It's the economy, stupid!

 
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
One for you Don

Record +500k foreign students studying in Oz, up from 350k 5 years ago. Each forking out around $30-50k or more in fees and living costs driving major campus capital investments employing tradesman/woman and other services.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-18/australia-hosting-unprecedented-numbers-international-students/9669030?section=business

There is a reference to the "Group of 8" Uni's, I had to look this up but no real surprises

Uni of Sydney
Uni of NSW
ANU
Uni of Qld
Uni of Mel
Monash Uni
Uni of WA
Uni of Adelaide (see, SA is not forgotten Don)

FYI - One of the reasons Australia is so popular regardless of what you think of position on Global Uni positions is that for many foreign students when they go back home, English is everything and will dictate there future career. If you have the big money go to Harvard, Oxford etc. But for the bulk of the world's non-English speaking middle class, this is out of their range, so go to Australia, get a degree that has some weight from a trusted institution free from corruption, safe and also more importantly come back home fluent in English because large corporations in places like India, China etc often do job interviews only in English and the official company language at the Supervisory levels and above is in English. Additionally Graduates are often used as translators as the older work force often has poor or no English.

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  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Why Immigration so high

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-04-17/budget-would-suffer-if-australia-cut-immigration-report-shows/9666232

Of interest is the reference to refugees, which over the last 10 years has proven to be a failed strategy as very low levels of employment and integration which supports the crack down on border security and being more choosy helping legitimate, typically family refugees.

Key points:
  • Joint Treasury-Home Affairs report states migrants deliver economic dividend to Australia, contributing nearly $10b to budget
  • If migration rate was cut, report warns workforce would begin shrinking, resulting in lower GDP
  • Only migrants found to cost budget over their lifetime are refugees, those on humanitarian visas
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Shane, what do you think those overseas student numbers would be if:
  • The prospect of Australian citizenship at the end of the course was removed
  • Overseas students were not permitted to work - at all - and this was actually policed?

You've been drinking the globalisation Kool Aid a bit too much. You have personally benefited from education and globalisation and that's wonderful but not everyone has benefited from it and I think personally our major cities on the eastern seaboard have become pretty unbearable because of it. People in Sydney and Melbourne have experienced significant decrease in amenity because of mass migration and uncontrolled development, there's no question.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Shane, what do you think those overseas student numbers would be if:
  • The prospect of Australian citizenship at the end of the course was removed
  • Overseas students were not permitted to work - at all - and this was actually policed?

You've been drinking the globalisation Kool Aid a bit too much. You have personally benefited from education and globalisation and that's wonderful but not everyone has benefited from it and I think personally our major cities on the eastern seaboard have become pretty unbearable because of it. People in Sydney and Melbourne have experienced significant decrease in amenity because of mass migration and uncontrolled development, there's no question.
don_dunstan
1) My understand is the ability to apply for PR while on Student Visa is now more difficult
https://www.studiesinaustralia.com/studying-in-australia/how-to-study-in-australia/student-visas/once-you-have-finished-your-studies

2) I have no issue what so ever in allowing foreign students to work PART-TIME/CASUAL limited to current 20h a week while studying as they can in most countries in the world. However they must be paid same as Citizens and offered same protections.

Students typically don't compete with family style accommodation and 550,000 students spread out over 6 cities is in reality small and not they are dumping foreign money into the economy. 100,000 in Syd and same Mel, usually sharing or staying on campus.

Assume the 550,000 is evenly spread over a 4 year degree that's roughly 130,000 each year graduating, they compete for the quota of PR's available each year do they not? and this includes suitable skills and other checks that all migrants go through?

Australia has around 35,000 students overseas, you would expect that they too be entitled to work part-time if they choose to supplement their cost of living.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
2) I have no issue what so ever in allowing foreign students to work PART-TIME/CASUAL limited to current 20h a week while studying as they can in most countries in the world. However they must be paid same as Citizens and offered same protections.
RTT_Rules
This is a huge problem in itself because there is tons of evidence that they undermine local wages.

These kinds of arguments tend to get very circular with you, Shane. Just saying.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Australia has around 35,000 students overseas, you would expect that they too be entitled to work part-time if they choose to supplement their cost of living.
RTT_Rules
It's very, very restrictive overseas, my understanding is that you generally aren't allowed to work at all while studying in foreign nations or if you are it's very few few hours.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Australia has around 35,000 students overseas, you would expect that they too be entitled to work part-time if they choose to supplement their cost of living.
It's very, very restrictive overseas, my understanding is that you generally aren't allowed to work at all while studying in foreign nations or if you are it's very few few hours.
don_dunstan
Your understanding is basically wrong, unless refering to developing nations. Don't know how often I've been served a beer by students not from that country while travelling.

As a guide its up to 20h a week during term and full time out of term.

http://scholarship-positions.com/blog/international-students-work-while-studying/201406/

https://www.gooverseas.com/blog/can-you-work-while-studying-abroad

I was in Tanzania a few months back and it was uni students on working holidays taking to dive with Whale Sharks, the students were white! Paid $50 a day!

Even Dubai is changing rules so part-time work is allowed for uni students.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
2) I have no issue what so ever in allowing foreign students to work PART-TIME/CASUAL limited to current 20h a week while studying as they can in most countries in the world. However they must be paid same as Citizens and offered same protections.
This is a huge problem in itself because there is tons of evidence that they undermine local wages.

These kinds of arguments tend to get very circular with you, Shane. Just saying.
don_dunstan
Its not circular at all, unless you want it to be!

So you solve the real problem which also extends to locals being underpaid, not implement unrealistic rules that just pushes it all underground working for cash which would create a large scale issue as many foreign students would be looking to fill short falls in parental funding and cost of studying.

These problems are usually resolved with large scale fines, ability to close the business and confidential reporting systems that ensure full back pay is provided with compensation for up to 5 years should the employer found to be ripping the employee off.

I don't know what fine 7-11 got over their case, but if the fine was leveraged at say $100k per employee single employment period + full back pay with interest for all employees, how many prosecutions do you think are required before its no longer a significant problem?
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
As a guide its up to 20h a week during term and full time out of term.
RTT_Rules
Did it occur to you that backpackers and working visa tourists may have been serving you your beer? This is another one of these things that you think you know the answer but then you haven't actually lived here for a very long time so you are wrong.

I don't know what fine 7-11 got over their case, but if the fine was leveraged at say $100k per employee single employment period + full back pay with interest for all employees, how many prosecutions do you think are required before its no longer a significant problem?
RTT_Rules
Seven-Eleven's legal team have been working hard to ensure that they get nothing more than a slap on the wrist; same with Caltex, they tried to hive the blame off to their (mostly Indian) franchisees for importing Indian students and then exploiting the buggery out of them. Plausible deniability... and the penalties really aren't that great if you get caught so why wouldn't you do it? Bruce Bilson, our former Small Business Minister under the Abbott government - went straight to work for the Franchise Council and he's also been making sure that any attempts to enforce minimum standards in retail have been scuttled in Parliament.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Prestigious celebrity-owned restaurants don't care about underpaying staff (ABC) - why should anyone else care? The punishments are very light.
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
Australia has around 35,000 students overseas, you would expect that they too be entitled to work part-time if they choose to supplement their cost of living.
It's very, very restrictive overseas, my understanding is that you generally aren't allowed to work at all while studying in foreign nations or if you are it's very few few hours.
don_dunstan
In the European country where I live, foreign students are allowed to work generally to similar restrictions as in AU, and no restrictions when on semester breaks.

Cheers
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
As a guide its up to 20h a week during term and full time out of term.
Did it occur to you that backpackers and working visa tourists may have been serving you your beer? This is another one of these things that you think you know the answer but then you haven't actually lived here for a very long time so you are wrong.

I don't know what fine 7-11 got over their case, but if the fine was leveraged at say $100k per employee single employment period + full back pay with interest for all employees, how many prosecutions do you think are required before its no longer a significant problem?
Seven-Eleven's legal team have been working hard to ensure that they get nothing more than a slap on the wrist; same with Caltex, they tried to hive the blame off to their (mostly Indian) franchisees for importing Indian students and then exploiting the buggery out of them. Plausible deniability... and the penalties really aren't that great if you get caught so why wouldn't you do it? Bruce Bilson, our former Small Business Minister under the Abbott government - went straight to work for the Franchise Council and he's also been making sure that any attempts to enforce minimum standards in retail have been scuttled in Parliament.
don_dunstan
Did it occur to you I was referring to the ones I know of and on holidays you often chat more with the barman/maid than say local pub especially when their ascent is different to local, especially if they have Oz/Kiwi.

Backpackers would be in a similar boat as students as Australia as a young travelers agreement with a number of countries where  people of certain age group from certain countries can work on a tourist visa and also prone to be exploited.

Don't give a crap what 7-11 or CALTEX have been doing.

Keep it simple and stop the circular argument and solve the problem for all workers. Pay less than the award or other recognized rate and pay $100k fine per employee + all back pay + interest at the personal loan rate as compensation + all court costs incurred by the regulator. Any follow up offense and the fine is double, third time loose your business license.

All too often we are too scared to do what other countries do to keep people and companies in line and make other weak excuses on why not or try and solve the problem by penalising others.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Don't give a crap what 7-11 or CALTEX have been doing.
RTT_Rules
Yeah, so why bring it up then? You started by saying "these people should be persecuted to the full extent of the law" and then upon realising that they routinely get away with it you respond by saying you don't care.

And just to add to the surreal nature of employment, industry and chasing jobs - the new incoming SA government has announced that they'll do "whatever it takes" to get Google to set up their corporate headquarters in Adelaide. Did they seriously not learn anything from John Olsen's wasted millions in getting "Austar" to set up in Adelaide twenty years ago? We're doomed if we're going to keep repeating these mistakes.
  Graham4405 Minister for Railways

Location: Dalby Qld
You started by saying "these people should be persecuted to the full extent of the law"
don_dunstan
I don't think persecution is generally considered to be lawful!
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
Unless a bank does it.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Don't give a crap what 7-11 or CALTEX have been doing.
Yeah, so why bring it up then? You started by saying "these people should be persecuted to the full extent of the law" and then upon realising that they routinely get away with it you respond by saying you don't care.

And just to add to the surreal nature of employment, industry and chasing jobs - the new incoming SA government has announced that they'll do "whatever it takes" to get Google to set up their corporate headquarters in Adelaide. Did they seriously not learn anything from John Olsen's wasted millions in getting "Austar" to set up in Adelaide twenty years ago? We're doomed if we're going to keep repeating these mistakes.
don_dunstan
You actually did!

My comment was to penalise, heavily any employer who underpays their staff such that its a very loud deterant for those thinking of doing the same in future. No I don't care about the individual details of either of those two organisations you quoted and the reason is because I care that they should be ALL be penalised and hard as I stated. I also said I don't distinguish any difference on nationality of the employee, which was your sole argument on why the students shouldn't work because some get ripped off and hence undermine employment options for Aussies.

You also stated Aussie students cannot work OS, again part of your argument why they shouldn't work here and this was incorrect. As demonstrated, most western countries offer reciprocal arrangements.

So eyes front, focus on what was said in response to your comment, no side tracking, this will save the circular arguments you talk about.    

All too often we have excuses for allowing individuals to break the law, yet the answer is simple. Give the courts and police the power to prosecute and implement penalties that hurt and the issue would resolve itself.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
You actually did!...

All too often we have excuses for allowing individuals to break the law, yet the answer is simple. Give the courts and police the power to prosecute and implement penalties that hurt and the issue would resolve itself.
RTT_Rules

Oops, sorry I attributed that to you. But in either case, Bruce Billson is going to make sure that nobody suffers too badly from being caught underpaying workers, workers that are bought in from overseas deliberately to exploit the buggery out of them. Nobody is policing the system in Australia, Shane, that's the point - because if anyone gets caught the penalties are meaningless.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
don_dunstan
Don,
How often have I stated on a number of topics that corporate and fines in Oz are usually a joke.

- Under paying workers
- Illegal sale of existing houses to foreign nationals. I stated on this one the fine should be 100% of the sale price of the property for buyer and agent. (I think someone here actually opposed this)

Make it hurt, problem mostly goes away, but no, pi$$ weak fines, but god help you if you drive 20km/h over the speed limit.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Don,
How often have I stated on a number of topics that corporate and fines in Oz are usually a joke.

- Under paying workers
- Illegal sale of existing houses to foreign nationals. I stated on this one the fine should be 100% of the sale price of the property for buyer and agent. (I think someone here actually opposed this)

Make it hurt, problem mostly goes away, but no, pi$$ weak fines, but god help you if you drive 20km/h over the speed limit.
RTT_Rules

I think we finally have a point of agreement here, Shane. I remember in the old days (late 90's) when the old DIMA (Immigration and Multicultural Affairs) used to regularly bust car washes around Melbourne for employing people on tourist visas and paying them next to nothing. They used to come down on these places like a ton of bricks and all the illegal workers were usually put straight on a plane and the car wash owners fined heavily.

But now it's spread to hospitality, retail - and where are the Border Force officers busting these places? It's never, ever policed any more - not unless you have a very high profile exposure of systemic abuse like 7/11, Caltex or Dominoes - and even then 7/11 managed to reduce their fines substantially because these big companies have the best legal teams that run rings around government enforcement of the law. It's a joke.
  locojoe67 Assistant Commissioner
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
Another Afterpay triumph:

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-advice/money/jetstars-big-change-to-how-you-book-international-flights/news-story/8eb30a51fd3d21d18c3b0bf4309472f1
locojoe67
The rapid rise of Afterpay has been phenomenal - just when you thought there was no way you could get Aussies into any more debt they find a way. And borrowing money for international holidays is especially stupid... if you default you'll be paying it off for years.
  locojoe67 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Gen X purgatory/urban Joh-land
Thats the (evil) genius of Afterpay. It doesn't require a default to lock people into debt. It only has to reinforce the earn and spend cycle.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Now we have just had Ford Australia and Telstra fined millions in a continuing demonstration that these fines are not detering anybody. Until we start putting CEO's and their henchmen in the slammer, big business will continue to go its own way with the bean counters presumably finding a way of making any fine just a business expense.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Seven-Eleven's legal team have been working hard to ensure that they get nothing more than a slap on the wrist; same with Caltex, they tried to hive the blame off to their (mostly Indian) franchisees for importing Indian students and then exploiting the buggery out of them.

This all pales into insignificance compared to the financial services rip-offs that most of us have been subject to, rather than a small group of immigrant workers.

However, as a former shareholder in Ampol I have a tiny share of Caltex Autralia, along with Exxon who have most of it.

It being that time of year I got the Caltex Annual Report, which somewhat to my surprise indicates that Caltex have gone into convenience shops in a big way, not only at service stations, but stand alone cafes and convenience stores. This is seen as the way ahead, presumably because selling petrol is seen as a declining business.

This would suggest that they are following 7-11's business model.

Peter
  davesvline Chief Commissioner

Location: 1983-1998
My great grandfather used to say- "when two fools meet. The one who makes the stupid offer, and the one who doesn't take it ".

In this case, plenty will be lining up for this holiday now, pay later scheme?
IIRC the last time the volcano upset the Bali airport, the news showed a single mum with 3 kids stuck in the airport and they couldn't afford to pay the extra for travel insurance, which more than likely would have covered them being accommodated somewhere other than the departure area.

I suspect this will simply add to more issues like this, where those on the fringe of affording a trip such as this, may well now opt to doing so?

Time will tell I suppose, but just because one can get a loan for something doesn't necessarily mean that one should.

But, each to their own. Want to be damn sure you read the fine print. Is it much different to 60 months interest free from a furniture shop??

Regards

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