Victorian election aftermath -

 
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Alas, some bright spark in the 50s sold off reserved land to the west of the line for houses. This is the reason the third track does not go to Cheltenham.
TedHanson

Why doesn't this surprise me!

Westfield are known for their antipathy towards public transport and providing facilities for the hoi polloi arriving by bus, tram or train. I think there's a certain thinking that if you can't afford a car then perhaps you aren't the right sort of clientèle for their centre. Personally I think 'why bother' - if Westfields themselves don't care about trying to increase their shopping centre patronage then why should the government care. It was another foolish 'me too' promise from Mulder et al that ultimately showed them up as untrustworthy though.

Particularly stupid as it was those Frankston line seats that cost them government - just like they did to Brumby.

I can imagine the cabinet meetings earlier this year where Napthine was trying to sell the line that "East-West will take care of everything, just stay on message...".

Nup.

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  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Yep, spot on.
TedHanson

Not to mention sucking everything dry of funds to build their destructive truck sewer...
  Camster Chief Commissioner

Location: Geelong
Looking at the ABC website right now, it is predicted that the libs may get as many as 40 seats. Maybe this is not the landslide we first thought. Most governments have a swing against them and the libs have half a term without a majority as well. Dan winning the election does not come as a surprise to me. Steve Bracks in 2002 was an unusual one, where the first term he was in minority government, then in the second election won by a landslide.
  Camster Chief Commissioner

Location: Geelong
Camster It also says the shift to Labor is only -1.7 which is quite a small. Labor are still on 44 seats. But they are predicted to have 46.

Does that mean Labor have not actually won the election yet technically. Isnt a party required to have 45 seats to form government.
wxtre

To be honest, I don't know how it works. If somehow there was some unbelievable turn of events and all the remaining votes went to the coalition and labor did not get the required seats I don't know what would happen. Denis has already conceded. I think Labor will easily get over the 45 seats.
  gippslander Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland, Vic
I partly blame the public for that one too. They saw how hysterical people in South-East QLD got years ago when they proposed sewerage recycling for Toowoomba - even though the water produced was going to be of an incredibly high standard (suitable for medical use) the public just couldn't bear to think of drinking something that might have been through someone else's kidneys - even though all water does!
don_dunstan

Presumably they take water bottles when travelling to European destinations that have treated sewage into potable water for years?
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
The banana benders are funny about their water... they've been resisting fluoridation for years!
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
Recycled sewage is probably an order of magnitude better than South Australian water. Laughing
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Recycled sewage is probably an order of magnitude better than South Australian water. Laughing
"Heihachi_73"

Strangely things have changed in the last 40 years!
Drinking water has improved somewhat with the filtration plants built many years ago.
Bolivar treatment works pipes "nutrient rich" water to near-by market gardening areas for irrigation (so maybe you'll turn your nose up the next time you see a fresh tomato at Coles!)
Interesting side note for all the recycled nah sayers....... at one stage the "effluent" outfall from Bolivar was so "Sterile" the sea grasses couldn't survive ..... seams the water was treated to well!
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Strangely things have changed in the last 40 years!
Pressman

I've been pleasantly surprised myself - the water quality has improved out of sight in Adelaide compared to when I used to live there... previously I used to hold my nose before drinking. Goes to show what advanced treatment methods can do.

Personally if I was Bracks et al I wouldn't have bothered with trying to construct a desal plant. I think the drought was natures way of showing us that ultimately this really isn't a suitable place for a city of 5 million plus. They should have either gone for much smaller local stormwater or rainwater recycling schemes but then I guess the merchant banker and union rentiers wouldn't have been able to make their cut from the state government...
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Personally if I was Bracks et al I wouldn't have bothered with trying to construct a desal plant. I think the drought was natures way of showing us that ultimately this really isn't a suitable place for a city of 5 million plus.
don_dunstan


Though my orientation has precluded me from ever contributing to population growth, it's impossible to build a wall around Melbourne and say...NO MORE Exclamation

The population of Melbourne, Sydney, etc...all cities along the seaboard will keep increasing long after we are all dead.

See ABC's Catalyst program of this week.

Mike.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
Brumby had some pretty poor options when it came to water security:

  • New dam - still reliant on rainfall, impossible to build due to environmentalists

  • Desalination - energy intensive, expensive, politically palatable

  • Recycling - less energy- and capital-intensive than desalination, much less politically viable due to the 'yuck' factor (sadly)

  • Household & industry savings - relies on business/consumer uptake to realise them, can be unpopular

  • Pipelines to interconnect catchments (i.e Eildon-Yarra/North-South Pipeline) - still ultimately reliant on rainfall



The timing of the Victorian Desalination Plant's construction was very unfortunate. End of a drought, end of a political cycle and the burden shifted onto a hostile incoming government.
It was the definition of a rush job - it cost too much to be decent value and was built as a huge emergency water supply backup for Melbourne, when in reality a smaller plant designed for steady-state operation regardless of rainfall and dam levels would've been better.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
I think there's a certain thinking that if you can't afford a car then perhaps you aren't the right sort of clientèle for their centre.
don_dunstan

You can take the blue pill or the red pill.  Red pill is there is no precedence, nor money, in doing such a thing.

Would you, as a business operator, flush money down the toilet?
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
You can take the blue pill or the red pill. Red pill is there is no precedence, nor money, in doing such a thing.

Would you, as a business operator, flush money down the toilet?
ZH836301

If you're trying to argue that big shopping centres don't actively exclude certain kinds of clientèle, I think you're completely wrong.

They want people who spend money while they're there - what they don't want (in particular) are hordes of people from locations with bugger all disposable income because it's no good to their tenants to have those kinds of customers lounging around in the food court enjoying the air-conditioning (because they can't afford to turn it on at home) and spending sweet F.A. at the retailers there.

Westfield is an extremely successful private concern; they don't operate for the benefit of the community even though they might pretend at times like they are doing us all a social service by providing their spaces (occasionally) to community or charity groups. And they didn't get to being one of the biggest retail landlords in the world by encouraging riff raff from the Housing Commission in pick fights with each other and bring the tone of the place down!

Sad fact is, a lot of places that are trying to position themselves as up-market do not want fixed public transport links for that very reason - that those kind of clients are much more likely to show up on that particular mode of transport.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
I think you're living in a fantasy land  - MelbCent isn't full of derros just because it has a station.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
No but Melbourne Central is full of just about everything else (except the station). Went there for the first time in 100 years the other day - what a pigsty. One needs a map, compass, seeing eye dog and GPS to even find the station entrance.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
ZH: It's you who is living in la la land - the combination of the train station AND the shopping centre is exactly what a lot of retailers don't want - transient poor people and students/kids with nothing better to do. It's precisely why you see lots of high end labels in Chadstone that wouldn't be seen dead somewhere as down-market as Melbourne Central and why Chadstone's rents would be miles higher. Chadstone has made it clear it doesn't want improved public transport access - numerous times they've blocked any attempts to reserve land or force them to contribute to any improvements. Do you really think that's a coincidence or that they haven't thought it through? Gandels (Chadstone's owners) are among the richest multi-billion dollar companies in Australia - from one individual shopping centre. These people know their customers thoroughly and they do everything in their power to make sure that their centre attracts and retain the right kinds of clients - the ones who spend big $$$ so their tenants can keep paying their extortionate rents.

There's as much good business strategy in keeping the wrong people away as there is in getting the right ones in. Think about it.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Keep thinking that - fact is, they don't care. Money talks, bullsh1t walks.

Kmart, Target, Chemist Warehouse, Autobarn, The Reject Shop... so very exclusive.

The fact that you've bought into it as anything more than what it is, the same, generic non-descript big box dump as any other suburban mall, shows what they excel at - marketing.

They don't put money into PT because nobody else does - the only reason they would is if they could see a net gain.

So why should they fund PT? Ambivilance =/= contempt.
  Madjikthise Deputy Commissioner

Do they even need, or are able to accommodate the extra patronage? Go to any shopping centre without a train station on the weekend and it's as crowded as an ant hill.
  Camster Chief Commissioner

Location: Geelong
Do they even need, or are able to accommodate the extra patronage? Go to any shopping centre without a train station on the weekend and it's as crowded as an ant hill.
Madjikthise

I usually avoid shopping centres like the plague on a weekend because I hate crowds (with the exception of a crowd at the footy).
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Haven't seen any projections, but my feeling is that a Southland station would not attract many users anyway.  People going shopping, especially if they are buying perishables or cold/frozen goods, want to get home as soon as possible, and lugging your goods to the station, waiting for a train, finding space for your goods on the train, and then lugging the goods by whatever means from your originating station to home, is not practical.   The other question is where train arrivals would be coming from.  They would have to walk to their originating station, or catch a bus or taxi, or drive to their station.  The centre would attract a more or less local clientele, so if you are driving to your station you may as well drive all the way to Southland.  The only effect of a Southland station would be to add an unnecessary stop to the timetable, for those trains which would stop there..

Talk of a Southland station is like talk of rail lines to Doncaster or Rowville - empty promises which may catch votes, but for which there is no actual intention of doing anything.
  mm42 Chief Train Controller

A shopping centre the scale of Southland is not where most customers would go for their weekly groceries.  There are usually smaller and closer shopping centres for this, where the walk from supermarket to car is shorter, and the supermarket opening hours longer.  The larger regional shopping centres specialise in
- clothing
- meeting places (a high proportion of their total rent is from food courts)
- entertainment (eg cinemas)
Customers may purchase a few supermarket items while at the centre, but it's not the primary purpose of the visit.  How many people within the mall are pushing shopping trolleys ?

The main market for rail would be
- centre workers
- travellers changing to buses
- young singles, who usually are in the shopping centre for small items, entertainment and as a meeting place

The eastern section of Southland is the terminus for a large number of bus routes. It would have been great if the bus station were moved to the western section adjacent to the rail station so these bus routes could operate as rail feeders.  We were promised 2 bus bays, but even these disappeared.  The only way  these bus routes can now operate as feeders is if patrons walk through the mall from the eastern to the western side, and in the process generate the foot traffic that bumps up rents.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Clayton campus has its own suburb and postcode (3800). A railway station would be viable.
wxtre

Upper Manangadoo has its own postcode.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
the Clayton campus has its own suburb and postcode (3800). A railway station would be viable.
wxtre

I agree that the potential patronage would be quite high, but how does a postcode have anything to do with the viability of the station?
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Extending the Alamein Line to Chadstone is probably the most viable proposal for a shopping center rail-line. Traffic is an issue, it is the largest shopping center in Australia. Chadstone has as many as 68,000 visitors on its busiest trading days and 20 million visitors annually.

Monash University also needs a railway station. In 2011, Monash had over 63 000 students, the Clayton campus has its own suburb and postcode (3800). A railway station would be viable.

Cheltenham, Southland was designated as a principal activity centre in the Melbourne 2030 plan. The policy is about using public transport instead of people relying on a private motor car. Melbourne's population is set to rise to 5 to 7 million by 2030, So public transport will need to be improved because of traffic level projections with more people living in Melbourne.
wxtre

Why are we even talking about extensions to a rail system that is fundamentally broken. Get the existing infrastructure up to scratch first. Fix the signalling, update stations, get decent and I mean decent EMU Stock, not those crap Xtrapolis Trains. Monash has over 63,000 students, but you seem to forget that Monash is a Multi campus university, some 10,000 are in Caulfield for example. They also have campuses in Gippsland.

Extending the Alamein Line though desirable is not going to happen.

Michael
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Find the proportion that live on inbound rail arcs (eg. Dandenong/Frankston etc. are irrelevant), then we'll talk.

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