Victorian election aftermath -

 
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
This morning we wake up with a new state government - I'm still mildly surprised that we actually kicked out a government after only one term but there you go.  What might the future bring?

The PSO program is one of the first things to spring to mind; not quite complete when the Liberals lost office but maybe two-thirds of metro stations now have them (or thereabouts?). What will Labor decide to do with that program - they were literally fitting out my local railway station for PSO's this weekend - I can't imagine Labor will want to keep every single PSO site especially since they will probably need to find things to cut once the level crossing program gets under way.

Melbourne (Swanston) Metro - there's a lack of detail on the web about this apart from a policy release from a few years ago showing general schematics.  As per previous discussions it will be interesting to see the final designs and construction timetable - although who knows... maybe it will take them a while to get this under way? Time will tell.

Anyone else with some observations about what might happen - ?

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  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
There was a side bar article in this mornings Sunday Mail (Adelaide) that the SA Premier now has some extra support at meetings with the Feds now!
You can now expect the Federal Ministers to Sh**t-can all Victoria Industry, I bet they no longer trust Victorians to even build a canoe!
Forget any promised Federal grants or hand outs, they all evaporated overnight last night!

Just like SA after our last election, Victorians can now be expected to be punished by the Feds for Not Voting in Tony's mate!
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
This morning we wake up with a new state government - I'm still mildly surprised that we actually kicked out a government after only one term but there you go. What might the future bring?

The PSO program is one of the first things to spring to mind; not quite complete when the Liberals lost office but maybe two-thirds of metro stations now have them (or thereabouts?). What will Labor decide to do with that program - they were literally fitting out my local railway station for PSO's this weekend - I can't imagine Labor will want to keep every single PSO site especially since they will probably need to find things to cut once the level crossing program gets under way.

Melbourne (Swanston) Metro - there's a lack of detail on the web about this apart from a policy release from a few years ago showing general schematics. As per previous discussions it will be interesting to see the final designs and construction timetable - although who knows... maybe it will take them a while to get this under way? Time will tell.

Anyone else with some observations about what might happen - ?
don_dunstan

I THOUGHT that I heard Andrews say the other day that he would keep the PSOs. Might have been dreaming, however.
Damned all will happen on the ground for years. Doesn't he have to flog the Port of Melbourne first before he has any money to do anything. Not too sure about the supposed new Transport Minister either. We need someone who will know the difference between an A2, an icy pole and a Comeng.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
There was a side bar article in this mornings Sunday Mail (Adelaide) that the SA Premier now has some extra support at meetings with the Feds now!
You can now expect the Federal Ministers to Sh**t-can all Victoria Industry, I bet they no longer trust Victorians to even build a canoe!
Forget any promised Federal grants or hand outs, they all evaporated overnight last night!

Just like SA after our last election, Victorians can now be expected to be punished by the Feds for Not Voting in Tony's mate!
Pressman

The two states most affected by the demise of the car industry are now both firmly outside our federal Tory government's camp. I wonder what that will mean for the future of things like defence contracts and infrastructure grants ("Roads of the 21st century") - as you say, we might get collectively punished for that. Apparently the feds are also taking legal advice regarding suing the Victorian government for breach of contract and/or backing the construction companies in a legal case against the incoming government.

They shouldn't.  It will backfire on them and make Tony's administration even more unpopular if they think they can pull rank on a newly-elected state government.  A lot of people in the fast-growing inner suburbs distinctly voted against that project, people won't take kindly to some ideologically-driven legal action from the federal government on East-West.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
I THOUGHT that I heard Andrews say the other day that he would keep the PSOs. Might have been dreaming, however.

Damned all will happen on the ground for years.
YM-Mundrabilla

I distinctly heard him saying the roll-out of the level-crossing elimination program would begin immediately - that it was their signature policy and that they were aiming to hit their target of 40 crossings by the next election so it needed to begin straight away. That works out to ten a year - it's a pretty ambitious program.

My prediction is that the PSO program will be quietly chopped back in line with what Victoria Police think should happen. They will stay at the major interchanges like Dandenong and Sunshine but I recall reading something from earlier this year where VicPol were quietly telling the government that the program was too expensive and that it needed more prudent placement of the PSO's. I'd imagine with the change of government Andrews won't really care about protecting the signature law and order policy of Ted Baillieu from 2010 and he'll probably heed the advice of the department and scale it back.
  HardSleeper Junior Train Controller

Location: Route 48
They shouldn't. It will backfire on them and make Tony's administration even more unpopular if they think they can pull rank on a newly-elected state government. A lot of people in the fast-growing inner suburbs distinctly voted against that project, people won't take kindly to some ideologically-driven legal action from the federal government on East-West.
don_dunstan


I distinctly remember Tone harping on about how the election was going to be a referendum on EW Link, and yet here we are today and he wants to try and talk / force the new government into it. But I'd like to see them try, every time Tony ventured south of the Murray it shaved another few points off the polls...

Also I was under the impression that there had been several years planning work on Swanston Metro which had been shelved by Denis' Napkin plan?
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
New day, same old services (and lack thereof, being a Sunday). Doesn't matter who you choose. Laughing
  62440 Chief Commissioner

As one who has looked in some detail at level crossing elimination, they come in at around $200M each, some more, some less. With the CFMEU in government, this figure will go up. Are they really going to spend $10B at least? Remember that getting rid of level crossings really only benefits roads and does nothing for rail commuters though it does lower the risk of collisions and train disruption, which is a good thing. Good luck with getting all the demolitions approved, planning consents, contracts awarded and civil works done at 50 sites across Melbourne.
  mm42 Chief Train Controller

Many of the grade separations listed on the Labour Party website could be built quite cheaply as rail-over-road, for example Station Street Laverton.  The most recent grade separations were at really difficult sites that required rail under road.

Here is a link about a new-greenfields grade separation of a 2-lane road in Auckland for $28m, either road-over-rail or road-under-rail.
http://transportblog.co.nz/2013/06/06/who-should-pay-for-grade-separation/
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
I distinctly remember Tone harping on about how the election was going to be a referendum on EW Link, and yet here we are today and he wants to try and talk / force the new government into it. But I'd like to see them try, every time Tony ventured south of the Murray it shaved another few points off the polls...

Also I was under the impression that there had been several years planning work on Swanston Metro which had been shelved by Denis' Napkin plan?
HardSleeper

The only thing I can really find of substance is a fly-through video entitled "The cancelled Melbourne Metro project".

It's kinda interesting - the actual stations are sited too far away from their interchange points in my opinion; Melbourne Central and Flinders Street need to share the names with the locations they're at in my opinion (not CBD North and CBD South). Also, being familiar with the area that the Arden station is supposed to be sited I'd say that it needs to move slightly closer to the tram line. Could help Arden Street oval turn into a new events arena?

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like there is no interchange with South Yarra station.

My other reservation is through-routing to Sunbury rather than to the future airport line as originally envisaged (RRL tracks?). Airport trains will be hampered if we consign them to be stuck behind Sunbury all-stoppers.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
As one who has looked in some detail at level crossing elimination, they come in at around $200M each, some more, some less. With the CFMEU in government, this figure will go up. Are they really going to spend $10B at least? Remember that getting rid of level crossings really only benefits roads and does nothing for rail commuters though it does lower the risk of collisions and train disruption, which is a good thing. Good luck with getting all the demolitions approved, planning consents, contracts awarded and civil works done at 50 sites across Melbourne.
62440

Thanks for those numbers.

The removal of level crossings is important if you wish to add further timetabled services. I know the ALP has said dangerous level crossings and so no doubt are however the benefit of removing them removes the issue of boom gates being down during the peak to the point where traffic flow is severely disrupted.
  gobillino Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne
A couple of points of clarification in relation to the ALPs election commitments

-They have not committed to deliver Melbourne Metro in this term. In fact, they have only committed to finalisation of design/approvals over this term.
-The grade separation commitment is for 50 crossings over two terms (ie 8 years). I'm not aware of anywhere where the ALP has made a commitment to a particular number of grade seps during its first term.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
New day, same old services (and lack thereof, being a Sunday). Doesn't matter who you choose. Laughing
Heihachi_73



Err...Homesafe 24 Hour PT on weekends.

http://www.danielandrews.com.au/policy/homesafe-24-hour-public-transport/

Mike.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

As one who has looked in some detail at level crossing elimination, they come in at around $200M each, some more, some less. With the CFMEU in government, this figure will go up. Are they really going to spend $10B at least? Remember that getting rid of level crossings really only benefits roads and does nothing for rail commuters though it does lower the..........
62440

This is not correct according to the CEO of the metro rail system. He stated in an interview with Jon Fane on ABC local Melbourne, speaking on the Dandenong line, that the number of peak hour services could not be increased any further (although he stated some time slots were availible) because of the amount of time the level crossing gates would be closed. He did state the timings, he did say that any increase in the time the gates were closed would cause chaos on the roads.

He stated it was critcal that at least 5 of the major level crossings on this line (Dandenong) was removed immediately, both rail and road traffic would benefit.

He also stated the Melbourne Metro system had 205 level crossings and the Sydney system only had 5, the rest having been removed in the 1920's and 30's.

Now some few have strongly dissagreed with what I have just said but this IS what the metro rail CEO stated. I have not just dreamed this up.

woodford
  TedHanson Junior Train Controller

A couple of points of clarification in relation to the ALPs election commitments

-They have not committed to deliver Melbourne Metro in this term. In fact, they have only committed to finalisation of design/approvals over this term.
-The grade separation commitment is for 50 crossings over two terms (ie 8 years). I'm not aware of anywhere where the ALP has made a commitment to a particular number of grade seps during its first term.
gobillino

Their commitment to Metro was $300 million in the 2015/16 Budget. That is certainly enough to get all the design work done as well as procuring necessary land for site works - which won't be much but some will still be required. Like the MURL, it would be resold after the project is complete. The funding arrangements for the actual construction will most likely be a PPP, with or without a Federal contribution. Even though net debt increased under the Liberals, my guess is that Labor will prefer to take the more expensive but less "up front debt" and therefore politically dangerous PPP route. The Melbourne suburban rail electrification a hundred years ago was fully financed by borrowings (i.e. debt) which took 50 years to repay. We then (together with borrowing for tram, water and sewage programs) had ten times our current debt.

The commitment to level crossing removal is 20 in the first term and, obviously, 30 in the second if they should be re-elected.

The commitment to Mernda is to build it this term.

One of the things that was missed during the campaign was that Labor actually promised to spend less in overall initiatives than the Liberals. At the end, Napthine was promising not only his own initiatives but to match most of Labor's as well. Cancelling the EWL will save money even if money has to returned to the Feds and if a significant payment is made to the consortia. I thought it rather funny to hear Abbott advise Andrews to break his signature promise to scrap the EWL. Talk about a tin ear. Far from embarrassing Andrews, presumably his aim, Abbott was just reminding the voters, if they needed any reminding, that he thinks breaking promises a day after an election is an acceptable course of action. Most strange.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
I thought it rather funny to hear Abbott advise Andrews to break his signature promise to scrap the EWL. Talk about a tin ear. Far from embarrassing Andrews, presumably his aim, Abbott was just reminding the voters, if they needed any reminding, that he thinks breaking promises a day after an election is an acceptable course of action. Most strange.
TedHanson

The problem is actually Peta Credlin according to an article I read on the weekend - she keeps giving him weird advice and she shuts the rest of cabinet out so Tony only hears his advisers instead of the other Liberals. Johnny Howard would never had shut his cabinet out - recent history shows us that your own party might tip you out mid-term if you stop listening (Ted Baillieu, Kevin Rudd)!

Strange how they didn't reflect on the fact that the public might see that as "oh, don't be silly, it's just a broken promise - everyone does it!".

EDIT: Maybe they'll replace Tony during his first term with a seemingly more-popular female star in the hope of turning their electoral fortunes around? Oh, wait...
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
The east west link will be cancelled. It will be a very stupid Abbott with very little support in Victoria to not provide the equivilient funding for a rail project.
  Gman_86 Chief Commissioner

Location: Melton, where the sparks dare not roam!
As one who has looked in some detail at level crossing elimination, they come in at around $200M each, some more, some less. With the CFMEU in government, this figure will go up. Are they really going to spend $10B at least? Remember that getting rid of level crossings really only benefits roads and does nothing for rail commuters though it does lower the risk of collisions and train disruption, which is a good thing. Good luck with getting all the demolitions approved, planning consents, contracts awarded and civil works done at 50 sites across Melbourne.
62440

What a complete load of rubbish.

First of all, it is incorrect to suggest that the AVERAGE grade seperation is around the $200M mark, that is close to the peak for a project similar to Springvale Rd Nunawading. Yes, some crossings will cost up to that much, but quite a few will be significantly less than that. Also, as has already been mentioned, the 50 crossings is over 2 terms, not 1. Quite acheivable.

Secondly, your assertion that removing level crossings only benefits roads is a bit naive. One of the biggest impedements in increasing the number of peak hour rail services now is the amount of times level crossings are closed to road traffic, without any crossings between say Dandenong and Flinders St, or Watergardens and Flinders St (both will be the case when the 50 are complete), there is all of a sudden the ability to run a lot more services.

Thirdly, Again, 50 sites over 8 years (two terms, not one), that's just over 6 per year, hardly impossible.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Err...Homesafe 24 Hour PT on weekends.

http://www.danielandrews.com.au/policy/homesafe-24-hour-public-transport/

Mike.
The Vinelander

I stand corrected. 24 hour public transport helps me immensely at 9:53PM every night (goes immediately outside to look at the Route 742 timetable). Nope, still no buses at 9:53PM between Ringwood and anywhere. Who needs a gym when you can walk everywhere! It also saves on Myki fares, what a bonus!
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Again, 50 sites over 8 years (two terms, not one), that's just over 6 per year, hardly impossible.
Gman_86

6 a year seems much more within the capability of the government.

Out of interest is anyone able to name which ones were complete under Napthine? I can only think of three but I'm sure there's more.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
I can think of 5:

- Springvale Road, Springvale
- Mitcham Road, Mitcham
- Rooks Road, Mitcham
- Anderson Road, Sunshine (Ballarat Line)
- Anderson Road, Sunshine (Bendigo/Sunbury lines)
  Comeng552M Assistant Commissioner

Location: In Sydney "Fixing the trains"
Liberal spin previously indicated that they were in the process of removing 40 crossings, which included 13 grade separations on the Regional Rail Link (were never crossings in the first place), 5 on the Dandenong corridor as part of the Cranbourne & Pakenham line upgrade (contracts never signed) plus pre planning for a further 7 crossings in this years budget. The only crossings they actually grade separated were the ones Railblogger mentioned plus those that were fully funded in this years budget including Main Road (St Albans), North Road (Ormond), Burke Road (Glen Iris) & Blackburn Road (Blackburn).

Regarding the costs, several grade separations in recent memory involved station rebuilds which would have added quite a significant cost to the project. There are a number of crossings on Labor's list that are not anywhere near a railway station while there are some others such as Hallam Road (Hallam) and Thompsons Road (Lyndhurst) where the road could be sunk or raised without impacting the railway line. If Kororoit Creek Road and Taylors Road are anything to go by, then it would be safe to assume that these sorts of grade separations would be around $50 million.
  Bethungra Train Controller

I can think of 5:

- Anderson Road, Sunshine (Ballarat Line)
- Anderson Road, Sunshine (Bendigo/Sunbury lines)
railblogger

The above formed part of the RRL which was an ALP project.  Do these still count?
  alstom_888m Chief Commissioner

Location:
And Mitcham and Rooks were the same project - they were done together with the reconstruction of Mitcham station.
  freightgate Minister for Railways

Location: Albury, New South Wales
Abbott's popularity in Victoria is in freefall. East west link will be cancelled. I believe Abbott will hand the money over to Victoria but it will
be linked to projects already checked and ok'd by infrastructure Australia. That is the safest option for him.

I am not sure the money will go on level crossings because this is a Victorian initiative. Probably the metro rail tunnel which is exactly the project the money was committed to under federal
Labor.

This project was shovel ready. It would be the best project for the money. The ALP could borrow some money and use some surplus for the level crossing works.

There would be plenty of jobs in the metro rail tunnel and the level crossing works to keep returned happy.

My only disappointment is a lack of train service to Melbourne airport.

It is an exciting time in Victoria.

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