was 3 feet hence the "3". As for HO, you could use the amplification of HO scale 1:87 on 10.5mm track representing 3 foot narrow gauge track.



9mm track is for H0n2-1/2 trains. CORRECT! but with an amplification like those I've used above. (though in the USA they will also call this HOn30 for thirty inches (or 2'6") Shocked )


CRIKEY, no wonder this is confusing!!!



So that is the SIMPLE answer. Naturally life is not that simple. These gauges can be used in other scales to represent different scale/gauge combinations. An example is that Western Australian narrow gauge modelers use 16.5mm gauge track, at S scale (1:64) to represent the 3'6" gauge.


In Australia, many modelers will use HOm (for metre gauge) which is 12mm gauge to represent 3'6" track and they will often call this HOn3.5. In South Australia, many modelers will use HOn3 to represent HOn3.5. This is a historical throw back based on pragmatism. In SA, way back when, you could get HOn3 commercial products relatively easily PLUS it also visually represented the difference between BROAD GAUGE (5'3") track and NARROW gauge track. I have a modest SAR based narrow gauge branch line on my layout and I've decided to go for HOm (HOn3.5) track.


Personally, I blame the Brits as they will always use the term GAUGE incorrectly when talking about scale. Pick up any British Railway Model magazine and you will see numerous examples of the term gauge used to mean scale.


As a curious aside, whilst driving back to Canberra last night after going to the Epping expo, my travelling companion was consistently talking about the "O" gauge layouts to which I'd correct and say "O-SCALE" layouts! Very Happy


Now, I'll let someone else try and explain why we have different O-scales!!!!! Shocked
SA_trains


Ok so I have been reading this tread with interest for a little while but still think it is really confusing. Half of the issue is we talk about gauge, be it broad, standard, narrow etc in imperial feet and inches and then we talk about our modeled track in mm. Very confusing. So I decided to crunch some numbers and got some interesting results.

Lets start with Standard Gauge.

Standard Gauge 1435mm (4'8.5") - HO track 16.5mm - Scale 1:86.9697 - I always thought it was 1:87.1 or something. Is my math out?


Broad Gauge 1600mm (5'3") - I understand some people use EM track 18.83 - Scale 1:84.97 - Or if you used 1:87 scale track would be 18.39mm

I got a bit confused by the Narrow Gauges. I found the following: Most narrow gauge is 1067mm (3'6") Victoria is 762mm (2'6") and Queenslands Sugar Cane 610mm (2'). As mentioned by SA_trains USA has 914mm (3') narrow gauge. So:

USA Narrow 914mm (3') - HOn3 10.5mm - Scale 1:87.0476


Most Narrow Gauge 1067mm (3'6") - HOn3.5 12mm - Scale 1:88.9167


Most Narrow Gauge 1067mm (3'6") - S 16.5mm - Scale 1:64.6667


Narrow Vic 762mm (2'6") - HOn2-1/2 9mm - Scale 1:84.6667


Metre Gauge 1000mm - HOn3.5 12mm - Scale 1:83.3333


I'm sure after all that I've stuffed something up. Are there any other gauges / scales that are relevant to Australia? Is there a gauge/scale to model the Queensland Sugar Cane railways in. I vaguely remember a sugar cane railway featuring in AMRM a few years ago.

Cheers Trawny
  SA_trains Deputy Commissioner

Location: ACT
Trawny,

I think your math is fine.

What I "think" is going on, is that people make pragmatic decisions with respect to what they can model.

For example, HOn3.5 is actually HOm. A metre is about 39 inches or 3'3"! So not really 3'6". To make a 3'6" track would require something like 12.2mm gauge. Yes possible to make, but is a bit painful especially when a number of manufacturers make 12mm gauge track. So a pragmatic decision gets made and you fudge the gauge a little.

This is why the scale varies a little between 1:87.1 to 1:87.9 as you have calculated.

The majority of SAR and VR modelers have been doing this forever. They have made a pragmatic decision to run trains on 16.5mm track because it is easier to do than to make broad gauge track and all the running gear modifications to go with it!
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
What you have done Trawny is extrapolate the prototypical gauge and the model gauge back to a scale ratio and found it does not match the published values.

It is not your maths that is wrong, but the model gauge that is out. Most people use ready-made track, so therefore the gauge is fudged to match what is available. For example, 3'6" gauge track modelled in H0, would be 12.25mm. However there is no ready-made track of that gauge, so they use the closest which is 12mm.
  Aaron Minister for Railways

Location: University of Adelaide SA
The confusion not just Trawny's, comes from people turning H0 into a misnomer of scale. H0 is a gauge, 16.5mm if you stick to that you'll be fine. The others are all 1:87 models of prototypes running on different gauges, be that 9mm (N gauge), 10.5mm, or 12mm gauge. Not distinctly from prototype trains, all made to the same scale and running on different gauges, be they some standard, broad, or some variation of narrow.
  kingcrystal Station Master

The most common scale/gauge combination for cane railways at present seems to be H0 scale, running on 9mm track.

The availability of track, mechanisms and wheels etc in the 9mm gauge makes the oversize gauge a necessary compromise for most people.

Can be difficult to do an accurate model of very small prototypes with this scale/gauge combination though - Malcolm Moores in particular look quite weird.
  damo64 Beginner

The confusion not just Trawny's, comes from people turning H0 into a misnomer of scale. H0 is a gauge, 16.5mm if you stick to that you'll be fine. The others are all 1:87 models of prototypes running on different gauges, be that 9mm (N gauge), 10.5mm, or 12mm gauge. Not distinctly from prototype trains, all made to the same scale and running on different gauges, be they some standard, broad, or some variation of narrow.
Aaron

So if H0 refers to the gauge, then by that definition, is the term OO interchangeable with H0? After all both have a gauge of 16.5 mm.
Maybe in the dim dark past of model railways, the H0 reference did mean gauge. But I think today most would accept H0 as meaning to a scale of 1:87.1. A quick look at the NRMA page on "scale and gauge" suggests that H0 refers more to scale, with a myriad of gauges as per the discussion above. If someone told me they modelled H0, I would immediately think of modelling 1:87.1 (3.5mm:ft) rather than ask a question of "is that 7mm to the foot on 16.5 mm track?"
Damian
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

The confusion not just Trawny's, comes from people turning H0 into a misnomer of scale. H0 is a gauge, 16.5mm if you stick to that you'll be fine. The others are all 1:87 models of prototypes running on different gauges, be that 9mm (N gauge), 10.5mm, or 12mm gauge. Not distinctly from prototype trains, all made to the same scale and running on different gauges, be they some standard, broad, or some variation of narrow.
"Aaron"


HO is a scale not a gauge...the suffix - such as HOn21/2,HOn3, HOn31/2 represents a gauge other than standard.
  NSWGR1855 Deputy Commissioner

So if H0 refers to the gauge, then by that definition, is the term OO interchangeable with H0? After all both have a gauge of 16.5 mm.
Maybe in the dim dark past of model railways, the H0 reference did mean gauge. But I think today most would accept H0 as meaning to a scale of 1:87.1. A quick look at the NRMA page on "scale and gauge" suggests that H0 refers more to scale, with a myriad of gauges as per the discussion above. If someone told me they modelled H0, I would immediately think of modelling 1:87.1 (3.5mm:ft) rather than ask a question of "is that 7mm to the foot on 16.5 mm track?"
Damian
damo64

H0 is a gauge name (original term and is used in the AMRA  track standards)
HO is a scale name (NMRA NOROP )
00 is a scale gauge combination (British term) that uses a different scale but the same track gauge compared to H0 gauge
OO is a  NMRA scale, hardly used by US modellers

Often the 0 and O are interchanged, the term gauge and scale are incorrectly used, which is consistent with some of the posts in this thread.

Terry Flynn.
  Teditor Deputy Commissioner

Location: Toowoomba
H0 is a gauge name (original term and is used in the AMRA track standards)
HO is a scale name (NMRA NOROP )
00 is a scale gauge combination (British term) that uses a different scale but the same track gauge compared to H0 gauge
OO is a NMRA scale, hardly used by US modellers

Often the 0 and O are interchanged, the term gauge and scale are incorrectly used, which is consistent with some of the posts in this thread.

Terry Flynn.
NSWGR1855

Well!

That certainly cleared things up?

As long as it's 0 and not an O it's 0K (zeroK), I'm going to go against the philosophy and stick to scale as being the ratio of the model to the real thing and the gauge it runs on as the distance between the rails.

There, now I will sleep OK (0K?)
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
HO is a scale all American rollingstock is modelled in HO scale as it is called and Australian models are made to HO scale, European even is HO scale models. O scale and O gauge are two different things though and also two different scales as well. O scale refers to quality scale made models but O Gauge refers to the often cruder tin plate models running on 3 rail track. So really the scale and Gauge can be the same thing it just depends on how you want to split hairs.

American O gauge (Tin plate) was 7mm to the foot scale and HO was half of that gauge/scale or 3.5mm to the foot it is fact. So do not try to rewrite history to suit yourself.

Tinplate here is the likes of Lionel, Bing, Hornby and plenty of others, there was actually no consistent scale in these different brands but again they all ran on O gauge track.

Also how many different scales are there for N gauge while we are there, America has on size Europe has another, Britain has another and Japan has another. So what is the correct scale/gauge for N who got it right!
  chironex Junior Train Controller

Location: The final destination never even comes so sit back, relax, and pray that there is one
THE SCALES AND GAUGES DO NOT MATCH PERFECTLY. Compromises have to be accepted. We gamers do it all the time; scale creep and sculptors not bothering to measure, failures to clarify scalp or eyeball measurement, manufacturers declaring measurements/scales to be sayings (or just plain lying), and noone making vehicles or buildings we want in gaming scales (of course bigger buildings are easier to play inside) as well as the terminally addled coming to the party with cars a lane and a half wide just because they imagine a figure magically changes scale when based (and are compensating for something) have led us to this.  If you want 9mm gauge for sugar, you have to scratchbuild at "1/67.7 recurring" scale. You'll get nowhere fussing over something you can't make yourself, like a gauge for the Ffestiniog at 4mm scale (Most will just use OO9), or measure, like a quarter of a millimetre.

So pick one:
NMRA Standard: http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/pdf/S-1.2%202009.07.pdf
Proto: http://www.nmra.org/standards/sandrp/pdf/S-1.1%202009.07.pdf
Wiki list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rail_transport_modelling_scale_standards

and use which one gives the best compromise of "looks right" over "I can get the stuff." (PS they seem to be missing a couple)
Perfect matches may be possible only for specific prototypes unless scratchbuilt. Hey, maybe we'll finally get trains and accessories in gaming scales?

"H0 is a gauge name (original term and is used in the AMRA  track standards)
HO is a scale name (NMRA NOROP )"

Noone else uses it like this. I have hard copies to tell me it is so but if you cannot say HO and be talking about a scale and gauge simultaneously we may as well dump the codes entirely and say the scale and gauge.

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