Melbourne Metro Rail Project Revived

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 16 Feb 2015 17:54
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Agree 100%.  I think the MURL in places is only 10m deep.  Pretty sure it could be done without disrupting Swanston St.  As initially it has to go below the Yarra and below the existing platforms at FSS.
topher1976
There will need to be portals to provide access but if CrossRail is anything to go by I don't think it's going to be nearly as disruptive as they are anticipating. CrossRail boring machines came to within a metre of the Northern Line when drilling and there were no shutdowns of neighbouring infrastructure required.

Granted, though, it could be extremely difficult if it's planned to go over the top of the existing MURL, the clearances are very tight. We'll just have to see what happens I guess.

Dan the Man is apologising for stuffing things up before they start, rather than waiting until they are thrown out of office and trying to get back in. This must be a new ALP tactic..."Hmm, we are going to spend a fortune and get it wrong, let's just admit it before we start and maybe it will leave us in Opposition for less time..."
MtBeenak
This project clearly has the capacity to deliver them a second term of government, particularly by keeping Labor safe in the inner city. They're already playing a better tactical game than Ted Baillieu did (get into office and do absolutely nothing for the first two years).

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  MtBeenak Train Controller

Mt Beenak.  Isn't this a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't plotical /media nonsense.   Yes there will be disruption in Swanston Street and there will have to be diversions and changes to Trams but it can be managed.   If Dan had been silent about the disruption he would have been damned.   now hes being open that there will be disruption and hes still damned.   Sigh.
Trainplanner
He is damned because he is an ALP politician and is permanently tied to all of their past and future failures.  There has not been a government project which was both visionary and successful since the MURL or the Thomson Dam/Upper Yarra Tunnel project, both Liberal/Coalition projects.  Since those days, governments of both persuasions have only been concerned about the next election, not the future of this state.  And if it is a choice between one useless party and another, I choose the Liberals, because inaction is far less serious than Labor's incompetence, criminality and gross self indulgence.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

How can tunnel boring possibly disrupt what happens on the surface?
railblogger
Sorry Railblogger, If Tram routes have to be diverted, the the Cut and Cover method is being used and that proves that Donald is right and more to the point Denis was right. If a TBM was being used then a big shaft would be built at the Northern End and One at The Southern End. They would be lowered into the shaft with minimal disruption on the surface.

NSW are using Tunnel Bore machines, and we in Victoria are using cut and cover, because I am sure they are not going to use a TBM at 10 Metres deep, it is obvious that they will be using the Cut and cover technique to save money.

Yeah and Vinelander reckons that VIC is more advanced than NSW because we can take a V/Locity Train and get to Bendigo in 2 hrs. God help Victoria.


Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

There will need to be portals to provide access but if CrossRail is anything to go by I don't think it's going to be nearly as disruptive as they are anticipating. CrossRail boring machines came to within a metre of the Northern Line when drilling and there were no shutdowns of neighbouring infrastructure required.

Granted, though, it could be extremely difficult if it's planned to go over the top of the existing MURL, the clearances are very tight. We'll just have to see what happens I guess.

This project clearly has the capacity to deliver them a second term of government, particularly by keeping Labor safe in the inner city. They're already playing a better tactical game than Ted Baillieu did (get into office and do absolutely nothing for the first two years).
don_dunstan
@don_dunstan, the depth at Tottenham Court Road is far deeper than 10 Metres.

Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

He is damned because he is an ALP politician and is permanently tied to all of their past and future failures.  There has not been a government project which was both visionary and successful since the MURL or the Thomson Dam/Upper Yarra Tunnel project, both Liberal/Coalition projects.  Since those days, governments of both persuasions have only been concerned about the next election, not the future of this state.  And if it is a choice between one useless party and another, I choose the Liberals, because inaction is far less serious than Labor's incompetence, criminality and gross self indulgence.
MtBeenak
I agree in part, but Mt Beenak you are falling into the trap of most Liberal supporters. Yes Denis Napthine cut $600 Million from the TAFE sector and many, many jobs were lost especially in the regions, but meh it don't affect me so as far as I am concerned he is doing a good job.

The trouble with Dan Andrews is that he always has to be in front of the Camera, front and centre of everything, rather like a Certain K Rudd. Surely he could have left this announcement to his Transport Minister.

Michael
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Get real it is some inconvenience for long term benefit .  A shallow 10m tunnel can be done by cut and cover  (as  Melbourne Central was built as cut and cover) .  They will stage the tunnel a few blocks at a time no doubt.  Tram wise you could do terminations either side of the works, won't kill anyone to walk a couple of blocks.  Alternatively diversions via Elizabeth St are another tram option .

Lord Mayor Doyle fully supports Metro via Swanston St and says other cities sort these things out, so Melbourne will to .
  topher1976 Train Controller

Location: Mill Park, Vic
Get real it is some inconvenience for long term benefit .  A shallow 10m tunnel can be done by cut and cover  (as  Melbourne Central was built as cut and cover) .  They will stage the tunnel a few blocks at a time no doubt.  Tram wise you could do terminations either side of the works, won't kill anyone to walk a couple of blocks.  Alternatively diversions via Elizabeth St are another tram option .

Lord Mayor Doyle fully supports Metro via Swanston St and says other cities sort these things out, so Melbourne will to .
kuldalai
Exactly.  I am pretty sure they wont be using cut and cover near Flinders Street and likely Collins Street as they have to go under the Yarra and FSS.  I think the main part they may need to use cut and cover is going above the MURL tunnels as this has already been done that way.

As for diverting via Elizabeth Street, they would have to do some tram track works at Flinders/Swanston and Flinders/Elizabeth sts with points and overheads.  This may be a possibility as it will also provide some future redundancies if anything causes a disruption down Swanston St.

And anyway, a fair whack of the tram tracks are a bit worse for wear down Swanston St and could do with replacing anyway.  Kill two birds with one stone!
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Get real it is some inconvenience for long term benefit .  A shallow 10m tunnel can be done by cut and cover  (as  Melbourne Central was built as cut and cover) .  They will stage the tunnel a few blocks at a time no doubt.  Tram wise you could do terminations either side of the works, won't kill anyone to walk a couple of blocks.  Alternatively diversions via Elizabeth St are another tram option .

Lord Mayor Doyle fully supports Metro via Swanston St and says other cities sort these things out, so Melbourne will to .
kuldalai
I'm with you and Topher1976 on this one - we can't expect a major public transport project to be constructed through the middle of the CBD without significant disruption. I for one am sick of the overcrowding on the Swanston street trams - if it means a few blocks of walking or a diversion up Elizabeth St for 12 or 18 months then that's just the price of progress.
  62440 Chief Commissioner

A couple is issues back on topic.
I see a cut and cover 10 m deep along Swanston St. The foundations of the river bridge will be far deeper than that, so it will presumably go under Federation Square.
The station box will be at least 170 m long and 30m wide centred about the track, plot that and see which buildings have to go. Go to Mitcham to see how a suburban box looks and add extra for CBD with connecting links.
On any project of this nature there will be a couple of years work in diverting services and tens of millions spent before you can start.
As a Civil Engineer, what I see in the Age is a simplistic proposal by someone who is not an Engineer and does not fully understand the issues.
There was a doco only a couple of nights ago on the CrossRail project construction which I hope they watched on how to cut down disruption in CBD construction. To my mind, deep bored is the way to go. I admit I don't have the geology to hand.
It takes me back to working on the Sydney Metro fiasco, we were still told to price for work which had been dropped, first Rozelle and then White Bay depot. On Friday at 530 the govt rang and cancelled the project without compensation, despite our contract. They had to pay out $93M in design fees from memory and had $350M or so in wasted costs. This threatened the trustworthiness of that government. On Sunday, two days later, she announced Western Express, a new rail tunnel with 10 car platforms at three stations and a link from Newtown or Redfern, fully scoped although the corridor had not been decided! No wonder I have déjà vu and no wonder I am a bit cynical about the simplistic nature of the proposal today.
  mickamious Junior Train Controller

Great project to build and it's a project that's 100% required.
Yes, this is coming from a Liberal voter as many know and was always in-favor of the EWL but this project will benefit Melbourne in whole no doubt.
I can see great dilemmas though regarding the engineering and costings as Dan is not an expert in this field. I don't think 10m below under Swanston St is going to cut it because of the alignment it follows, i believe it will be around the 20m-25m mark but we will find out gradually in time.
The costings of this project, seem 'cheap' for what it is, the monetary value is great if the return for every dollar is what Dan says it is but $9-$11 billion isn't going to cut it.
The material throughout most of the CBD is contaminated material from all the years of contaminates etc etc Very costly to disposal of but once again time will tell..
IF they can build it for what he say's it is, good job but if he can't no excuses will save him from the wrath of the Victorian voters.
  8077 Chief Train Controller

Location: Crossing the Rubicon
Great project to build and it's a project that's 100% required.

Yes, this is coming from a Liberal voter as many know and was always in-favor of the EWL but this project will benefit Melbourne in whole no doubt.

I can see great dilemmas though regarding the engineering and costings as Dan is not an expert in this field. I don't think 10m below under Swanston St is going to cut it because of the alignment it follows, i believe it will be around the 20m-25m mark but we will find out gradually in time.

The costings of this project, seem 'cheap' for what it is, the monetary value is great if the return for every dollar is what Dan says it is but $9-$11 billion isn't going to cut it.

The material throughout most of the CBD is contaminated material from all the years of contaminates etc etc Very costly to disposal of but once again time will tell..

IF they can build it for what he say's it is, good job but if he can't no excuses will save him from the wrath of the Victorian voters.
mickamious

I admit I never thought I would see the day when you crossed the floor and came to embrace the Metro Rail tunnel leaving behind the East West Link.

I bet you fell better already Smile
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

I'm with you and Topher1976 on this one - we can't expect a major public transport project to be constructed through the middle of the CBD without significant disruption. I for one am sick of the overcrowding on the Swanston street trams - if it means a few blocks of walking or a diversion up Elizabeth St for 12 or 18 months then that's just the price of progress.
don_dunstan
Sorry Don but I don't agree with that at all. It is just displeasing that most people on this forum cannot be objective. I am no lover of the Coalition, but it seems what ever the Liberals do is wrong. As if the ALP is any better! This is Victoria, when it comes to Public Transport we are so far behind comparable states it is not funny. In the meanwhile Small Business will lose their custom and may lose their business but that's OK. It maybe a worthwhile project but lets have some empathy for the People who will be affected by this!!

Wasnt it not 12 months ago that Denis Napthine was savaged for moving the Metro Rail away from the Swanston Street corridor. His utterances about it creating a barrier like the Berlin Wall was viewed as just an excuse not to build it! He is so Anti Rail. The ALP gets in and they will build it using Cut and Cover! And guess what there will be disruption. Price of progress, dont make me laugh, sorry to be derisory about this but a TBM should have been used which involves digging a shaft and lowering the machinery down. We are not building it deep because there are OHS issues with evacuation. Is he kidding? Deep level tunnels for rail has been done since the flaming 1890's and the Government is quoting Health and Safety!! So Denis was right after all.

Whilst many thinks this is a worthwhile project (I still stand by my view that the rest of the network should be updated first) the way it is being done smacks of Cheap arsery. If a project is being delivered it should be done properly.

Michael
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Whilst many thinks this is a worthwhile project (I still stand by my view that the rest of the network should be updated first) the way it is being done smacks of Cheap arsery. If a project is being delivered it should be done properly.

Michael
mejhammers1
If it was being delivered properly then surely it would be much cheaper than $11b?
  topher1976 Train Controller

Location: Mill Park, Vic
Sorry Don but I don't agree with that at all. It is just displeasing that most people on this forum cannot be objective. I am no lover of the Coalition, but it seems what ever the Liberals do is wrong. As if the ALP is any better! This is Victoria, when it comes to Public Transport we are so far behind comparable states it is not funny. In the meanwhile Small Business will lose their custom and may lose their business but that's OK. It maybe a worthwhile project but lets have some empathy for the People who will be affected by this!!

Wasnt it not 12 months ago that Denis Napthine was savaged for moving the Metro Rail away from the Swanston Street corridor. His utterances about it creating a barrier like the Berlin Wall was viewed as just an excuse not to build it! He is so Anti Rail. The ALP gets in and they will build it using Cut and Cover! And guess what there will be disruption. Price of progress, dont make me laugh, sorry to be derisory about this but a TBM should have been used which involves digging a shaft and lowering the machinery down. We are not building it deep because there are OHS issues with evacuation. Is he kidding? Deep level tunnels for rail has been done since the flaming 1890's and the Government is quoting Health and Safety!! So Denis was right after all.

Whilst many thinks this is a worthwhile project (I still stand by my view that the rest of the network should be updated first) the way it is being done smacks of Cheap arsery. If a project is being delivered it should be done properly.

Michael
mejhammers1
You do realise the whole length wont be cut and cover right?  They have to go deep under the Yarra and also bear in mind it has to go under existing tracks at FSS.

Also I think it is a good idea going between Swanston St and the existing MURL tunnels.  This will provide far better integration with MCE.  Also just remember when the MURL was built..  MCE area was cut and cover.

And regarding cut and cover under Swanston Street.  Do you know the constraints or what is under Swanston Street?  How deep they will have to go if they don't use cut and cover?  There could be plenty of reasons why they can't go deeper, and yes they may be able to go 100m deep.  People whinge about the Parliament escalators being steep. Imagine them double the size!!

As for rest of network, Frankston line is being upgraded as we speak.  Dandenong corridor is going to be started soon.  Sandringham line is going to be the first line to have the high capacity signalling  (fair enough too, as it is the best line and can be completely separated from rest of network if need be.)

And short term pain, long term gain.  Plus as I said before, a lot of the tram tracks along Swanston st are a bit worse for wear, kill two birds with one stone!
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Sorry Don but I don't agree with that at all. It is just displeasing that most people on this forum cannot be objective.
mejhammers1
Pot calling kettle?

I am no lover of the Coalition but it seems whatever the Liberals do is wrong.
mejhammers1
Can you point to something that they actually did with public transport in their four years of government?

Wasnt it not 12 months ago that Denis Napthine was savaged for moving the Metro Rail away from the Swanston Street corridor. His utterances about it creating a barrier like the Berlin Wall was viewed as just an excuse not to build it!
mejhammer1
Did you actually look on the map and see where Fisherman's Bend Metro was going? Nowhere. It was a furphy purely designed to benefit property developers in and around South Melbourne and Fisherman's Bend in an attempt to make that land more valuable. It did absolutely nothing to address capacity pressures on the tram network around the CBD. The one really good thing that came out of the state election in November was the death of that completely ridiculous metro line servicing no-one and going places that wouldn't generate traffic.

People are going to complain bitterly about the construction process with Swanston Metro but it will connect some very important traffic generators meaning it will actually get used once it's open.
  topher1976 Train Controller

Location: Mill Park, Vic
Pot calling kettle?

Can you point to something that they actually did with public transport in their four years of government?

Did you actually look on the map and see where Fisherman's Bend Metro was going? Nowhere. It was a furphy purely designed to benefit property developers in and around South Melbourne and Fisherman's Bend in an attempt to make that land more valuable. It did absolutely nothing to address capacity pressures on the tram network around the CBD. The one really good thing that came out of the state election in November was the death of that completely ridiculous metro line servicing no-one and going places that wouldn't generate traffic.

People are going to complain bitterly about the construction process with Swanston Metro but it will connect some very important traffic generators meaning it will actually get used once it's open.
don_dunstan
The buses that go along Swanston St to Fishermans Bend are usually pretty empty.  Think the most I have ever seen is about 15 people on board the bus.  What a waste building a rail line out there.

Edit: Sorry meant Collins Street
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
The buses that go along Swanston St to Fishermans Bend are usually pretty empty.  Think the most I have ever seen is about 15 people on board the bus.  What a waste building a rail line out there.
topher1976
1) Are you sure it isn't Spencer St you're thinking of? I didn't think that any Fisherman's Bend buses went down Swanston?
2) I'm pretty sure that the low patronage is due mainly to the low frequency.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
1) Are you sure it isn't Spencer St you're thinking of? I didn't think that any Fisherman's Bend buses went down Swanston?
railblogger
I thought they went down Queen or King Streets, can't remember which. Number 232, is that the one?

2) I'm pretty sure that the low patronage is due mainly to the low frequency.
railblogger
The original idea was either light rail or a tram line down Willamstown Rd, much cheaper and more appropriate than an underground train line.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
I thought they went down Queen or King Streets, can't remember which. Number 232, is that the one?
don_dunstan
From memory there are three routes, and two of them went down Spencer St.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Pot calling kettle?

Can you point to something that they actually did with public transport in their four years of government?

Did you actually look on the map and see where Fisherman's Bend Metro was going? Nowhere. It was a furphy purely designed to benefit property developers in and around South Melbourne and Fisherman's Bend in an attempt to make that land more valuable. It did absolutely nothing to address capacity pressures on the tram network around the CBD. The one really good thing that came out of the state election in November was the death of that completely ridiculous metro line servicing no-one and going places that wouldn't generate traffic.

People are going to complain bitterly about the construction process with Swanston Metro but it will connect some very important traffic generators meaning it will actually get used once it's open.
don_dunstan
Pot calling kettle?

I have been more than objective, I have criticised the Coalition as well, as Bogong and Mickamious would know except, they do not think that the Coalition is some sort of Divine Group like ALP supporters seem to view the Labor Party. Both parties are responsible for the average state of the Rail Network.

Can you point to something that they actually did with public transport in their four years of government?

Yep granted all the Coalition did is build a few stations and the Bayside Rail Project,  which I have mentioned before about their poor record. Labor's Record on PT isnt great as well after 11 Years either.

Did you actually look on the map and see where Fisherman's Bend Metro was going? Nowhere. It was a furphy purely designed to benefit property developers in and around South Melbourne and Fisherman's Bend in an attempt to make that land more valuable.

Yes Agreed, however my point was that Denis was right about the disruption. Some posters like myself thought that anyone building the Tunnel would use Modern Tunnelling techniques such as using a TBM and that if that was used there would be nowhere near the disruption. Not in my wildest did I think he would use Cut and Cover, in 2018!

People are going to complain bitterly about the construction process with Swanston Metro but it will connect some very important traffic generators meaning it will actually get used once it's open.

And not without substance too. Small traders stand to lose their business, their livelihood, just to dismiss it as complaints is seriously lacking empathy. I hope they will be well compensated.

Michael
  topher1976 Train Controller

Location: Mill Park, Vic
1) Are you sure it isn't Spencer St you're thinking of? I didn't think that any Fisherman's Bend buses went down Swanston?
2) I'm pretty sure that the low patronage is due mainly to the low frequency.
railblogger
Sorry meant Collins Street (They stop opposite SSS outside The Age)
  topher1976 Train Controller

Location: Mill Park, Vic
Pot calling kettle?

I have been more than objective, I have criticised the Coalition as well, as Bogong and Mickamious would know except, they do not think that the Coalition is some sort of Divine Group like ALP supporters seem to view the Labor Party. Both parties are responsible for the average state of the Rail Network.

Can you point to something that they actually did with public transport in their four years of government?

Yep granted all the Coalition did is build a few stations and the Bayside Rail Project,  which I have mentioned before about their poor record. Labor's Record on PT isnt great as well after 11 Years either.

Did you actually look on the map and see where Fisherman's Bend Metro was going? Nowhere. It was a furphy purely designed to benefit property developers in and around South Melbourne and Fisherman's Bend in an attempt to make that land more valuable.

Yes Agreed, however my point was that Denis was right about the disruption. Some posters like myself thought that anyone building the Tunnel would use Modern Tunnelling techniques such as using a TBM and that if that was used there would be nowhere near the disruption. Not in my wildest did I think he would use Cut and Cover, in 2018!

People are going to complain bitterly about the construction process with Swanston Metro but it will connect some very important traffic generators meaning it will actually get used once it's open.

And not without substance too. Small traders stand to lose their business, their livelihood, just to dismiss it as complaints is seriously lacking empathy. I hope they will be well compensated.

Michael
mejhammers1
Do you honestly think they can use a TBM between the MURL tunnels and Swanston St?  I don't think so!

The small businesses will of course be compensated!  He has already stated that!  I dare say a fair whack of it will be done by TBM's but as I said above the part between Swanston and the MURL is likely to have to be done by cut and cover.
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

You do realise the whole length wont be cut and cover right?  They have to go deep under the Yarra and also bear in mind it has to go under existing tracks at FSS.

Also I think it is a good idea going between Swanston St and the existing MURL tunnels.  This will provide far better integration with MCE.  Also just remember when the MURL was built..  MCE area was cut and cover.

And regarding cut and cover under Swanston Street.  Do you know the constraints or what is under Swanston Street?  How deep they will have to go if they don't use cut and cover?  There could be plenty of reasons why they can't go deeper, and yes they may be able to go 100m deep.  People whinge about the Parliament escalators being steep. Imagine them double the size!!

As for rest of network, Frankston line is being upgraded as we speak.  Dandenong corridor is going to be started soon.  Sandringham line is going to be the first line to have the high capacity signalling  (fair enough too, as it is the best line and can be completely separated from rest of network if need be.)

And short term pain, long term gain.  Plus as I said before, a lot of the tram tracks along Swanston st are a bit worse for wear, kill two birds with one stone!
topher1976

You do realise the whole length wont be cut and cover right?  They have to go deep under the Yarra and also bear in mind it has to go under existing tracks at FSS.

Yes I do realise, but we are talking about Swanston Street arent we?

Also I think it is a good idea going between Swanston St and the existing MURL tunnels.  This will provide far better integration with MCE.

No argument from me, however deep tunnelling should have been used. 50 Meters under is about 160 feet, some stations in Europe are 200+ feet underground. If the MURL is 30 Meters Deep, the MML would only have to be 40 Metres deep.

And regarding cut and cover under Swanston Street.  Do you know the constraints or what is under Swanston Street?  How deep they will have to go if they don't use cut and cover?

If there are Geological constraints, they have not been mentioned. Yes there will be cabling and Sewage pipes and the like, look at Crossrail and see what they do. Yeah well whinging, I thought only Poms whinge, bloody hell. Climbing up and down an moving escalator, geez it must be tough. Lifts will be provided for the Elderly, Prams and the Infirm.

Michael
  mejhammers1 Chief Commissioner

Do you honestly think they can use a TBM between the MURL tunnels and Swanston St?  I don't think so!

The small businesses will of course be compensated!  He has already stated that!  I dare say a fair whack of it will be done by TBM's but as I said above the part between Swanston and the MURL is likely to have to be done by cut and cover.
topher1976
Do you honestly think they can use a TBM between the MURL tunnels and Swanston St?  I don't think so!

Who said between MURL and Swanston Street? I said they can tunnel underneath the MURL Tunnells which are not that deep. And if their isnt a Geological Reason why, then that just shows what a luddite backward State we are when it comes to anything to do with Rail.

The small businesses will of course be compensated!  He has already stated that!

I know he has stated that. I did say I hope they will be well compensated, not some arbitary nominal figure that the Government of the day think they ought to be paid.

I dare say a fair whack of it will be done by TBM's but as I said above the part between Swanston and the MURL is likely to have to be done by cut and cover.

Why? because it is cheaper?

Michael
  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Some European Metros were built deep on purpose to double as a bomb shelter !

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