In today's Sydney Morning Herald Elizabeth Farrelly denounces the effects of this tramway extension on the streetscape, landscape and road/pedestrian traffic.

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/the-new-light-rail-doesnt-deserve-to-be-called-public-transport-20160518-goxufp.html

Was there ever a case for creating this destructive dragon in Sydney's oldest city?

Was there ever a case for creating this destructive dragon in Sydney's oldest city?

pick a dragon. cars, trucks or buses. we can save the trees and parks but you will not be using the road for a long period until the works are done.

How the hell are you supposed to build anything without having some short term impact? and yes some longterm things may also need to change. People want to move forward, but refuse to allow change at the same time.

Baird is very much, "we are doing this", but all power to him. NSW the state on the move, building stuff, creating jobs,, improving the standards of moving around Sydney. Meanwhile nth of the border and other states....crickets.

But I'd personally prefer the ESR be finished instead of SSELR.

Baird is very much, "we are doing this", but all power to him. NSW the state on the move, building stuff, creating jobs,, improving the standards of moving around Sydney. Meanwhile nth of the border and other states....crickets.

It's the way they are going about it. They have managed to piss off just about every group who originally supported the CESLR project, mostly through poor execution.

The original project EIS had far less impact that what is currently being built, the modifications were out out for comment for a very short period of time just before Christmas and a number of the changes appear to have been done solely at the behest of developer interests, and no consideration of whole community interests.

And there are silly things - like building (the mass concrete track) tramway beside the current Moore Park busway instead of along the original tram alignment and sharing with the buses. If they are going to insist on mass concrete track, why not share it with the buses ?. But to make doubly sure, the area will be equipped with island platforms which the buses can not call at. And the Moore Park tram stop itself will be a large towering edifice, not a discrete tram halt in a park.

There is one spot on the Randwick branch where trams and buses will share the right of way. But the buses will NOT stop at the tram stop, they run through and pull over into a specially built off track bus stop 100m further up the line.

The whole project is full of silly little things like this.

It's almost as if the objective is to piss off as many people as possible so there are no calls for extensions, as all possible supporters will be so disheartened by the current process, they won't have the drive to agitate for extensions. (And watch it turn into a mess again).

Personally I approve of more tram lines... anything that makes Sydney a little more like Melbourne can only be a good thing for its citizens.

* Ducks the half bricks hurled at him from north of the border. *

I certainly wont argue that Trams provide a vital service and should run in areas not serviced by trains but 'connecting' with them at locations.
The only problem Sydney and its suburbs face is that the roads are woefully inadequate for both vehicles and Trams to run together due to the poor layout and narrowness of the streets being used.
I grew up at St Peters and often traveled into the City by Tram along King Street through Newtown and except for its own 'Right of Way' along side the University of NSW, it was a slow trip due to stopping and starting with the traffic back then in the 50's when cars were fewer.

While I only ever traveled between Melbourne's CBD and Malvern on the Tram in the brief time I was there, I dont think anywhere in Melbourne rivaled the twisting, weaving, up and down hills the Sydney Trams encounted from the City to Watsons Bay, down into Bondi Beach, out to La Perouse and around the inner suburbs.

In fact the ONLY line I can remember that ran flat and straight was on Bayswater road from Rockdale Station to Sans Souci/Botany Bay.

When two of the biggest events were on at the same time, The Sydney Royal Easter Show and the Randwick Races, of the THOUSANDS that attended either venue, most went by Trams packed near as tightly as those you see in some Asian Countries but they moved the masses when nothing else could.

Personally I approve of more tram lines... anything that makes Sydney a little more like Melbourne can only be a good thing for its citizens.

* Ducks the half bricks hurled at him from north of the border. *

Wish we had their rail network. Its much better than ours!!!

Michael

How the hell are you supposed to build anything without having some short term impact? and yes some longterm things may also need to change. People want to move forward, but refuse to allow change at the same time.

Baird is very much, "we are doing this", but all power to him. NSW the state on the move, building stuff, creating jobs,, improving the standards of moving around Sydney. Meanwhile nth of the border and other states....crickets.

But I'd personally prefer the ESR be finished instead of SSELR.

And Daniel Andrews here in Victoria is doing nothing?

Michael

How the hell are you supposed to build anything without having some short term impact? and yes some longterm things may also need to change. People want to move forward, but refuse to allow change at the same time.

Baird is very much, "we are doing this", but all power to him. NSW the state on the move, building stuff, creating jobs,, improving the standards of moving around Sydney. Meanwhile nth of the border and other states....crickets.

But I'd personally prefer the ESR be finished instead of SSELR.

And Daniel Andrews here in Victoria is doing nothing?

Michael

What has Daniel Andrews actually built. Plans are nice and all but until things are in the ground and being built he has done nothing.

Personally I approve of more tram lines... anything that makes Sydney a little more like Melbourne can only be a good thing for its citizens.

* Ducks the half bricks hurled at him from north of the border. *

Tram is an old term for an old system. We prefer Light Rail.

Not possible to make Sydney look like a flat turd.

How the hell are you supposed to build anything without having some short term impact? and yes some longterm things may also need to change. People want to move forward, but refuse to allow change at the same time.

Baird is very much, "we are doing this", but all power to him. NSW the state on the move, building stuff, creating jobs,, improving the standards of moving around Sydney. Meanwhile nth of the border and other states....crickets.

But I'd personally prefer the ESR be finished instead of SSELR.

And Daniel Andrews here in Victoria is doing nothing?

Michael

What has Daniel Andrews actually built. Plans are nice and all but until things are in the ground and being built he has done nothing.

There's certainly plenty of projects being built. The Government's only been in for 18ish months. These projects have lead times.

This affects any other Government. And projects only start kicking in proper, generally, in the second half of a given parliaments term.

Project time line for major industrial project

- 1-2 years to work out what you want and estimated budget, source of funding and select a Project Management Contractor to do a Pre-Feas study
- 1-1.5 years to bring in Project Management, ramp up, modify and adapt and produce a feasibility study, often sent back to reduce cost
- 1 year to do Front End Engineering & Design study and seek "Letter to Proceed" by client, add another 3-6mth for every time the client rejects on cost
- 6-12 mths to select major vendors and allow them to ramp up with detail design, Bulk earth works typically on the ground within 6mths.
- You cannot build much in less than 2yrs and $1B usually needs 3 years to spend, something longitudinal like a railway of this length 3 years would be minimum as there are alot of like parallel activities of which not everything can be done in parrellel due to limited skills, materials and Management.

Personally I approve of more tram lines... anything that makes Sydney a little more like Melbourne can only be a good thing for its citizens.

* Ducks the half bricks hurled at him from north of the border. *

Tram is an old term for an old system. We prefer Light Rail.

Not possible to make Sydney look like a flat turd.

Many years ago a very popular comedian of the day said that a 'Podium' was Potts Point (or where ever Malcolm Turnbull lives) for PLATFORM !!!
I view the term 'Light Rail' in the same vein as its an arty farty way of saying its a BLOODY TRAM !!!!

If it rattles, clatters, sways and lurches and is a block on the free flow of traffic, its a TRAM!!!
Look at Sydney though any type of coloured glasses and its easy to see its NOT a Tram friendly City even though the Tram is a fantastic people mover over the short distances you find in a City.
One thing I give Melbourne full credit to is they by either genius or sheer good luck, didnt get rid of their Trams when all those around them removed theirs and now their laughing as they benefit from having such a network.

Personally I approve of more tram lines... anything that makes Sydney a little more like Melbourne can only be a good thing for its citizens.

* Ducks the half bricks hurled at him from north of the border. *

Tram is an old term for an old system. We prefer Light Rail.

Not possible to make Sydney look like a flat turd.

No the Docklands Light Railway is Light Rail, what Sydney has is a TRAM!!!!

Michael

Personally I approve of more tram lines... anything that makes Sydney a little more like Melbourne can only be a good thing for its citizens.

* Ducks the half bricks hurled at him from north of the border. *

Tram is an old term for an old system. We prefer Light Rail.

Not possible to make Sydney look like a flat turd.

No the Docklands Light Railway is Light Rail, what Sydney has is a TRAM!!!!

Michael

How?

Melbourne really has to be thankful for Major General Sir Robert Joseph Henry Risson CB, CBE, DSO, ED.

It really comes down to that one man, doesn't it, otherwise the whole thing would probably never have survived. Risson was a lone voice of reason at a time when the whole concept of a tramway was seen as a historical anachronism that needed to be extinguished.

I would have to agree that Sydney's goat tracks were never really that well suited to the tramway whereas Melbourne's Hoddle grid was well-suited to retention of its tram system (Colonel Light's Adelaide too but unfortunately that wasn't to be). Risson had to contend with a Premier hostile to trams in the form of Henry Bolte but Melbourne's tram network was actually maintained to an extremely high standard and the MMTB managed to convince the government that it would actually be very expensive to try and remove and replace. Risson also dazzled the politicians of the day with all sorts of scientific facts and studies to prove that buses and private cars couldn't even come close to moving the same numbers of people as the existing tram system did - famously proving that the replacement bus and car traffic would ruin the amenity of St Kilda road at peak times.

Will Sydney's bold new experiment with trams work out - I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Personally I approve of more tram lines... anything that makes Sydney a little more like Melbourne can only be a good thing for its citizens.

* Ducks the half bricks hurled at him from north of the border. *

Tram is an old term for an old system. We prefer Light Rail.

Not possible to make Sydney look like a flat turd.

No the Docklands Light Railway is Light Rail, what Sydney has is a TRAM!!!!

Michael

How?

Sydney's system is 90% run on it's own right of way on an old freight alignment at the moment. How is that a tram system? Maybe the new CSELR is more tram like but even with that built the entire Sydney light rail network will still be over 50% in it's own right of way.

Docklands is a Tram system and it is part of the Melbourne tram network and runs in the streets like 95% of Melbourne's Tram network does.

Otherwise, just to mention Risson further, it is interesting how this one man was able to defend Melbourne's trams against the tide of aristocratic opinion (ie the ones who get to make the decisions). It is not as if the average Sydney-sider was beside themselves in excitement about living in a "modern" (tramless) city back in the 1950's. Far from it, but the opinion of those in power over-rode any consideration of what the proletariat thought.

I can't find specific articles on the internet about it but one of my books spells out the difficulty the NSW government under Cahill had in forcing the closure through. It was the usual story repeated in the other cities with the government getting in 'experts' who advised that trams were obstructing traffic but there were also many vocal and well-organised protests including the attempted closing of the Watsons Bay line which resulted in it being temporarily re-opened due to voracious opposition before eventually being forced through.

I do remember the Watsons Bay On/OFF/On then finally OFF even though I wasnt living in Sydney nor had any real interest whether the Trams ran or not but I felt that like so many high flying protests of the day, those who protested the loudest werent those needed to use it to keep it going, like every day passengers.

The eventual reality was the Trams had to go because they couldnt have existed as stand alone service without the backing of maintenance a network can provide.
I dont really remember much of an attitude of keeping things for 'Posterity' as is prevalent today with a number of preservation groups running tourist oriented services back then.

Sydney was in the throes of 'modernising' albeit slowly after the austerity of the War with more people looking to buy a home in the newly created suburbs and a motor car, so what use is an old and decaying Tram network that didnt reach where you lived when you have your own car and you can drive yourself everywhere??
Lack of support by the Government and the general public, the 'back of the mind' costs just to keep it running was always there and didnt help to continue the network either.
It took more than a few years for it to eventually sink in to the conciseness of the Masses of what had been thrown out and was gone forever with the exception of that saved by often considered slightly stupid conservationists had a place in our lifestyle after all and now of course is promoted to the fullest extent.

^^^
I have to ask, why is there so much "tribalism" over what Sydney and Melbourne have or not have?

I just get this undercurrent of feeling (I may be wrong) that somehow having one or the other is somehow supposed to make a speaker feel more sophisticated , well educated, intelligent and overall better looking than anyone else around. Is there something wrong with calling an electrically propelled rail bound vehicle that has been routed down nominal roads and streets a "tram"? Is it really anything particular to rebadge it as a "light rail vehicle"?

It seems to be beyond any form of friendly ribbing taken in good fun. You sometimes wonder about those issues usually seen overseas but becoming evident in this country where centuries old disputes continue to be fought over, but I can almost see similar arising with this petty so called "interstate rivalry". Oh well, I'll just go back to being a regular stick in the mud....

Otherwise, just to mention Risson further, it is interesting how this one man was able to defend Melbourne's trams against the tide of aristocratic opinion (ie the ones who get to make the decisions). It is not as if the average Sydney-sider was beside themselves in excitement about living in a "modern" (tramless) city back in the 1950's. Far from it, but the opinion of those in power over-rode any consideration of what the proletariat thought.

Those in power at the time would make the decisions for the future in the way they thought best, and the proletariat (rest of us) should be thankful that there are those in power who have such vision that is effectively beyond our comprehension....  quick anybody got a paper bag, I'm, gunna throw up in a minute....

Yes there is a problem because Sydney's current system is actually called Sydney light rail and not Sydney trams. When you speak about a Sydney tram you are talking about the old Sydney trams like what you can ride at the Sydney Tramway museum. The current system has modern vehicles and runs for 95% of it's journey on a reserved right of way and not on the streets like the trams in Melbourne.

I'm not sure where this interstate rivalry thing comes from because the only interstate rivalry that matters to us in Sydney is the state of origin battles with QLD. I have nothing against Melbournians and I enjoy my time there when I attend the Grand Prix. I especially love using your trams because your pathetic train system is useless.

Personally I approve of more tram lines... anything that makes Sydney a little more like Melbourne can only be a good thing for its citizens.

* Ducks the half bricks hurled at him from north of the border. *

Tram is an old term for an old system. We prefer Light Rail.

Not possible to make Sydney look like a flat turd.

No the Docklands Light Railway is Light Rail, what Sydney has is a TRAM!!!!

Michael

How?

Sydney's system is 90% run on it's own right of way on an old freight alignment at the moment. How is that a tram system? Maybe the new CSELR is more tram like but even with that built the entire Sydney light rail network will still be over 50% in it's own right of way.

Docklands is a Tram system and it is part of the Melbourne tram network and runs in the streets like 95% of Melbourne's Tram network does.

@ RTT_Rules, I was being facetious.

@ Simstrain I was referring to the Docklands Light Railway in London


Michael

^^^
I have to ask, why is there so much "tribalism" over what Sydney and Melbourne have or not have?

I just get this undercurrent of feeling (I may be wrong) that somehow having one or the other is somehow supposed to make a speaker feel more sophisticated , well educated, intelligent and overall better looking than anyone else around. Is there something wrong with calling an electrically propelled rail bound vehicle that has been routed down nominal roads and streets a "tram"? Is it really anything particular to rebadge it as a "light rail vehicle"?

It seems to be beyond any form of friendly ribbing taken in good fun. You sometimes wonder about those issues usually seen overseas but becoming evident in this country where centuries old disputes continue to be fought over, but I can almost see similar arising with this petty so called "interstate rivalry". Oh well, I'll just go back to being a regular stick in the mud....

Otherwise, just to mention Risson further, it is interesting how this one man was able to defend Melbourne's trams against the tide of aristocratic opinion (ie the ones who get to make the decisions). It is not as if the average Sydney-sider was beside themselves in excitement about living in a "modern" (tramless) city back in the 1950's. Far from it, but the opinion of those in power over-rode any consideration of what the proletariat thought.

Those in power at the time would make the decisions for the future in the way they thought best, and the proletariat (rest of us) should be thankful that there are those in power who have such vision that is effectively beyond our comprehension....  quick anybody got a paper bag, I'm, gunna throw up in a minute....

Yes there is a problem because Sydney's current system is actually called Sydney light rail and not Sydney trams. When you speak about a Sydney tram you are talking about the old Sydney trams like what you can ride at the Sydney Tramway museum. The current system has modern vehicles and runs for 95% of it's journey on a reserved right of way and not on the streets like the trams in Melbourne.

I'm not sure where this interstate rivalry thing comes from because the only interstate rivalry that matters to us in Sydney is the state of origin battles with QLD. I have nothing against Melbournians and I enjoy my time there when I attend the Grand Prix. I especially love using your trams because your pathetic train system is useless.

Yep you have got that right. Our Rail system is p..sweak.

Michael

If Sydney's train system was built the way bradfield wanted it then we wouldn't need the cselr. Heck if the esr was finished as it was supposed to be we wouldn't need anywhere near as many buses or even the new light rail.

Looking at the map for the SE extension and it is obvious that there will be a crossing on the level at George and Hay Streets in the CBD where the new line crosses the existing line.

I assume that there will be turnouts there so as to allow trams access to the maintenance facilities etc?

Testing of the first tram in George Street for 61 years commenced last evening.

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/a-fantastic-milestone-as-first-tram-in-60-years-rolls-along-george-street