V-Set replacement contract announced

 
  jcouch Assistant Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a commuter train
The V-set replacements are due in 3-5 years, by the time the trains are fully rolled out the need for free WIFI will be mostly behind us as data packages will be too cheap to bother.
RTT_Rules
While I agree with the sentiment, for me it isn't the data amounts that is the problem, it is the reliable service. Sydney trains would guarantee (?) reliable connection along any corridor, whereas commercial 3G is notoriously unreliable with frequent blackspots - which even seem to vary by time of day, let alone provider.

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  johnboy Chief Commissioner

Location: Up the road from Gulgong
The V-set replacements are due in 3-5 years, by the time the trains are fully rolled out the need for free WIFI will be mostly behind us as data packages will be too cheap to bother.
While I agree with the sentiment, for me it isn't the data amounts that is the problem, it is the reliable service. Sydney trains would guarantee (?) reliable connection along any corridor, whereas commercial 3G is notoriously unreliable with frequent blackspots - which even seem to vary by time of day, let alone provider.
jcouch
Sydney Trains have approx 99% covered with their own system at the moment, which includes tunnels using leaky and direction antenna array systems.

But since wifi is no longer on their scope, it is no longer an issue.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
The V-set replacements are due in 3-5 years, by the time the trains are fully rolled out the need for free WIFI will be mostly behind us as data packages will be too cheap to bother.
While I agree with the sentiment, for me it isn't the data amounts that is the problem, it is the reliable service. Sydney trains would guarantee (?) reliable connection along any corridor, whereas commercial 3G is notoriously unreliable with frequent blackspots - which even seem to vary by time of day, let alone provider.
jcouch
3G!, we are now in a 4G world, by the time the new trains arrive we will be 5G or moving to 6G.

The blackspots along the railway through the mountains and other interurban corridors is going to be hit and miss nearly the whole way outside the Sydney Metro area. Personally I don't feel they need to provide a reliable service as they are not in the business of telecommunications. Sydney Trains may have spent alot for their own needs, but how much is required to provide WIFI access to 1000 people per train running at 30-60min intervals on corridors that could drop out every 100m or so? To me it just doesn't stack up especially when the need to provide free WIFI is dying requirement?
  jcouch Assistant Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a commuter train
Just some other links to it in case people didn't look beyond the original article in the SMH

Media Release:

http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/media-releases/comfort-comes-first-new-intercity-trains

Which contains a link to this Dropbox location (rather interesting in and of itself that a gov media release would do this rather than host them directly on their own site)

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/00g6u6omy0wfj1h/AABObFeFwiIPQzGv00QV6U1Za?dl=0

Also a big pile of info about the proposed maintenance facility here:

http://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projects-intercity-fleet/maintenance-facility
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

Yuk. More Oscars....

What exactly have they come up with? These things are already in service and some of them are already doing the Central to Springwood route and much of it doing the Illawarra. Is Orange and Grey seating and a token tray table intended to make us think that the Oscars are an improvement on the V set? Sure, the toilet is more spacious, and there is a section for wheelchair access, but it is a long way from the comfort of a Vset.

Have these people ever been in an Oscar? When the train is switching tracks, the entire carriage twitches and has a violent sideward movement. It is also quite noisy. By comparison, you can't feel when the Vset is changing tracks. It was clearly designed with the purpose of carrying pax over long distances.

The state govt needs to consider how to grow rail travel and pax numbers rather than to off load the cheapest load of rubbish onto the paying public. Oscars are not going to capture the commuter's imagination. They will just reach for their car keys.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Yuk. More Oscars....

What exactly have they come up with? These things are already in service and some of them are already doing the Central to Springwood route and much of it doing the Illawarra. Is Orange and Grey seating and a token tray table intended to make us think that the Oscars are an improvement on the V set? Sure, the toilet is more spacious, and there is a section for wheelchair access, but it is a long way from the comfort of a Vset.

Have these people ever been in an Oscar? When the train is switching tracks, the entire carriage twitches and has a violent sideward movement. It is also quite noisy. By comparison, you can't feel when the Vset is changing tracks. It was clearly designed with the purpose of carrying pax over long distances.

The state govt needs to consider how to grow rail travel and pax numbers rather than to off load the cheapest load of rubbish onto the paying public. Oscars are not going to capture the commuter's imagination. They will just reach for their car keys.
ANR
Even if its based upon the oscar train, the internal layout will be different.  When billionaires order a private 737 jet, it doesn't come with 170 economy seats.  The plane is the same, but the internal layout isn't.
From a technical perspective, the OScar is a very good train.  Fully capable of service speeds of 160, and it runs in service up to 130.
The only downsides are with regards to internal layout, which are easily fixed.
  Jim K Train Controller

Location: Well west of the Great Divide in NSW but not as far as South Australia
Even if its based upon the oscar train, the internal layout will be different.  When billionaires order a private 737 jet, it doesn't come with 170 economy seats.  The plane is the same, but the internal layout isn't.
From a technical perspective, the OScar is a very good train.  Fully capable of service speeds of 160, and it runs in service up to 130.
The only downsides are with regards to internal layout, which are easily fixed.
tazzer96
... and can't travel west of Springwood
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Even if its based upon the oscar train, the internal layout will be different.  When billionaires order a private 737 jet, it doesn't come with 170 economy seats.  The plane is the same, but the internal layout isn't.
From a technical perspective, the OScar is a very good train.  Fully capable of service speeds of 160, and it runs in service up to 130.
The only downsides are with regards to internal layout, which are easily fixed.
... and can't travel west of Springwood
Jim K
I think that was a necessary sacrifice to get the 5 across seating so it could run the central coast via north shore services.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

Even if its based upon the oscar train, the internal layout will be different.  When billionaires order a private 737 jet, it doesn't come with 170 economy seats.  The plane is the same, but the internal layout isn't.
From a technical perspective, the OScar is a very good train.  Fully capable of service speeds of 160, and it runs in service up to 130.
The only downsides are with regards to internal layout, which are easily fixed.
... and can't travel west of Springwood
Jim K
... isn't allowed to run west of Springwood.
  thopkins Station Staff

I have never understood sydneysiders demand for reversible seating.  Yes, the reversible seating is nice, but i would much rather a well built comfortable seat.  On reversible seats (the flip variant, not the spin around), many other factors like leg room, weight, and fabric have to be sacrificed to allow for the reversibility.

Sitting backwards isn't the end of the world, people do it for 3 hours an ICE or IMU100 from gympie to brisbane. (granted, the ICE is the most comfortable train in australia)

Fixed seats would allow for much greater comfort and durability.
tazzer96
Why do we have to accept going backwards. Sydney People prefer reversible seats. There are people who feel sick if they travel facing against the direction of travel. And what was the great complaint with the Tangaras? Victorians might like to face backwards, but we Welshmen like to look forward!
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Most of rest of the world seems to manage and with a cost recovery around 20% how far do we go to pander to the whims of a small minority?
  thopkins Station Staff

Are you sure? Apart from no disabled toilets some of the cars have spaces for wheelchairs.
GeoffreyHansen
Motorised Disabled carts have to park in the vestibule. Not a very fair treatment for this day and age.
  thopkins Station Staff

Reversible seats? They are a must. Like other posters here, I could care less what they do in Europe or elsewhere.

All that you need is some kind of misfit to be facing you for much of the journey and you quickly find yourself looking for a seat in the next carriage.

As for the V-set itself, nothing running anywhere for the same distances come close in comfort. Not even its touted successors that are now running suburban routes. There is a reason that the V set is still around.
ANR
I've just returned from Victoria and spent some time on the Vlocity trains. Nice trains and nejoyed the fact that Victorian lines are straight and speed restrictions were few. However, travelling from Lithgow to Sydney I would prefer a V-Set seat that faces the direction of travel and are still comfortable after 3-hours of travel. I noticed on the Vlocity the forward facing seats all filled first.
  thopkins Station Staff

Modern trains with unobstructed walk through access from car to car are quieter than the days of old and hence the need for a door to stop the noise and draft is eliminated. No door, one less thing to break and easier for DAA.

Underfloor heating is not required, the trains will be A/C'ed and sound insulated which also help with thermal as well.

Fixed seating takes up less space, less engineering and is alot lighter, that's why planes, buses and cars use it, not because they are afraid to have people sitting backwards.  (Also the airline Hostie cannot do the safety brief if you are facing the wrong way) The XPT staff have to flip the seats, QR turns the whole train, which one is faster for the railway and easier on the staff? However the XPT termini are devoid of whole train turning facilities as the trains were fitted with rotating seats long ago and now limits the design going forward.

Fixed seating doesn't mean some drongo looking at you. As the usually only the centre seats are facing or similar location which happens in a number of seats on the V-sets anyway. Typically you have have facing one way towards the centre and the other half facing back towards the centre. With high head rests most people cannot see past their seat in the seated position.

While non-fixed seating has obvious benefits including the social groups playing cards etc, it comes at a cost and including comfort. Having done commuting on both types of train, I really don't see it as a big issue for most people who are usually asleep anyway.  

Fold down tables, yes i agree on the vandal side of things, but I guess how they are built that matters.

Wi-Fi, with time I think the demand for WI-Fi will fade as now data packages are both huge and cheap and only becoming larger and cheaper with time. I have 6GB/mth, started with 3GB/Mth contract 12mths ago (min available on 2yr plan) but provider increases every so often despite my contract not expired, meanwhile I have still to exceed 2.5GB in any month and I use my phone for work emails, social media and traffic (WAZE) and the odd Youtube videos. If people use that much data, then a public access WIFI which is usually slow is probably not going to cut it. Regardless 60min on a train disconnected from the world won't kill most of us and probably do some good.
RTT_Rules
Um, never seen a plane or a bus heading in reverse for the main direction of travel. What a stupid argument!
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
Most of rest of the world seems to manage and with a coat recovery around 20% how far do we go to pander to the whims of a small minority?
RTT_Rules
Homonids intuitively like to proceed through life in a forward-facing direction and have certain behaviours that demonstrate this, like rushing forward-facing seats when they board an empty vehicle.

Homonids are also quite patient and will accept facing backwards temporarily out of tolerance for some noob who doesn't know how to design a vehicle or who rates weight and money as being more important than user comfort.

Fortunately there is a small minority of oddballs who don't mind facing backwards. They don't seem to breed prolifically probably because they get heavily expended serving in the rear guard of retreating armies.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
I think you'll find that's a habit of the regional sub-species Homo Sapiens Sydneyensi, not the wider species. Other humans seem to get along with backwards-facing seats just fine, thank you very much.
  Jim K Train Controller

Location: Well west of the Great Divide in NSW but not as far as South Australia
The current Sydney bus fleet of Mercedes have 4 or 6 seats facing 'backwards', as does the light rail. Seating was designed that way to fit more people in.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Um, never seen a plane or a bus heading in reverse for the main direction of travel. What a stupid argument!
thopkins
I've already replied to some of these ridiculous comparisons. But one for time for the........

Trains are bi-directional, planes are not.
If for one minute Boeing or Airbus could fine a way to pack in more passengers going backwards they one in a heart beat. Meanwhile because all seats face the same direction, the seat spacing is tighter.

Bus,
Same again. The bus is like a plane mono-directional and the seat spacing is generally closer if all the seats pay the direction.

Hence on the train, the seats are both lighter and closer together if the seating is fixed direction, but trains are bi-directional so they install them 50:50.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Electric trains are the one mode of transport where weight doesn't really matter and in fact provides extra traction for the steel wheels. There is only 8 tonnes difference between a T set and an A set. I highly doubt that reversible seating makes up that difference.

In Sydney we like these seats and the government should put this seating in.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

Even if its based upon the oscar train, the internal layout will be different.  When billionaires order a private 737 jet, it doesn't come with 170 economy seats.  The plane is the same, but the internal layout isn't.
From a technical perspective, the OScar is a very good train.  Fully capable of service speeds of 160, and it runs in service up to 130.
The only downsides are with regards to internal layout, which are easily fixed.
... and can't travel west of Springwood
Jim K
My understanding is that the trains will be slightly narrower than the OSCARs to fit within the loading gauge west of Springwood (like the V sets).  It shouldn't be assumed that it will be an internally modified design within the existing OSCAR body shell.  Although it may look like an OSCAR, I suspect that it will be a completely different train.
  Transtopic Assistant Commissioner

Electric trains are the one mode of transport where weight doesn't really matter and in fact provides extra traction for the steel wheels. There is only 8 tonnes difference between a T set and an A set. I highly doubt that reversible seating makes up that difference.

In Sydney we like these seats and the government should put this seating in.
simstrain
Agree.  Like I said, give the customer what they want or suffer the consequences.  Bugger what happens overseas.  There is no point in installing fold down tables in a commuter train without any meal service.  Long distance regional trains such as the XPT and Explorer are a different matter.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Agree.  Like I said, give the customer what they want or suffer the consequences.  Bugger what happens overseas.  There is no point in installing fold down tables in a commuter train without any meal service.  Long distance regional trains such as the XPT and Explorer are a different matter.

Transtopic
Books, Laptops and other electronic devices.
The tray tables still get heavily used the ICE's to gympie and nambour, everyone who gets on and off at caboolture loves using them.

The fixed seats offer so much more flexibility than the fixed seats.  It means they can be more than 2 charging socket per row, the tray tables, better graffiti and vandalism resistance.  It goes on.

Literally everywhere else in the world can do it, why does sydney need to be special.   Tangara's and C sets are different because they made the seating fixed but it didn't offer anything in return for the customer.  They took away a feature but didn't add any more.
The new seats will be adding far more than the removal of the reversible seating will take away.
  thopkins Station Staff

Agree.  Like I said, give the customer what they want or suffer the consequences.  Bugger what happens overseas.  There is no point in installing fold down tables in a commuter train without any meal service.  Long distance regional trains such as the XPT and Explorer are a different matter.

Books, Laptops and other electronic devices.
The tray tables still get heavily used the ICE's to gympie and nambour, everyone who gets on and off at caboolture loves using them.

The fixed seats offer so much more flexibility than the fixed seats.  It means they can be more than 2 charging socket per row, the tray tables, better graffiti and vandalism resistance.  It goes on.

Literally everywhere else in the world can do it, why does sydney need to be special.   Tangara's and C sets are different because they made the seating fixed but it didn't offer anything in return for the customer.  They took away a feature but didn't add any more.
The new seats will be adding far more than the removal of the reversible seating will take away.
tazzer96
When I have travelled in Germany on the ICE trains and France on the Euro, seats were facing the direction of travel. They were comfortable, usb provided and had tray tables. I'm not sure why you have such a problem with what is considered to be the best in the world? The argument that the best systems have fixed seating isn't correct. Visit http://www.seat61.com where you can check out seating diagrams for trains around the world.

I would argue that the fixed seating option is pushed by organisations seeking second best.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Electric trains are the one mode of transport where weight doesn't really matter and in fact provides extra traction for the steel wheels. There is only 8 tonnes difference between a T set and an A set. I highly doubt that reversible seating makes up that difference.

In Sydney we like these seats and the government should put this seating in.
simstrain
Tell me how many teachers or police will not have a job because of the money to pander to these whims is locked up in train seating?
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Agree.  Like I said, give the customer what they want or suffer the consequences.  Bugger what happens overseas.  There is no point in installing fold down tables in a commuter train without any meal service.  Long distance regional trains such as the XPT and Explorer are a different matter.

Books, Laptops and other electronic devices.
The tray tables still get heavily used the ICE's to gympie and nambour, everyone who gets on and off at caboolture loves using them.

The fixed seats offer so much more flexibility than the fixed seats.  It means they can be more than 2 charging socket per row, the tray tables, better graffiti and vandalism resistance.  It goes on.

Literally everywhere else in the world can do it, why does sydney need to be special.   Tangara's and C sets are different because they made the seating fixed but it didn't offer anything in return for the customer.  They took away a feature but didn't add any more.
The new seats will be adding far more than the removal of the reversible seating will take away.
When I have travelled in Germany on the ICE trains and France on the Euro, seats were facing the direction of travel. They were comfortable, usb provided and had tray tables. I'm not sure why you have such a problem with what is considered to be the best in the world? The argument that the best systems have fixed seating isn't correct. Visit http://www.seat61.com where you can check out seating diagrams for trains around the world.

I would argue that the fixed seating option is pushed by organisations seeking second best.


thopkins
Like for like people.

The "problem" is both ICE and TGV are long haul booked seating trains, not commuter.

Mmmm, what does this look like in these pictures of an ICE...

http://www.seat61.com/Germany-trains.htm#What are German trains like

No we don't want 2nd best, we just don't want to waste money on Gold Plating a barely medium haul commuter train.

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