SA to keep Overland running

 
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Just re the V/Line passenger at Horsham Mike - having done the trip within Victoria myself, occasionally GSR train staff will usher V/Line pax to other carriages depending on loading. Unusual, yes, but can vouch for it happening.
potatoinmymouth

Yes...definitely concur, it's happened to me before.

The car in front was nearly full though so we all remained in the second last car. The rear car was locked off to pax as a staff car.

Mike.

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  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
If anyone is interested my Daylink trip today was fine - the bus was full to the brim which was disappointing but that's just the time of year. My V/line bus from Dimboola through to Ballarat only had a dozen people on it for most of the way so that let me stretch out and sleep. My only gripe today was that with a restricted summer Adelaide Metro bus service this time of year which meant I had to leave home earlier than usual to get the only bus that would get me on time to the Grote Street bus station.
don_dunstan

We used to have a Summer holiday timetable as well over here for most of January, however that ended about 10 years ago.

The trouble with full buses those small seats...and I'm far from obese, I walk 5km a day and to be politically incorrect...obese people would definitely be a deal breaker for me...what if you had no choice where to sit Question

OMG Exclamation...I  just realised...you are at the next station on my line...Sad

Mike.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Thanks for the report Don. Most staying on past Dimmy? ie most doing the full journey?Or steady on/off at towns along the way?

No agenda, just curious.
potatoinmymouth
No probs Potato - lots of international tourists (I believe) including a permanently amused Chinese family; the dad had a SLR permanently slung around his neck taking pictures of everything including the servo at Tintinara (!) and a group of French people sitting behind. The lady sitting next to me said she was also a semi-regular Daylink user to get to family in Bendigo and she was also bemoaning the lack of seats saying she normally got two to herself at regular times - I agree that it's much nicer when a bit emptier.

There were a few drop-offs and pick-ups in Nhill and Dimboola but otherwise not much movement from the unusually full bus. I was one of about five that got off in Dimmy for the connecting Ballarat bus. I then slept most the way to Ballarat which was excellent, I'm quite well rested tonight - the first Daylink bus was just too busy to be able to nod off.
Ripper don, it's a shame you weren't traveling, yesterday, you and Mike could have continued Arm Wrestling or Sword Fighting across the aisle, from Horsham to Ararat............. BigShunter.
Big Shunter
No Big Shunter, it's against the laws of physics. Mike and myself can't be too close to each other or the space/time continuum will rip apart and the universe will collapse.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
No Big Shunter, it's against the laws of physics. Mike and myself can't be too close to each other or the space/time continuum will rip apart and the universe will collapse.
don_dunstan

Indeed...a tear in the space/time continuum...all hell would break loose...Crying or Very sad

M.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
I suggest the revenue from the 114 pax would be of the order of $9000.
What is the fuel cost?
What is the loco hire cost?
What are the track access costs?
What are the crew costs?
steam4ian
How would the fuel consumption, be worked out, approx, I take these Beasts aren't going to get 30 mpg !

Would there be a formular, something like 100's of litres per 1000 tonne ( of weight being hauled ) or similar ?

BigShunter.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

I suggest the revenue from the 114 pax would be of the order of $9000.
What is the fuel cost?
What is the loco hire cost?
What are the track access costs?
What are the crew costs?
How would the fuel consumption, be worked out, approx, I take these Beasts aren't going to get 30 mpg !

Would there be a formular, something like 100's of litres per 1000 tonne ( of weight being hauled ) or similar ?

BigShunter.
BigShunter
We do know that a fuel levy is charged to GSR by Pacific National, as increases to the fuel levy was the reason given when the Overland was reduced from three return journeys per week (it used to do a run to Melbourne and back over Wednesday-Thursday) down to two.

The terms would be commercial-in-confidence, but there's certainly no doubt that PN would be smart enough to ensure any calculation used for contractual purposes has a good sized fudge factor to ensure they don't lose out from it even under the worst of circumstances (i.e. strong head wind most of the way, many stops at stations and passing loops).
  cmjl Station Master

Location: Adelaide
Just wondering, what is your classic car, cmji ?
BigShunter

Austin 1800, circa 1970 - one of the last Australian made models.

Has almost as much legroom in the back as a Red Premium seat on The Overland.

(Well, I had to TRY and make the post related to The Overland, didn't I?)
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Just wondering, what is your classic car, cmji ?

Austin 1800, circa 1970 - one of the last Australian made models.

Has almost as much legroom in the back as a Red Premium seat on The Overland.

(Well, I had to TRY and make the post related to The Overland, didn't I?)
cmjl
I had one of those in the early 1970s. As a young buck the main selling point was not so much the space in the back seat, but how well the front seat folded down. Very important when going to the drive-in movies. Smile
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Just wondering, what is your classic car, cmji ?

Austin 1800, circa 1970 - one of the last Australian made models.

Has almost as much legroom in the back as a Red Premium seat on The Overland.

(Well, I had to TRY and make the post related to The Overland, didn't I?)
duttonbay

Tasman I assume Question

M.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
had one of those in the early 1970s. As a young buck the main selling point was not so much the space in the back seat, but how well the front seat folded down. Very important when going to the drive-in movies.
"duttonbay"
The drive in movie was where you went to turn off the ignition and try the clutch.
  ssaunders Train Controller

I suggest the revenue from the 114 pax would be of the order of $9000.
What is the fuel cost?
What is the loco hire cost?
What are the track access costs?
What are the crew costs?
How would the fuel consumption, be worked out, approx, I take these Beasts aren't going to get 30 mpg !

Would there be a formular, something like 100's of litres per 1000 tonne ( of weight being hauled ) or similar ?

BigShunter.
BigShunter

The engine manufacturer knows how much the fuel burn is in each notch by time. eg at idle the motor burns 40 litres per hour and in notch 8 it burns 700 litres per hour. Then the operator can look at the route and work it out.
  Fatty Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
I suggest the revenue from the 114 pax would be of the order of $9000.
What is the fuel cost?
What is the loco hire cost?
What are the track access costs?
What are the crew costs?
How would the fuel consumption, be worked out, approx, I take these Beasts aren't going to get 30 mpg !

Would there be a formular, something like 100's of litres per 1000 tonne ( of weight being hauled ) or similar ?

BigShunter.
BigShunter
Fuel usage is generally measured in litres per gross tonne kilometre (GTK) : https://stats.oecd.org/glossary/detail.asp?ID=3974
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
The direct fuel costs to GSR would be for the power van plus any levy imposed by GSR.    

I would expect the hook and pull contract with PN to include all of PN's costs including the direct costs of their fuel and wages, as well as the the various overheads including the afore mentioned "fudge factor" which would come to a figure competitive with the other rail operators, but not so low as to be unprofitable.

Which leads to the question: "Why did PN get the contract in the first place?   Was it because in 1997 they were the only really nationwide operator?"
  neillfarmer Chief Train Controller

PN got the contract when the G&W CLPs proved too unreliable.
  BigShunter Chief Commissioner

Location: St Clair. S.A.
Well, we got there, eventually, thanks ssaunders and Fatty, and cmjl, for fuel and car info.

Fuel usage is Horrendous at full tilt, you can only imagine, the juice used, between Adelaide and Melbourne, although you're not going to be running at full throttle for the whole journey. Start running the numbers on a trip from Sydney to Perth....... sheeezzz

BigShunter.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/keeping-sharp-airlines-in-the-air-in-western-victoria/
Victoria has bailed out another Western Cic transport operator.
  kipioneer Chief Commissioner

Location: Aberfoyle Park
PN got the contract when the G&W CLPs proved too unreliable.
neillfarmer
Are you sure?

The CLP had successfully handled all 3 ANR long distance trains from their introduction in 1992, the Overland in 1995, until the day GSR took over.   With head-end power it was suited to those trains.

The final ANR train from Melbourne to Adelaide was hauled by a CLP and the first GSR train to Melbourne that evening by an NR, and incidentally minus the club car and plus a power van.

At the sale of ANR in 1997 there was only one national operator, National Rail.    The only other operator in SA was startup ASR which had a fleet of ageing 800 HP and 1600-1800 HP locomotives the youngest of which were the 700 class.   Even these were 26 years old.

ASR had a fleet of 25 more modern higher horsepower locomotives: the ALF and CLP/F classes, rebuilt in 1994 and 1992 respectively so effectively only 3 to 7 years old.

The other more modern higher horsepower locomotives, the BL, DL and AN classes has passed from AN to NR, and the EL class was excluded from the sale.

All the other operators in Australia were state-based government systems.

If ASR was reluctant to make an offer the only logical operator for GSR was NR.
  bingley hall Minister for Railways

Location: Last train to Skaville
PN got the contract when the G&W CLPs proved too unreliable.
Are you sure?

The CLP had successfully handled all 3 ANR long distance trains from their introduction in 1992, the Overland in 1995, until the day GSR took over.   With head-end power it was suited to those trains.

The final ANR train from Melbourne to Adelaide was hauled by a CLP and the first GSR train to Melbourne that evening by an NR, and incidentally minus the club car and plus a power van.

At the sale of ANR in 1997 there was only one national operator, National Rail.    The only other operator in SA was startup ASR which had a fleet of ageing 800 HP and 1600-1800 HP locomotives the youngest of which were the 700 class.   Even these were 26 years old.

ASR had a fleet of 25 more modern higher horsepower locomotives: the ALF and CLP/F classes, rebuilt in 1994 and 1992 respectively so effectively only 3 to 7 years old.

The other more modern higher horsepower locomotives, the BL, DL and AN classes has passed from AN to NR, and the EL class was excluded from the sale.

All the other operators in Australia were state-based government systems.

If ASR was reluctant to make an offer the only logical operator for GSR was NR.
kipioneer

Just about nailed it.

From memory ASR were in the bidding for the passenger business with one of their consortia partners, but missed out because of the decision by the Feds to split up the AN business three ways.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Victoria is the most reliant out of all the states on stamp duty, collecting a shade over six billion from it last financial year. So far this year the number of settled sales is down 15.8% in Melbourne alone and the fall in Melbourne prices will substantially reduce the tax take because it's a progressive tax. So they're already projected to be down a billion dollars - where will that money come from?

I'd suggest that The Overland is a good place to start cutting.
don_dunstan
Precisely why we need a broad based land tax instead. To decouple states reliance on stamp duty that impacts policy choices.  If they have to focus on improving land values, then that is going to lead a whole lot of other policy outcomes like increasing the productivity of that land.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/keeping-sharp-airlines-in-the-air-in-western-victoria/
Victoria has bailed out another Western Cic transport operator.
potatoinmymouth
Nice find.  Ive thrown it open to the airliners.net community to see what other thoughts are there.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
Victoria is the most reliant out of all the states on stamp duty, collecting a shade over six billion from it last financial year. So far this year the number of settled sales is down 15.8% in Melbourne alone and the fall in Melbourne prices will substantially reduce the tax take because it's a progressive tax. So they're already projected to be down a billion dollars - where will that money come from?

I'd suggest that The Overland is a good place to start cutting.
Precisely why we need a broad based land tax instead. To decouple states reliance on stamp duty that impacts policy choices.  If they have to focus on improving land values, then that is going to lead a whole lot of other policy outcomes like increasing the productivity of that land.
james.au
I'd go even further and say that because labour's share of GDP is declining rapidly we should shift the taxation system from taxing labour to taxing capital, especially speculative capital. CGT on real estate capital gains badly needs to be increased, although by the looks of the Aussie property market we've missed the window of opportunity for the time being.
  don_dunstan The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Adelaide proud
My Jetstar flight back from Melbourne yesterday was totally uneventful but it reminded me of why I don't bother with the poor old Overland.

Managed to book out of my city hotel and stored my luggage there free of charge at around 9am - I had time to tram it out to Chapel Street for some op shopping, met a friend for lunch before catching a train from Windsor back to town. Then to the Bureau of Meteorology next to Southern Cross and picked up a 2019 calendar, picked up my luggage and got a Skybus to Tullamarine with plenty of time to spare. Booked my luggage in (I hate lugging bags onto the plane so I always get that option if I can) and then read my book until boarding time at Terminal Four.

The plane was full to the brim but I got an emergency exit seat so I could stretch out and doze a bit, the only thing I took into the cabin was a neck pillow and my book. Very short flight, next thing I woke up to see us descending down the Torrens Valley to the airport then onto an Adelaide Metro bus to the city about 4:10pm (SA time). I was relaxing at home by just on 5pm.

All that for $81, eight dollars less than the comparable Overland discount fare - although the Skybus was $20. Could have avoided that if I'd bothered with the 901 bus, virtually free given I'd already reached the Myki cap for the day but it does take much longer as you've got to meet it at Broady station.
  justapassenger Minister for Railways

Wouldn't the NR's be ideal for a small train like the Overland ?  They are Cv40-9i models with the "v" being variable horsepower and supposedly lower fuel consumption.
GS4
The variable power option on the NR Class is very unsophisticated, the two settings simply restrict the driver to using notch 6 or notch 7.

I have it from a recent PN driver that
(a) the Overland is such a light train that they never get into the top two notches in the first place so the power restriction is meaningless, and
(b) drivers don't bother with it because they are capable of choosing their power notches themselves.

More modern locos have more effective power reduction systems which maintain the granularity of the controls at the same time.
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Don you got ripped off!

My last Jetstar tix a month or two ago were $79 and I got an uber to Tully for $16!

I could have walked the 20km from the airport to my house and beat the Overland schedule.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
Victoria is the most reliant out of all the states on stamp duty, collecting a shade over six billion from it last financial year. So far this year the number of settled sales is down 15.8% in Melbourne alone and the fall in Melbourne prices will substantially reduce the tax take because it's a progressive tax. So they're already projected to be down a billion dollars - where will that money come from?

I'd suggest that The Overland is a good place to start cutting.
Precisely why we need a broad based land tax instead. To decouple states reliance on stamp duty that impacts policy choices.  If they have to focus on improving land values, then that is going to lead a whole lot of other policy outcomes like increasing the productivity of that land.
I'd go even further and say that because labour's share of GDP is declining rapidly we should shift the taxation system from taxing labour to taxing capital, especially speculative capital. CGT on real estate capital gains badly needs to be increased, although by the looks of the Aussie property market we've missed the window of opportunity for the time being.
don_dunstan
Land tax is actually a tax on capital stock (as opposed to capital flow for stamp duty) so would do what your suggesting.  Its also unable to escape the country, so represents a very low flight risk.

Id say taking away most of the capital gains concession and means testing the primary residence exemption (and/or making the amount over the mean house price taxable and the amount below the mean tax free) would go a long way to this.

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