Modelling the Indian Pacific

 
  allan Chief Commissioner

I'm limited by my own observations, but in 1967, NO steel cars were painted in red and silver.
The D cars and the Cafeteria were the only cars in that scheme apart from the Overland.

In 1970, the SG cars were in red and silver but obviously freshly painted.
I saw 500+600+SCD in Broken Hill yard. I'll have to check the photo for the actual numbers, but I'm pretty sure that I saw 500 on SG, either Broken Hill or Peterborough.
Other BG cars may have been painted in 1968 and 1969, but I don't recall seeing them from the 1970 visit.
The cars were pretty much all in red and silver by the time AN took over.

Peter
M636C
G'day Peter. I've found little evidence to suggest that you are incorrect! Just one photo of two std gauge cars at Jamestown(!) in January 1970 in which the silver on the roof is much brighter than the silver on the sides, but, hell, the paint on the roof may still have been wet. The silver paint used by the SAR in the 1950s and 1960s was notoriously unstable - on the roofs of Brill cars the aluminium flake washed out, leaving the grey base colour.

Dated photos of steel cars are very scarce, apparently. Even the Convention notes skirt around the date of the introduction of the red paint, with two photos dated at 1969, but no other comment.

Cheers

Allan

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  Pressman Spirit of the Vine

Location: Wherever the Tin Chook or Qantas takes me
Were the ER crew dormitory cars still on the IP in 2012 or do I need to use a BRJ instead, please?

Regards

Drew
wagrttn
ER class is still used as a crew car, as are the BRJ's. One ER and 2 x BRJ (sometimes 3) is the norm on the Ghan and one ER plus BRJ's on the IP.

ER 906 and ER 909 are used
  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
I'm limited by my own observations, but in 1967, NO steel cars were painted in red and silver.
The D cars and the Cafeteria were the only cars in that scheme apart from the Overland.

In 1970, the SG cars were in red and silver but obviously freshly painted.
I saw 500+600+SCD in Broken Hill yard. I'll have to check the photo for the actual numbers, but I'm pretty sure that I saw 500 on SG, either Broken Hill or Peterborough.
Other BG cars may have been painted in 1968 and 1969, but I don't recall seeing them from the 1970 visit.
The cars were pretty much all in red and silver by the time AN took over.

Peter
G'day Peter. I've found little evidence to suggest that you are incorrect! Just one photo of two std gauge cars at Jamestown(!) in January 1970 in which the silver on the roof is much brighter than the silver on the sides, but, hell, the paint on the roof may still have been wet. The silver paint used by the SAR in the 1950s and 1960s was notoriously unstable - on the roofs of Brill cars the aluminium flake washed out, leaving the grey base colour.

Dated photos of steel cars are very scarce, apparently. Even the Convention notes skirt around the date of the introduction of the red paint, with two photos dated at 1969, but no other comment.

Cheers

Allan
allan
The cars on broad gauge all had black roofs and got very hot inside so I would offer the fact that the cars at Peterborough got silver roofs to try and deflect a lot of the heat when going to or from Broken hill. So they obviously got the shiniest paint they could get. These cars did not have forced ventilation nor air conditioning and on a day of 39 or 40 degree's they would be like an oven inside. The only ventilation was the drop down windows in them and it was the top that dropped so it did not improve matters much at all, the only other thing was to have all the doors open as well.

I have traveled in a 500/600 car on a stinking hot day though on broad gauge and was glad to get out of it before I collapsed from dehydration or heat stroke! This was with a model railway club on few tours on goods trains years back. Not the best way to travel and Centenary type cars were preferred for this as the windows could  be opened on the car and you could sit on the seat and get the wind in your face. It might have been warm but it was a bit cooler than the air inside the car!
  allan Chief Commissioner

I'm limited by my own observations, but in 1967, NO steel cars were painted in red and silver.
The D cars and the Cafeteria were the only cars in that scheme apart from the Overland.

In 1970, the SG cars were in red and silver but obviously freshly painted.
I saw 500+600+SCD in Broken Hill yard. I'll have to check the photo for the actual numbers, but I'm pretty sure that I saw 500 on SG, either Broken Hill or Peterborough.
Other BG cars may have been painted in 1968 and 1969, but I don't recall seeing them from the 1970 visit.
The cars were pretty much all in red and silver by the time AN took over.

Peter
G'day Peter. I've found little evidence to suggest that you are incorrect! Just one photo of two std gauge cars at Jamestown(!) in January 1970 in which the silver on the roof is much brighter than the silver on the sides, but, hell, the paint on the roof may still have been wet. The silver paint used by the SAR in the 1950s and 1960s was notoriously unstable - on the roofs of Brill cars the aluminium flake washed out, leaving the grey base colour.

Dated photos of steel cars are very scarce, apparently. Even the Convention notes skirt around the date of the introduction of the red paint, with two photos dated at 1969, but no other comment.

Cheers

Allan
allan
It's taken a while, but I've found a record (in Recorder Nov 1965) of car 710 repainted in red and silver!
  a6et Minister for Railways

I was on loan to Parkes for a month in 1970 when the SG opened, the main loco's used on the IP were the 421 at that point of time with the 45's mainly on the interstate freights.  While at Parkes I was rostered on 620 freight one morning to Bathurst, book off and return on #1 IP, on Signing on and walking to the station we noticed the IP was there but there was a 44cl at the front, on arrival at the lead engine we noticed 2 x Mk 2 44cl with Chief Travelling Inspector Cedric Fraser, my driver said he had never set foot in a 44 but Cedric was their for that eventuality and, I was also very familiar with them as Cedric pointed out.

I have lost my records of early workings but one thing that was very evident with the 44cl especially the Mk 2's was the very slow change in transition when the governor would bring in a big drop in amps, and subsequent power this also meant slow revs and response to throttle on them with the weight of the IP you could feel the engines dropping back in speed and going back into the carriages, don't know what it was like or felt in the carriages though.

Peter mentioned the 4 x 46cl that had buffers removed from one end.  Rostering of those engines for the IP meant at least 3 of them had to be at Delec on the days of the down journey and at Lithgow on the up.  After some close rostering by engine control, an amendment came out that in case of one of the 46cl not being available either in shops/repairs or other reasons, mainly being rostered to Gosford and not able to get them back, the IP could be hauled by a 46 without buffers attached to the train but with any member of the class on the lead allowing for Buffer to Buffer working.  

Rostering of two of the bufferless 46's were still the preferred option, but the amendment did mean that very few delays took place.
  patsstuffnow Junior Train Controller

Comrails mentions that 500/ 501 600 / 601 were transferred to Standard Gauge in 12 / 1968

That would have given plenty of time for Peterborough to find some silver paint for the roof prior to the opening.

Peterborough was a good place to get jobs done, like the "invisible" green on the steam locos for ARHS specials etc.
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

The steel cars were repainted from green and cream into Regal Red and silver in dribs and drabs mostly as they came in for a service or repair. You often saw mixed coloured consist for a few years till all was done. There are  quite a few photo's existing that show this!
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
The South Australian railways worked the train to Port Pirie, often with a 600 and an 830, but sometimes just a 600. In 1970, the 600s were red and silver and the 830s were yellow and maroon. (The later ANR era photo on the Auscision site shows the colours reversed - there were only ever one or two red and silver 830s). Later 700 class would have been used, in red and silver.

Peter
M636
Yellow and Maroon? Next you'll be telling us they had a Magpie on the front of the hood!

As the grandson of an ex-SAR (Islington Works) man it will always be Mustard Pot and Regal Red to me!

BG
  allan Chief Commissioner

Yellow and Maroon? Next you'll be telling us they had a Magpie on the front of the hood!
BrentonGolding
Magpie or Shrieking Pike - it's all the same!
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
No it's not.
  M636C Minister for Railways

The South Australian railways worked the train to Port Pirie, often with a 600 and an 830, but sometimes just a 600. In 1970, the 600s were red and silver and the 830s were yellow and maroon. (The later ANR era photo on the Auscision site shows the colours reversed - there were only ever one or two red and silver 830s). Later 700 class would have been used, in red and silver.

Peter
Yellow and Maroon? Next you'll be telling us they had a Magpie on the front of the hood!

As the grandson of an ex-SAR (Islington Works) man it will always be Mustard Pot and Regal Red to me!

BG
BrentonGolding

It is all a long time ago now.

In 1967 I was given a set of colour samples of SAR locomotives.

Some of the colours had proper names.

There were two colours that might be called "Mustard Pot"
Tangerine - used on the 800 class.
Traffic Yellow - used on the 830 class

Equally there were two shades of Regal Red, one a bright gloss colour and the other a semi matt that looked darker.
The lighter colour was used for lining on the Overland and on locomotives (800 and 830). The darker colour was used for the body of 900, 930 and 700 class.

I was told that the 830 class were painted Traffic Yellow but I didn't believe it.
Since I was at Mile End Loco, I took the sample outside and held it up against a BG 830 parked conveniently.

It was definitely Traffic Yellow, the same colour used on road signs everywhere.

I realised that 800s were indeed a different colour to the more common 830s.

There is one important point about this.
As delivered from AE Goodwin, the later 830s, particularly those built for SG, had a slightly more orange colour than real Traffic Yellow. But any 830 painted by SAR was indeed Traffic Yellow.

And indeed these locos all had "Piping Shrike" badges

When I posted the above nearly a year ago, it seemed simpler to use the ordinary names of the colours since in each case there were two options for the established SAR names (and my paint samples proved it...)

Peter
  allan Chief Commissioner

Yellow and Maroon? Next you'll be telling us they had a Magpie on the front of the hood!
Magpie or Shrieking Pike - it's all the same!
allan
http://www.parliament.sa.gov.au/education/students/FlagsandEmblems/Pages/The%20Bird%20Emblem%20of%20South%20Australia.aspx
  patsstuffnow Junior Train Controller

If we are going to get pedantic here we must stop referring to a shrieking pike.

A pike is a type of fish, so unless the line to port Lincoln is running under the sea we will not see many by railway lines.

With reference to Steel cars, I can remember a popular book with a string of steel cars behind a pair of 930's on the Victor line.
I can't access my copy at present, but it may give an insight into black/ silver roof as it is a high percentage of the whole fleet at that time.

And to David.
Maintenance and repainting was a systematic process. Accidents caused some difficulties but otherwise vehicles were rotated through the workshops on a regular basis.

Locos worked on a cycle of services A to F along a sequence like A, B, A, B, A,  C through to F which was a full overhaul and usually repaint.
At any one time there would be one or two redhen sets and one or two 400 class at Islington, Same with bluebirds, Overland cars, etc.

Freight wagons were often done on a campaign basis like fitting of high speed bogies, or new doors etc. But there were also daily maintenance like new planks on the side of an OW along with bogie maintenance, but if the paint shop was full, put it back in traffic with an odd plank unpainted.

It was all coordinated to maximise use of the workshops.

If you search through the Comrails site you can find details of AN actions on many freight wagons. Try starting with the AHDL and look at the choices made. They did not produce 150 wagons in one week.

The 4400 were only made with wooden bodies for a single reason.
At the time of construction the Steel erecting shop was flat out producing many vehicles.
The wooden carriage shop had an idle workforce and capacity ,so the 4400 appeared to keep the workforce in a job. There was actually a plan to produce a steel body, but as things evolved the need for brake vans reduced.

The paints used by the SAR were envied by other systems. I spoke with a person who was highly ranked in the VR and he said that SAR used good quality paints but the VR made do with pigments obtained from the Otway Ranges and dreamed of the day they could use SAR quality paints. He sent me a copy of some Railways of Australia meeting notes to confirm the point.
Yes the colours changed over the years, new suppliers, new paint types ( paint with hardener, 2 pack, acrylic , epoxy styles.
It mostly came from 44 gallon drums and if the apprentice forgot to turn on the agitator you could get varying results.

I have seen a large flaked piece of acrylic paint that fell off the roof of a redhen.
It was a totally different paint to what was on the rest of the body, and a different colour, but was probably bought from Bunnings to patch up a car to keep it in service for a  couple of months or so.



The SAR /  ARHS ran a series of trips on the northern narrow gauge prior to closure, Peterborough cooperated to make engines and rolling stock look as good as possible.  Several locos received "invisible green" in the black paint. Possibly some green from the pass cars supply. It certainly made the locos shine.
The SOC wagons had constant maintenance issues, and could that paint have been used on a few 830's that appeared with slightly unusual traffic yellow?  
As stated the steel cars did not all appear in red and silver instantly. they would have been in the cycle with the Overland, AD, BD, CD cars etc. so each week one or two cars may appear in the new scheme, but Easter, Christmas etc the maximum fleet would hopefully be available for increased loadings so no major work then.






The life of paint was considered to be about 7 years so paint cycles were set around this. Many vehicles outlasted this time frame or no capacity was available. As a home indication take a look at the Stoney. Same wagons, same ages,  but does anybody have a photo of a uniform consist. Dark grey, to light grey, to ANR red, to Green, to GW orange. It was only at the very end of operation that the last light grey wagons disappeared.


At the moment there is a photo for sale of an F class loco hauling 5 bagages/ centre end loaders on Ebay.
I defy anybody looking at that photo to tell me what one is painted in "correct" suburban red. Even colour blind Allan will be able to see the tonal differences.

SteamRanger possibly ran the best matched consists, but their standard Southern Encounter was a matched consist that ran once a week.
As their budget allowed a newly refurbished car to come in the worst one would be withdrawn. It was always Dean Harvey's mission to present the best possible looking train. He was supported by a dedicated team. They always had a substitute pair of cars available in case of failure
The railways never had that type of flexibility, but they always had cars in the wings for failures.If the club car on the Overland failed, they could use the cafeteria car .  Then Adelaide would be used on the East West.
Apparently when Webb was commissioner there was a request for more carriage sheds to be built to protect the carriages from the weather.
He asked if the trains stopped running in the rain. Obvious answer so the funds were allocated  to another project and the sheds never appeared. .
There was a plan to produce large, heavy Pullman type cars. They were planned to have a special paint job on the steel to make them match the existing wooden stock. These cars were very heavy, so the expense and limited capacity meant they never appeared. Had they been available now with limitless diesel power the railway scene may have been very different.
  M636C Minister for Railways

Patsstuffnow said:

The SOC wagons had constant maintenance issues, and could that paint have been used on a few 830's that appeared with slightly unusual traffic yellow?

and

There was a plan to produce large, heavy Pullman type cars. They were planned to have a special paint job on the steel to make them match the existing wooden stock. These cars were very heavy, so the expense and limited capacity meant they never appeared. Had they been available now with limitless diesel power the railway scene may have been very different.

and Allan said

It's taken a while, but I've found a record (in Recorder Nov 1965) of car 710 repainted in red and silver!

I think the yellow used on the SO and SOC wagons, and on the SHX and SGMX wagons (?) was the same as that used on the 830s at least in shade. It might not have been the same quality. It looked different because of the contrast effect of the red lining on the 830.

The SAR annual reports stated that a Pullman style Café-Observation car was being constructed at Islington. I believe that this car became the commissioner's car "Murray" after the plan to re-equip the Overland was abandoned due to the Depression.

As early as 1965, I think a 700 painted in red and silver would be for use on the Overland. I have photos of the Overland arriving in Spencer St about that time with a red and silver ABS car for "roadside passengers". I recall being told that SAR provided a 700 class car for the same purpose West of Serviceton. Since in 1965, there were no D cars yet, I expect that a red and silver 700 would be for the Overland. I'm not sure why passengers from intermediate stations couldn't travel in the BJs, except that it may not have been possible to book seats from these stations.

Peter
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Yellow and Maroon? Next you'll be telling us they had a Magpie on the front of the hood!

As the grandson of an ex-SAR (Islington Works) man it will always be Mustard Pot and Regal Red to me!

BG
BrentonGolding
Um, sorry, the above was meant as a joke not to be taken seriously.......
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
Yellow and Maroon? Next you'll be telling us they had a Magpie on the front of the hood!
Magpie or Shrieking Pike - it's all the same!
http://www.parliament.sa.gov.au/education/students/FlagsandEmblems/Pages/The%20Bird%20Emblem%20of%20South%20Australia.aspx
allan
http://birding-aus.org/piping-shrike-is-south-aus-emblemic-bird/ gives a more detailed history lesson

BG
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
No it's not.
Donald
To any proud South Aussie, even one who hasn't lived there for 30 years like me that emblem is and will always be one thing and one thing only = a Piping Shrike! Laughing

BG
  allan Chief Commissioner

As for the 700 class car on the Overland, it was used as a wayside car until the mid-1950s, when it was "withdrawn" unilasterally, and replaced by the ABS car. The ABS car, in turn, was withdrawn in the mid-1960s, and not replaced.

Railway Transportation Jan 1966 p 32 describes the repainting of "a number" of steel cars "to match the new D type...cars".

As for the bird on the badge, it's an Australian magpie, viewed from behind with it's wings distorted unnaturally. The confusion with the Murray magpie is dual - its call is readily described as "piping", and when they display (which they do often) the wings are held aloft, a lot like the piping shrike.
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

I realise that repainting was a systematic thing that is what I said but not in so many words. They could not take all of them out of service at once to repaint them so it was done bit by bit as cars could be spared. But holidays and things every car was needed to be available and so if a car that was due to go into the paint shop for a repaint might have to wait that little bit longer to actually get it done as it was needed in service. None of the steel car classes are what could be described as large in fact the opposite was true the classes were very small. But those steel cars were needed on some services all the time, Mt Gambier being one such train and that took two sets of cars. One at Mt Gambier at any time and one at Adelaide. They swapped each day or each time the train ran.

Then there was the Port Pirie services and again two sets of car's might be required. So it only left very few of them spare and if anything else needed a steel car either as an extra car or a hired car on a train then there would be even less cars as spares. Football clubs and clubs did sometimes hire a complete car on a normal service as my father often went on football club trips on the Overland and the club hired the whole car to take them, but usually that was a BE car though. Cars could also be hired for intrastate trips as well.

The old emergency train that used to be stabled near the Torrens weir was two centenary cars  and a Centenary Baggage so if it was needed at any time they used that in an emergency. These cars would be rotated every so often that were used like this so that the bearings were kept turned over. This so called emergency train sat in the same siding for years before it was discontinued though. And the only reason the Centenary's were used on it is that they could be spared as everything else was needed in service.

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