Regauging Victoria's railways (!)

 
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Can anyone provide the exact measurements of the flange and tread on the BGv and SG in Victoria?
awsgc24
The V/Line wheels and NSW wheels are of different width - the Victorian ones are wider.

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  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
This sort of think would only work if the rollback could be done quickly and safely.  I doubt the achievement of either of these would be cost effective for the limited traffic that might be involved.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
The key point here is that converting between gauges differing by less than the width of the railhead is simply more complicated than converting between gauges differing by more than the width of standard rails. For example converting the Queensland railways from cape gauge to metre gauge would be more complicated than converting them to standard gauge. Cape gauge differs from metre gauge by less than the width of the railhead, while both differ from standard by more than the width of standard flat bottom rails, so three-rail dual gauge track is possible with standard rails, and leaves a wider gap than mixed Victorian and Standard gauge.
How complicated would conversion from Victorian to standard gauge be?
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollbock
The Rollbock system will only work if the two gauges are sufficiently different, and clear the flanges and treads of the upper and lower wagons.
.
Assume that the flanges are say 1" thick.
Assume that the treads are say 3" thick.
Then 2 flanges and 2 treads take up 2x1 + 2x3 = 8".
In Spain, the difference between BGs and SG is 9.5" which is greater than 8", so it seems to work.
In Victoria, the difference between BGv and SG is 6.5" which is less than 8", which seems to leave insufficient room for Rollbock to work.

Can anyone provide the exact measurements of the flange and tread on the BGv and SG in Victoria?
awsgc24
Why bother ................
Upon reading the Wiki article you will find this "This method enables the Rollbock wagons to traverse curves as sharp as 15 m (49.2 ft) radius and, when fully loaded, they could be moved over narrow gauge tracks at a safe speed of 13 mph or 21 km/h"
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Why bother ................  Upon reading the Wiki article you will find this "This method enables the Rollbock wagons to traverse curves as sharp as 15 m (49.2 ft) radius and, when fully loaded, they could be moved over narrow gauge tracks at a safe speed of 13 mph or 21 km/h"
Pressman
Yes, designed for gauges of between 600mm and metre gauge, mostly.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
True or false?
There would be a substantial gain in regauging Victoria's railways, both country services and Melbourne suburban, given conformity with interstate lines and those in New South Wales.

True or false?
Three-rail dual gauge track imposing a speed restriction and requiring narrow footed rails would complicate the conversion process.

True or false?
Regauging all these lines would mean shutting down nearly all of them for an extended period of time while the conversion is done, adding to the cost of equipment, such as buses, to provide the replacement service.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
True or false?
There would be a substantial gain in regauging Victoria's railways, both country services and Melbourne suburban, given conformity with interstate lines and those in New South Wales.

True or false?
Three-rail dual gauge track imposing a speed restriction and requiring narrow footed rails would complicate the conversion process.

True or false?
Regauging all these lines would mean shutting down nearly all of them for an extended period of time while the conversion is done, adding to the cost of equipment, such as buses, to provide the replacement service.
Myrtone

1. Depends.  Some lines yes, others no.  Country network where there is freight and low disruption costs its probably a yes.  The Metro, probably no, as the disruption cost would be huge.

2. True

3. True.

These are seemingly obvious answers though.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
True or false?
There would be a substantial gain in regauging Victoria's railways, both country services and Melbourne suburban, given conformity with interstate lines and those in New South Wales.

True or false?
Three-rail dual gauge track imposing a speed restriction and requiring narrow footed rails would complicate the conversion process.

True or false?
Regauging all these lines would mean shutting down nearly all of them for an extended period of time while the conversion is done, adding to the cost of equipment, such as buses, to provide the replacement service.

1. Depends.  Some lines yes, others no.  Country network where there is freight and low disruption costs its probably a yes.  The Metro, probably no, as the disruption cost would be huge.

2. True

3. True.

These are seemingly obvious answers though.
james.au
I'd have answered as False/True/True

The major drawbacks in conversion is the Disruption costs.
On the freight side, business will not wait during closures, they will seek alternatives, and once freight is lost to rail, getting it back is even harder.

On the passenger side the same applies, people will find alternative transport and gaining them back to rail will not be easy.
(An example of this is the closure of Trans Adelaide's Noarlunga line for electrification. Even with the opening of the Seaford extension, passenger numbers on the line took well over 12 months to return back to pre closure numbers)
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
True or false?
There would be a substantial gain in regauging Victoria's railways, both country services and Melbourne suburban, given conformity with interstate lines and those in New South Wales.

True or false?
Three-rail dual gauge track imposing a speed restriction and requiring narrow footed rails would complicate the conversion process.

True or false?
Regauging all these lines would mean shutting down nearly all of them for an extended period of time while the conversion is done, adding to the cost of equipment, such as buses, to provide the replacement service.

1. Depends.  Some lines yes, others no.  Country network where there is freight and low disruption costs its probably a yes.  The Metro, probably no, as the disruption cost would be huge.

2. True

3. True.

These are seemingly obvious answers though.
I'd have answered as False/True/True

The major drawbacks in conversion is the Disruption costs.
On the freight side, business will not wait during closures, they will seek alternatives, and once freight is lost to rail, getting it back is even harder.

On the passenger side the same applies, people will find alternative transport and gaining them back to rail will not be easy.
(An example of this is the closure of Trans Adelaide's Noarlunga line for electrification. Even with the opening of the Seaford extension, passenger numbers on the line took well over 12 months to return back to pre closure numbers)
Pressman
Id say freight will come back after conversion if its disruption can be minimised.  Its been elsewhere mentioned that Mildura freight will load on one of the other BG lines temporarily whilst the Mildura line itself is standardised.  When the SG is available, it will go back on there no problems.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Unless the resumed rail can provide a stunning service it may well turn into an expensive white elephant having proved during the shutdown:

  • That it was not needed in the first place.
and
  • Having provided base load traffic for the opposition to build on.
  Camster Chief Commissioner

Location: Geelong
This would have been pointed out, but the time to regauge was during the regional fast rail project. In fact, I come across some commuters assumed the track was being converted then. 4 major lines were practically rebuilt then, so I'd say regauging will most likely never happen now.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
I'd have answered as False/True/True
Pressman
Okay so we share land borders with both New South Wales and South Australia. Railways in New South Wales have always been standard gauge, and the railway between Melbourne and Adelaide was converted to standard gauge quite recently.
Regauging Victoria's railways would make way for more extensive track sharing with interstate trains.

The major drawbacks in conversion is the Disruption costs.
On the freight side, business will not wait during closures, they will seek alternatives, and once freight is lost to rail, getting it back is even harder.

On the passenger side the same applies, people will find alternative transport and gaining them back to rail will not be easy.
(An example of this is the closure of Trans Adelaide's Noarlunga line for electrification. Even with the opening of the Seaford extension, passenger numbers on the line took well over 12 months to return back to pre closure numbers)
Pressman
So you are admitting that the main problem is indeed the disruption, not the money spent.

This would have been pointed out, but the time to regauge was during the regional fast rail project. In fact, I come across some commuters assumed the track was being converted then. 4 major lines were practically rebuilt then, so I'd say regauging will most likely never happen now.
Camster
But these VLocites had to, and still do, share some tracks with our suburban trains, sometimes at speeds higher than (three rail) dual gauge track allows. Think of the Craigiburn, Sunbury and Pakenham lines.
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me


The major drawbacks in conversion is the Disruption costs.
On the freight side, business will not wait during closures, they will seek alternatives, and once freight is lost to rail, getting it back is even harder.

On the passenger side the same applies, people will find alternative transport and gaining them back to rail will not be easy.
(An example of this is the closure of Trans Adelaide's Noarlunga line for electrification. Even with the opening of the Seaford extension, passenger numbers on the line took well over 12 months to return back to pre closure numbers)

So you are admitting that the main problem is indeed the disruption, not the money spent.
Myrtone
NO
I deliberately avoided making any comment on costs!

I made a statement about the affects of service disruption (and gave an example)
I did not admit anything


When will you learn to stop construing other peoples comments to suit your ideas?
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Can I ask why we seem to be having a conversation that seems to be going in the same circles???

@Myrtone, Id recommend downloading and reading the Murray Basin Project business case and reading it - it should give you a really good handle on the issues around converting regional lines (esp for freight purposes).
  Camster Chief Commissioner

Location: Geelong
But these VLocites had to, and still do, share some tracks with our suburban trains, sometimes at speeds higher than (three rail) dual gauge track allows. Think of the Craigiburn, Sunbury and Pakenham lines.
Myrtone
So your point puts a further dampener on converting the network.

Probably looking at it that way, the Regional Fast Rail, and then the Regional Rail Link, if they were done together, would have been a chance for a few lines to be converted. Admittedly, I forgot Seymour, but then again, there is a standard gauge line there anyway, but not very direct. Ideally, Traralgon would have had to have a third track in standard gauge alongside it from Southern X to Pakenham.
  Camster Chief Commissioner

Location: Geelong
One thing I also forgot was that Geelong (Waurn Ponds) could be done with a small branch off the standard gauge line from North Geelong to Waurn Ponds. But again, this would not be practical.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
Probably looking at it that way, the Regional Fast Rail, and then the Regional Rail Link, if they were done together, would have been a chance for a few lines to be converted. Admittedly, I forgot Seymour, but then again, there is a standard gauge line there anyway, but not very direct. Ideally, Traralgon would have had to have a third track in standard gauge alongside it from Southern X to Pakenham.
Camster
But wait, not all regional fast rail routes use the Regional rail link. I think one of the ones that does is one serving Bendigo, sharing tracks with suburban trains to and from Sunbury. Sharing tracks with suburban trains basically means it has to be broad gauge. While I have seen some dual gauge track in Melbourne, particularly out west, none of it is under wires.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
You seem to overlook the word "fast" in Regional Fast Rail.  Dual gauge track is speed limited.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

You seem to overlook the word "fast" in Regional Fast Rail.  Dual gauge track is speed limited.
"Lad_Porter"


Only the BG, the SG line has normal speed limits.
  Myrtone Chief Commissioner

Location: North Carlton, Melbourne, Victoria
If Broad gauge tracks must be limited to 80km/h on track shared with standard gauge trains, might standard gauge trains also be subject to the same speed restrictions on those tracks. Think of a standard gauge train following a broad gauge one.
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

You seem to overlook the word "fast" in Regional Fast Rail.  Dual gauge track is speed limited.


Only the BG, the SG line has normal speed limits.
woodford
Yes, but the BG hosts the trains which run "fast".
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Interesting you pull this one out of thin air! The highest voltage DC system in use is 3kV DC which requires substations at a maximum of 7.5kms apart.

25kV AC is the Internationally accepted standard for High Voltage Overhead these days
There are a small number of 2x25kV = 50kV systems, in US and South Africa.

Many 25VAC systems are actually 25kV-OV-25kV with a return wire that keeps traction return current out of the earth.

Circuit breakers for 30kVDC would be a problem. AC CB are more reliable.

Insulating the wires in 30kVDC traction motors would also be problematic.

Holland is proposing to upgrade from 1.5kVDC to 3kVDC :
* much existing insulation would be capable to handle double the voltage, due to engineering "over-specification".
* uses same electrolysis protection.
* immunisation for AC telephone cable induction must be started from scratch.
* Next door Belgium is already 3kV DC. 3kV is of course double 1.5kV.
* doubles the traction substation interval, or doubles the available power.
* Holland doesn't seem to have heavy freight on steep grades, such as NSW Blue mountains (1 in 33).
  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Wow, a reply to a 13 month old post!
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Wow, a reply to a 13 month old post!
Pressman

But by no means anywhere near the 6 year record.

M.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
Wow, a reply to a 13 month old post!

But by no means anywhere near the 6 year record.

M.
The Vinelander
Wasn't there recently a reply to thread that was last active in 2004?

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