Gippsland Line to be cut again

 
  L1150 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Pakenham Vic.
Wow! That is impressive performance, considering how long it took to fix the subsidence last time! And here was me thinking that I would probably have five or so weeks of free rides.LaughingLaughing

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  jdekorte Deputy Commissioner

Location: Near Caulfield Station
Well if they can do all that in this time frame, is there any reason why they can't conceive of a way to duplicate the single track section between Bunyip & Longwarry? I gather there might be a geological reason why it isn't duplicated but surely that can be overcome?
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Wow! That is impressive performance, considering how long it took to fix the subsidence last time! And here was me thinking that I would probably have five or so weeks of free rides.LaughingLaughing
L1150


Remember last time they said it took quite a bit of time to build access roads, etc.  
This time around they would already be in place for the heavy equipment.
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
The Gippsland line will be cut again next year at Rosedale to replace old bridges with new.

That's going off what the V/Line Gippsland regional manager told ABC news the other day, when asked about the recent line closure and bridge replacement work.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

With the single track section between Bunyip and Longwarry recent investigations have shown there are no great problems with duplicating this short section including the construction of a second bridge, previously thought to be some sort of problem .

The Latrobe River Overflow bridge is to be replaced  both the main spans and approaches . Tenders recently called .  

Stratford bridge is also screaming out for major upgrade or total replacement .
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
If that's the case, is duplication likely to happen?
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
It's been going to happen for the last 60 years
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

If that's the case, is duplication likely to happen?
railblogger

Unfortunately albeit VLP patronage is booming  neither major party is promising  (for any worth that might be these days) to do anything much for VLP other than a pathetic 20 - 24 more V/Locity cars which will be full with existing travellers if and when they ever get delivered .

VLP faces a number of key issues in the Medium term, none of which are being addressed by either major party .

Rollingstock -  VLP needs a new fleet of something like 68 high capacity DMU made up as 4 car sets for use on Geelong, Melton, Bacchus Marsh to allow retirement of the aged H car fleet and P class locos.  VLP also needs a new generation Intercity train set like 5 car DMU sets or 5 car loco hauled sets to replace the ageing  Z and N cars within 10 - 15 years.

Infrastructure wise VLP  needs to execute these minimum works to provide increased frequency and reliable passenger services within the short term :
*  Completion of crossing loop at South Geelong, and a second platform on the existing Loop Road at Marshall .
*  Duplication  Melton - Rock Bank -  Deer  Park , and a new loop at Rowsley, and an 80 kmh crossover at Warrenheip .  Allows then 30 minute Ballarat frequency, two way running Ballarat - Warrenheip and better service to Melton pending electrification.
*  Extension of the existing short Castlemaine Loop to Harcourt .  Allows 30 minute Bendigo frequency .
*  Seymour line replace antiquated two position semaphore signalling and double line block with a modern signalling sysytem.
*  Echuca - Bendigo  &  Mangalore - Shepparton upgrade tracks to allow 130 kmh V/Locity operation .
*  Eastern line - duplicate   Bunyip - Longwarry and extend existing duplication to the down side of Moe  . Upgrade Traralgon - Sale to allow  V/Locity extension of Traralgon services.  Re commission second platform at Traralgon  (original station platform).

All these works add up to much less than the  $millions thrown at questionable road projects in marginal seats for much les benefits . For example a $ 100m road by-pass  of Drysdale  (yes Drysdale  !!!) for a 1000 or so cars a day to Portarlington !!!

So for the huff and puff both parties are making over  PT  there is actually no meaningful funding allocated for either  Melbourne Metro, Melbourne Link, or the Airport train or anything substantial for VLP .
  Markbrow10 Station Staff

Location: Moe, Victoria
If duplication of the entire gippsland line goes ahead I have a few questions or problems that I wonder can they be overcome.

1. Here at Moe we have the Narracan dr/Lloyd St/High st/Anzac st/George st roundabout that straddles a single railway line, can that section be duplicated without disrupting the roundabout in a big way as its a major thoroughfare? (the gap between the concrete piles dont seem big enough for 2 lines)

2. The John field dr bridge over railway again concrete piles don't seem wide enough? and its one of only two on/off ramps to the freeway

3. The end of the freeway downside of Morwell, again the tunnel doesn't seem wide enough?

Finally can vlocities run from southern cross to Bairnsdale without refuelling? (apologies if this has already been answered)

there are other bottlenecks (I think they are anyway) but I dont think they are a major problem

Thanks

Mark
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
Isn't it amazing how an election in the offing can speed things up?
YM-Mundrabilla

No, the election, which has always had the set date of November 29th, had the effect of originally slowing down the replacement of the river crossing. Speed restrictions on that section of line have been in place (to my knowledge) since the last repair job on the adjacent set of culverts, and the subsequent planned replacement of the actual river crossing was cunningly scheduled to take place AFTER the election, in December. Make no mistake, the precast sections lifted into place last week were made months ago and have been laying around in a yard somewhere just waiting to be installed - at a time that would not embarrass the government during an election campaign for not acting earlier.

The only reason the work was done now is the total failure of the infrastructure in question.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
With the single track section between Bunyip and Longwarry recent investigations have shown there are no great problems with duplicating this short section including the construction of a second bridge, previously thought to be some sort of problem .
kuldalai

I have a cynical view, that no-one will ever be able to disprove, that there never was a geological barrier to constructing a second bridge and duplicating this section with the rest of the duplication/electrification project back in the 1950's.

My view is that the project ran out of money, and the excuse that "No suitble foundations could be found for the river crossing" is a crock. The replacement bridge over the Morwell River includes piles 36 metres deep(!) and even in the 1950's such an impediment would have been easy enough to deal with if a similar level of 'swampiness' was found there.

It would be interesting to know how deep the piles are on the existing Bunyip River rail bridge are, opened for business in 1878 and presently coping well with heavy freight and 160 km/h passenger services!
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
If that's the case, is duplication likely to happen?
railblogger

Probably not any time soon, but it should.

I have heard anecdotally that the entire V-Line timetable for the Eastern region is dictated by that bottleneck. By default this also has a bearing on the entire Metro timetable.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
If duplication of the entire gippsland line goes ahead I have a few questions or problems that I wonder can they be overcome.

1. Here at Moe we have the Narracan dr/Lloyd St/High st/Anzac st/George st roundabout that straddles a single railway line, can that section be duplicated without disrupting the roundabout in a big way as its a major thoroughfare? (the gap between the concrete piles dont seem big enough for 2 lines)

2. The John field dr bridge over railway again concrete piles don't seem wide enough? and its one of only two on/off ramps to the freeway

3. The end of the freeway downside of Morwell, again the tunnel doesn't seem wide enough?

Finally can vlocities run from southern cross to Bairnsdale without refuelling? (apologies if this has already been answered)

there are other bottlenecks (I think they are anyway) but I dont think they are a major problem

Thanks

Mark
Markbrow10

I would forget about full duplication all the way to Traralgon. It is not needed. What would be more effective is duplication through the Waterloo Road crossing and installing a second platform at Moe, so that Down services are not stuck in the middle of nowhere waiting for a Up service to pass. At least Down passengers could detrain at Moe.

My next priority would be to duplicate the 4km of single track between Hearnes Oak and Morwell loops, so that Up and Down services, many of which are timetabled to cross there, could do so at speed. This would involve upgrading Morwell Loop to at least Class 2 and reconstructing the road overpass (Old Princes Hwy, or the first Morwell exit) at the Down end of Morwell Loop to accommodate rail duplication there. We have all seen how quickly a new river crossing can be installed, so duplication across the river and wetlands should not be a huge challenge either. While thay are at it the sharp S-bend just Up of the river crossing could be realigned to get rid of the speed restriction there.
  Chidda Bang Locomotive Driver

Location: Banned
Needs to be a platform 3 at pakenham too because they have to pass each other there so they sit at red signals there all the time waiting to get to the platform
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Not a bad idea since it would increase terminus capacity there too and allow an arrangement similar to what happens at Watergardens.
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

If duplication of the entire gippsland line goes ahead I have a few questions or problems that I wonder can they be overcome.

1. Here at Moe we have the Narracan dr/Lloyd St/High st/Anzac st/George st roundabout that straddles a single railway line, can that section be duplicated without disrupting the roundabout in a big way as its a major thoroughfare? (the gap between the concrete piles dont seem big enough for 2 lines)

2. The John field dr bridge over railway again concrete piles don't seem wide enough? and its one of only two on/off ramps to the freeway

3. The end of the freeway downside of Morwell, again the tunnel doesn't seem wide enough?

Finally can vlocities run from southern cross to Bairnsdale without refuelling? (apologies if this has already been answered)

there are other bottlenecks (I think they are anyway) but I dont think they are a major problem

Thanks

Mark
Markbrow10

V/Locity cannot currently run to Bairnsdale account inadequate lx protection for DMU between Sale and Bairnsdale .  Fuel wise they could easily get to any long distance terminal and back .

At maximum duplication of  Eastern Line in order of priority  1.  Bunyip - Longwarry  2.    Moe - Hearnes Oak  3.  Hearnes Oak -  Morwell  Loop  (Up end). That plus recommissioning second platform at old Traralgon station is needed to run 30 minute Off Peak frequency to Traralgon , and 5 services a day to Sale .  

In reality  just duplicating the existing single track bottle kneck between Bunyip and Longwarry and extending the duplication to the Down side of Moe  station  with a second platform at Moe  would improve reliability enormously .  I
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
V/Locity cannot currently run to Bairnsdale account inadequate lx protection for DMU between Sale and Bairnsdale . Fuel wise they could easily get to any long distance terminal and back .

At maximum duplication of Eastern Line in order of priority 1. Bunyip - Longwarry 2. Moe - Hearnes Oak 3. Hearnes Oak - Morwell Loop (Up end). That plus recommissioning second platform at old Traralgon station is needed to run 30 minute Off Peak frequency to Traralgon , and 5 services a day to Sale .

In reality just duplicating the existing single track bottle kneck between Bunyip and Longwarry and extending the duplication to the Down side of Moe station with a second platform at Moe would improve reliability enormously . I
kuldalai

If the V/Locity  train (standard  gauge train version)  would it have enough fuel to get to Sydney?
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

If the V/Locity train (standard gauge train version) would it have enough fuel to get to Sydney?
melbtrip

Probably not to Sydney but that is NSW responsibility  Melbourne - Sydney services .  VLP at best with NSW Government subsidy could operate a sg service to Wagga which is actually nearer to Melbourne than Sydney .
  gippslander Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland, Vic


1. Here at Moe we have the Narracan dr/Lloyd St/High st/Anzac st/George st roundabout that straddles a single railway line, can that section be duplicated without disrupting the roundabout in a big way as its a major thoroughfare? (the gap between the concrete piles dont seem big enough for 2 lines)

- The Narracan Drive roundabout is one of the worst in the State, with poor geometry and numerous roads leading into it. Replacing it would be a joint matter between Latrobe City Council and VicTrack-V/Line. Unless there is a demonstrably poor crash rate, the expensive job of replacement would be difficult to get priority.

2. The John field dr bridge over railway again concrete piles don't seem wide enough? and its one of only two on/off ramps to the freeway

- There would clearly have to be widening to achieve two tracks.

3. The end of the freeway downside of Morwell, again the tunnel doesn't seem wide enough?

-I think that tunnel was built to accomodate two tracks (with reslewing), but as Kuldalai points out it is not required in that section.

Finally can vlocities run from southern cross to Bairnsdale without refuelling? (apologies if this has already been answered)
- Who would want to ride a V/Locity all the way to Bairnsdale, they are interurban units, not long haul.

Mark
"Markbrow10"



Bunyip-Longwarry duplication  is clearly the main game for Gippsland, as is preservation of large scale freight capacity. There are now three confirmed coal projects which are co funded by industry and Government to full scale test capacity. If rail is not used, the business will go by road.
  DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
Back to topic, sort of.

I travelled over the new bridge today and it was indiscernible from the rest of the track. However, speed restrictions still apply, for at least a few hundred metres either side of the new bridge over the river - including the culverts that were previously repaired. Confused
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
If duplication of the entire gippsland line goes ahead I have a few questions or problems that I wonder can they be overcome.

1. Here at Moe we have the Narracan dr/Lloyd St/High st/Anzac st/George st roundabout that straddles a single railway line, can that section be duplicated without disrupting the roundabout in a big way as its a major thoroughfare? (the gap between the concrete piles dont seem big enough for 2 lines)


3. The end of the freeway downside of Morwell, again the tunnel doesn't seem wide enough?
Markbrow10

These road underpasses would easily accommodate an extra track

The bridges at Moe once accommodated the Yallourn line alongside the main Gippsland line

The M1 onramp tunnel East of Morwell, It can clearly be seen that the tunnel Is of very generous detentions and the railway hugs the North side of tunnel (with a vacant track bed to the South)
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
If the V/Locity train (standard gauge train version) would it have enough fuel to get to Sydney?
melbtrip

There is currently no Standard Guage Version, although they are able to be guage converted. At any rate the Vlocity is designed for Interurban/ commuter work (eg, Melbourne to Ballarat), as well as mid distance country/ Intercity work (eg, Melbourne to Echuca), NOT Intercapital work like Melbourne to Sydney. The Vlocity is as suitable for intercapital work as a Boeing 737 is suitable for Trans-Pacific services.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
I agree. The vlocity is designed for services of not longer than 2 hours. Melbourne to Maryborough and Melbourne to Ararat etc.

The DMU is not suited at all to longer distance routes. They are not even comfortable over 2 hours and do not have any food or beverage facilities.

Long distance trains require kore service and comprtable seats. They need food services on them.
  ab123 Chief Train Controller

Back to topic, sort of.

I travelled over the new bridge today and it was indiscernible from the rest of the track. However, speed restrictions still apply, for at least a few hundred metres either side of the new bridge over the river - including the culverts that were previously repaired. Confused
DirtyBallast


The speed restriction will be there for a little while yet while the track settles. Same as where the works were completed for the Caroline Springs station and RRL and so on.
  pawanoro Deputy Commissioner

I have a cynical view, that no-one will ever be able to disprove, that there never was a geological barrier to constructing a second bridge and duplicating this section with the rest of the duplication/electrification project back in the 1950's.

My view is that the project ran out of money, and the excuse that "No suitble foundations could be found for the river crossing" is a crock. The replacement bridge over the Morwell River includes piles 36 metres deep(!) and even in the 1950's such an impediment would have been easy enough to deal with if a similar level of 'swampiness' was found there.
DirtyBallast

Perusal of VR records would indicate the duplication was terminated due to a lack of engineering capacity during the time of the construction of the north east standard gauge. There may also have been some redirection of already ordered materials. This was also the time it became obvious that the freight traffic foreseen, which was the driver for the duplication and electrification project, wasn't going to appear in the short term, and the necessity of duplication for capacity reasons was very low. That's not to say that the job was necessarily easy, just that it wasn't beyond the capabilities of the time.

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