V-Set replacement contract announced

 
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

The design has not been completed. Railconnet press statement stated:
"The passenger cars will be designed, manufactured, tested and commissioned by Hyundai Rotem, with Mitsubishi Electric Australia as technology provider and UGL supporting design and testing of their fleet."
The current pictures on NSW Government website is an 'artist impression' only. One is making assumptions that it will be a downsized OSCar, however that designed is not owned by Railconnect.  Fixed seating are the norm on most trains of this type around the world.
Jim K

And this assumed TfNSW commissioned an artist to create those impressions.  I think that way too unlikely as they have way too much correctly matching an OSCAR.

I think it's far more likely the images were created as part of the UGL bid, and the UGL bid would seem to be an extension of the OSCAR order, with the major manufacturing elements outsourced offshore.  

If you think about it, it's the only design they could use if they want these trains to service all NSWTrain's current electrified routes.  they can no more use another design than run V Sets on the ESR.

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  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

Just because it externally looks like an Oscar, doesn't mean the specifications are the same as an oscar.
They could build an entirely new train from scratch if these pleased, as long as it meets all the design criteria and loading gauge requirements.

It won't be the same as an OSCAR because they are too wide to go into the blue mountains.  
The reason the V sets don't go into the underground is because they are too long,  they don't fit into the stations.  V sets are alot longer but narrower than their OScar counterparts.
  don_dunstan Minister for Railways

Location: Adelaide proud
What is wrong with our governments!
These trains and any other new projects should be built here in Australia even if the cost is as high as double that of offshore.
Not only does it create jobs for the actual construction, it also creates growth and business for the associated industries such as steel and electrical.
The companies and people employed in all these jobs will be earning an income and therefore paying tax, as well as additional GST that is generated from their spending. People with income can then afford to purchase houses and luxury items again generating more stamp duty and GST for the government.
Showtime
Nobody thinks like that anymore - especially not the NSW government. It's too expensive to build things here and frankly the last few train orders being built off-shore means that we have lost the skills to build trains here now anyway.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
If the SMH illustrations are to be believed, they are (presumably narrower) Oscars with fixed seating on both decks, facing except for the central half bay in the two deck section. All the illustrations show cars of Millennium/Waratah/Oscar length.

Since Oscars already run to Hamilton and Kiama, presumably Northern and Illawarra passengers will be able to apply pressure for the older trains with more and reversible seats, while Western patrons are stuck with the new sets due to tunnel clearances.

If you have the choice of running otherwise similar trains with 2+2 or 2+3 searting at peak times, which will you run?

M636C
M636C
That suggestion could only come from somebody who's never travelled in an Oscar long-distance.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

If the SMH illustrations are to be believed, they are (presumably narrower) Oscars with fixed seating on both decks, facing except for the central half bay in the two deck section. All the illustrations show cars of Millennium/Waratah/Oscar length.

Since Oscars already run to Hamilton and Kiama, presumably Northern and Illawarra passengers will be able to apply pressure for the older trains with more and reversible seats, while Western patrons are stuck with the new sets due to tunnel clearances.

If you have the choice of running otherwise similar trains with 2+2 or 2+3 searting at peak times, which will you run?

M636C
That suggestion could only come from somebody who's never travelled in an Oscar long-distance.
tonyp

Instead of running 8 x 24 metre cars they could run 10 x 20 metre cars to make up that issue. Agree on the uncomfortable Oscar seating but my way around that is to use a home made cushion.
  LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

Location: North Haverbrook; where the monorail is king!
What is wrong with our governments!
These trains and any other new projects should be built here in Australia even if the cost is as high as double that of offshore.
Not only does it create jobs for the actual construction, it also creates growth and business for the associated industries such as steel and electrical.
The companies and people employed in all these jobs will be earning an income and therefore paying tax, as well as additional GST that is generated from their spending. People with income can then afford to purchase houses and luxury items again generating more stamp duty and GST for the government.
Nobody thinks like that anymore - especially not the NSW government. It's too expensive to build things here and frankly the last few train orders being built off-shore means that we have lost the skills to build trains here now anyway.
don_dunstan
I'm dismayed to see such a fairly large order (500 cars) being done overseas, given the willingness of most of the major rollingstock vendors to build domestically (with the right incentives).

But that's not the whole story - there will be quite a few Australian jobs created by this contract, just like with the preceding Waratahs. The NIF maintenance contract is supposedly 200 jobs, which will last throughout the life of the fleet (30+ years). Maintenance is to be done in a new facility in Tuggerah (NSW Central Coast).

A significant design component will be done in Australia too, which also creates a few high-quality technical jobs too. So it's a bit like what Ford/Toyota/GMH are doing with their cars once the Australian factories are closed next year. Design here, build elsewhere.
  gordon_s1942 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Tablelands of NSW
I doubt it has ever been high on the agenda when designing Suburban Cars that other than the bare necessities in creature comfort are provided.
I am sure there is a computer model somewhere that shows that an 'average passenger' is of a set physical size occupying a specific space and only travels XXX.XXX distance and only needs minimal  comforts.
That they have designed Trains too long for some stations or too wide to cover the whole network supports my belief.
I tend to think they put more effort into creating aerodynamic lines and a funky colour scheme way ahead of anything else.

Past blunders have been suburban cars whose electrical systems were totally incompatible with existing stock, couplers that also were different and nothing was done to make something suitable to use until one day when they went to haul a failed train away and couldnt.
  meh Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
A few points I'd like to make:

  • There were apparently three finalists, a Swiss Company (Stadler), a Downer EDI consortium and the UGL Consortium. Only Stadler proposed to build them here in a new factory to be built near Wollongong (i.e. non of the aussie companies were going to build them here). Presumably Downer would have utilised their relationship with CRC as per the Waratahs.
  • Hyundai Rotem seems to be very well established in delivery rollingstock for many railways in many countries including the USA and Canada. I believe one requirement was for a fairly quick turnaround for delivery so an existing factory with proven capability will win out over having to build a factory and train a workforce here.
  • Labor complaining about this decision is an utter hypocrisy; they did exactly the same thing with the Waratah contract. Luke Foley is the muppet of all muppets by trying to smear the government about this decision without acknowledging his own party did the same thing.
  • Most of all, lets be thankful that they are actually building the damn things and increasing the capacity of the network, which at the end of the day is what is desperately needed. It wont solve all the problems is a step in the right direction. At the end of the day I'd rather a train built in Korea, or China, or India or Antarctica arrive at the station rather than none at all.

Anyway let's not let sense and rational thinking get in the way of having a whinge.
  jibbonpoint Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
Sure meh. What you are saying is correct. And undoubtedly it's expedient to manufacture these units overseas. But if we want to have a manufacturing industry in Australia as we have the training and the wherewithal to have, then it's not right that they be manufactured overseas.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

The only reason the trains aren't being built in Aus is because the government doesn't want them built here.

The government could have easily specified in the tender that 90% of the work had to be done within australia.  They could have easily specified that they must be built here unless they could do it elsewhere for 50% less.
  johnboy Chief Commissioner

Location: Up the road from Gulgong
Firstly, The trains are already designed, they are NOT an Australian design, they are "off the shelve" from a Sth Korean design. This was made clear in State Parliament as pointed out by the Local Member for Blue Mountains.


In answer to the seats:
In response to questions from the Gazette, a spokesman for Transport for NSW confirmed the trains won’t have Wi-Fi initially, or reversible seating.

“We’ve consulted with passengers to find out what they wanted and incorporated a lot of this feedback, including two by two seating to provide extra room, tray tables and charging stations for mobile devices into the early designs,” said the spokesman.

“Reversible seating could only have been accommodated by significantly compromising on comfort and seating amenities. Customer feedback indicated that comfort was a key priority.”

The spokesman said the trains will be Wi-Fi enabled “so that we’re in a position to make this feature operational should that decision be taken in the future”.
Blue Mountains Gazette
http://www.bluemountainsgazette.com.au/story/4106942/locals-lose-out-as-23b-nsw-intercity-train-fleet-to-be-built-in-south-korea/?cs=1432
  Southern Aurora Locomotive Driver

When are the V sets meant to be phased out of service? And as an interstater another silly question.. are they currently common on all long distance lines all through the day ie.. Hamilton, South Coast and Blue Mountains?
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

When are the V sets meant to be phased out of service?
Southern Aurora
1997
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
Unfortunately we lost the V sets off the south coast some years ago. These new ones can't come soon enough. I'm getting a bit tired of driving.
  jibbonpoint Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
Unfortunately we lost the V sets off the south coast some years ago. These new ones can't come soon enough. I'm getting a bit tired of driving.
tonyp
Me too, tonyp. I still prefer the Train to driving, though. And the rockin' & rollin' on the Endeavour at least lets you know that you're alive. At my usual time of 5:18am out of Bomaderry in the winter, no pain is felt anyway.
  jcouch Assistant Commissioner

Location: Asleep on a commuter train
I'm wondering what the already existing design is. I've done some digging on the Hyundai Rotem site and cannot find any double deck systems of delivered projects.

https://www.hyundai-rotem.co.kr/Eng/Business/Rail/Business_Record_List.asp?page=4&searchlang=ENG&d1=1&d2=1&d3=1&searchword=
  johnboy Chief Commissioner

Location: Up the road from Gulgong
I'm wondering what the already existing design is. I've done some digging on the Hyundai Rotem site and cannot find any double deck systems of delivered projects.

https://www.hyundai-rotem.co.kr/Eng/Business/Rail/Business_Record_List.asp?page=4&searchlang=ENG&d1=1&d2=1&d3=1&searchword=
jcouch
Tri-Rail in Florida, it's a DMU not EMU, but they provided the carriages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri-Rail
  arctic Deputy Commissioner

Location: Zurich
I'm wondering what the already existing design is. I've done some digging on the Hyundai Rotem site and cannot find any double deck systems of delivered projects.

https://www.hyundai-rotem.co.kr/Eng/Business/Rail/Business_Record_List.asp?page=4&searchlang=ENG&d1=1&d2=1&d3=1&searchword=
Tri-Rail in Florida, it's a DMU not EMU, but they provided the carriages.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri-Rail
johnboy
Its a nice idea but neither of Rotem's DD designs could be considered a template for "off the shelf" for anything in NSW, just look at them, just the basics are vastly different to what would be specified for NSW, including dimensions and propulsion. Design must be coming from somewhere else....

  M636C Minister for Railways

That suggestion could only come from somebody who's never travelled in an Oscar long-distance.
tonyp
I've travelled from Hornsby to Wyong a couple of times, does that count?

I'm not that impressed with V set seats. The armrests are very inconvenient.
Oscar seats are hard but are not as bad as early S set seats.

The Oscar doesn't ride as well as a V set in good condition. Sadly, I don't expect the new trains will either.

The Waratahs do ride as well as a V set, but we seem to have missed that option.

However, the SMH illustrations clearly show a narrow Oscar with fixed seating, so the worst of all possible worlds. I will wait in hope that somehow this will get better but I'm not holding my breath.

So Hyundai Rotem can design the new train, but if the illustrations are correct it will be the same length and the same height as an Oscar but narrower to fit the Blue Mountains tunnels.

M636C
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
That suggestion could only come from somebody who's never travelled in an Oscar long-distance.
I've travelled from Hornsby to Wyong a couple of times, does that count?
M636C
Absolutely not. Try a daily ride from Kiama or Newcastle. The V sets are a beautiful train, they will be greatly missed.

This new one is obviously a bespoke design. There is nothing off-the-shelf about it. The configuration of double deckers in Europe and North America is completely different. Nobody else runs double-deckers exclusively off high UK-style platforms like Australia does. Somebody in government was mad to think in the first place that they could find an off-the-shelf design for our double deckers. But, being bespoke, it will be done more cheaply in South Korea (Constance cited that as a reason) while having quality that it maybe wouldn't have from China.

Although the seats won't reverse it looks like there's a return to applying basic ergonomic principles (which the V sets have and the Oscars don't) and the trays will be a useful addition for a long journey. And given that they're having trays, the only way they could have reversible seats would be for them to rotate, not flip-over. Going by the XPTs, rotating is something that has to be done by staff, not passengers, so that seems to decide it.
  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

That suggestion could only come from somebody who's never travelled in an Oscar long-distance.
I've travelled from Hornsby to Wyong a couple of times, does that count?

I'm not that impressed with V set seats. The armrests are very inconvenient.
Oscar seats are hard but are not as bad as early S set seats.

The Oscar doesn't ride as well as a V set in good condition. Sadly, I don't expect the new trains will either.

The Waratahs do ride as well as a V set, but we seem to have missed that option.

However, the SMH illustrations clearly show a narrow Oscar with fixed seating, so the worst of all possible worlds. I will wait in hope that somehow this will get better but I'm not holding my breath.

So Hyundai Rotem can design the new train, but if the illustrations are correct it will be the same length and the same height as an Oscar but narrower to fit the Blue Mountains tunnels.

M636C
M636C
The at most 70 minute ride from hornsby to wyong does not count as long distance.  Thousands of people do the equivalent in QLD with fixed seating on 3 separate lines.
The fixed seating is really the answer.  People in sydney simply have no experienced what a comfortable train seat is, even the v-set seats aren't that great.   Just remember it is 2+2 seating, so there will be plenty of space.
  GeoffreyHansen Minister for Railways

Location: In a FAM sleeper
Have they considered trying to replicate the current V set seats at all? They're the most comfortable train sets if you're tired. Smile

About fixed seats I did find the original Endeavour seats to be more comfortable than the current Endeavour seats.
  GeoffreyHansen Minister for Railways

Location: In a FAM sleeper
Just a couple of questions. Did the original 1970s V sets have different luggage racks and have the 1970s cars all been scrapped?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The most comfortable seats are easily the T100+ Tangara's. They might look like the same seats as those found on the Oscars but they kill the V set for support and thankfully don't have those horrible armrests. If the Oscars had those seats then nobody would be complaining about the Oscar.
  Jim K Train Controller

Location: Well west of the Great Divide in NSW but not as far as South Australia
Have they considered trying to replicate the current V set seats at all? They're the most comfortable train sets if you're tired. Smile
GeoffreyHansen
Not seriously, no. The 1960's design is 'old' compared to what there is now. Cars are heavy and inefficient, start from scratch. It is a bit like a lot of people 'loved' travelling in a Boeing 707, but when it comes down to it, there is nothing to compare to a Dreamliner.

I travelled in V Sets mainly in the late 1970s, and more so in recent years in retirement. I did find the comfortable for a bad bunch of seats available in NSW. I have not travelled in USA but in Europe "Intercity" type of trains are far superior than the V Sets, and I am talking about commuter trains designed for travel on for less than 2 hour journeys.

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