Wagga to Albury commuter train proposed

 
Topic moved from News by dthead on 10 Aug 2017 09:43
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Who would deliver the services for the stakeholders V/Line or NSW Trainlink?

Would rollingstock be required and would a VLocity set be a good choice?

Wagga to Albury commuter train proposed

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  Nightfire Minister for Railways

Location: Gippsland
Who would deliver the services for the stakeholders V/Line or NSW Trainlink?

Would rollingstock be required and would a VLocity set be a good choice?

Wagga to Albury commuter train proposed
x31
This Is entirely within NSW boarders, so what's the Victorian Taxpayer got to do with It !
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Who would deliver the services for the stakeholders V/Line or NSW Trainlink?

Would rollingstock be required and would a VLocity set be a good choice?

Wagga to Albury commuter train proposed
x31

The new regional xpt train might free up enough xplorers to provide this service as well as a daily service to griffith.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
How many commuters currently do the run?

That is the first question to answer here.
  a6et Minister for Railways

How many commuters currently do the run?

That is the first question to answer here.
james.au
I think the answer to that would be 0 as there is no commuter service at the moment.   What would be needed is somehow to get people who reside in either town and who drive to the other location for work, and then ask would they use such a service in preference to driving.

This idea has been suggested before on RP, and seems that this time it has come from other sources.  The biggest problem that could be found is that of the amount of use even a 2 car XPL or similar would provide and get and the cost of such. It would have to run both directions twice a day from what I read, to get to both locations in time for the 9-5 workers, and then get them home after finishing, a big ask really, certainly the prospect of day travelers and shoppers may get some other patronage as well, but if its a commuter service then unless there is enough commuters then its not likely to be very viable.

The option of course could be to have an am service start from Wagga Wagga and run to Albury and return but continue on to Sydney basically as the old Riverina Exp, at the same time a daylight service ex Sydney to run to Albury as the return commuter in the afternoon, then return to Wagg Wagga and stable O/night to commence the next morning.

Even there the problem that may arise is the end that gets a too early start and too late a finish home.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Forget non-existent train...far, far easier and the ability to offer more frequent services by operating a bus.

As there's little or no rail culture in Wagga, there's most likely no argument regarding train Vs bus.

Mike.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
How many commuters currently do the run?

That is the first question to answer here.
I think the answer to that would be 0 as there is no commuter service at the moment.   What would be needed is somehow to get people who reside in either town and who drive to the other location for work, and then ask would they use such a service in preference to driving.

This idea has been suggested before on RP, and seems that this time it has come from other sources.  The biggest problem that could be found is that of the amount of use even a 2 car XPL or similar would provide and get and the cost of such. It would have to run both directions twice a day from what I read, to get to both locations in time for the 9-5 workers, and then get them home after finishing, a big ask really, certainly the prospect of day travelers and shoppers may get some other patronage as well, but if its a commuter service then unless there is enough commuters then its not likely to be very viable.

The option of course could be to have an am service start from Wagga Wagga and run to Albury and return but continue on to Sydney basically as the old Riverina Exp, at the same time a daylight service ex Sydney to run to Albury as the return commuter in the afternoon, then return to Wagg Wagga and stable O/night to commence the next morning.

Even there the problem that may arise is the end that gets a too early start and too late a finish home.
a6et

I meant who drives now?  There would be some, how many?  And as to this creating a commuter market, I'm not sure it will.

Problem with a commuter service though is that it would do nothing for the first mile/last mile(s) at each end.

I get a Wagga-Albury-Melbourne service, and perhaps retimed XPTs somehow(1), but in my view a Wagga-Albury commuter service will just cost lots and won't be well patronised.  


(1) BTW, I'm all for a wholesale revision of the Main South/NESG service pattern, with NSW Trains and VLine essentially merging the routes and making better services for all
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
The option of course could be to have an am service start from Wagga Wagga and run to Albury and return but continue on to Sydney basically as the old Riverina Exp, at the same time a daylight service ex Sydney to run to Albury as the return commuter in the afternoon, then return to Wagg Wagga and stable O/night to commence the next morning.

Even there the problem that may arise is the end that gets a too early start and too late a finish home.
a6et
Agreed, the only way for this idea to be even remotely viable IMO is for it to be an extension of an existing service. Wagga > Albury > Melbourne seems the most logical here but as already stated it makes no sense for Victoria to subsidise a service into NSW that has little benefit to it.

Some pax would of course continue on to Melbourne as many people in that area travel to Melb instead of Sydney but you would need Vlocity or other trains stabled at Wagga, crews etc etc and NSW would need to front the $$$ for some of it and they are unlikely to want to hand that over to the Vics.

Our good old State bases Federal political system strikes again!

BG
  Sulla1 Chief Commissioner

How many commuters currently do the run?

That is the first question to answer here.
james.au
Based on the Olympic Way traffic numbers, at best there's less than 1000 daily commuters using the Wagga Wagga/Albury corridor. Compare this to the similar commuting distances between Ayr/Townsville where there's 2600 daily road commuters and Ingham/Townsville where there's 2500 daily road commuters - and there has been zero conversations about a rail component for those busier corridors. Personally, I can't say it looks good for the Wagga Wagga to Albury commuter train getting a run.

Additionally, in the case of Townsville, out of 105,991 daily commuters in the region, only 1778 of those use public transport each day, I daresay Wagga/Albury would be similarly predisposed to preferring private transport.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

There appears to be a great deal of interest in the Wagga local press in this proposal, so some must be traveling between the two towns. There's usually around at least 40 to 50 people get on the south bound midday (around 1400) train, the staff at Wagga said most of these are going to Melbourne though.

A daily a 125 kilometre drive to work is no picnick, we are talking about 3 hours daily in time and 20 litres of fuel and around 60,000 kilometres a year to travel such a distance. You can completely wear out most vehicles within 4 or 5 years.

woodford
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
There appears to be a great deal of interest in the Wagga local press in this proposal, so some must be traveling between the two towns. There's usually around at least 40 to 50 people get on the south bound midday (around 1400) train, the staff at Wagga said most of these are going to Melbourne though.

A daily a 125 kilometre drive to work is no picnick, we are talking about 3 hours daily in time and 20 litres of fuel and around 60,000 kilometres a year to travel such a distance. You can completely wear out most vehicles within 4 or 5 years.

woodford
woodford

The Wagga Council has been recently slammed by some negative issues, including a potentially corrupt general manager who is facing an ICAC investigation that they defended for too long, controversy around new garbage collection routines, and a transport study that has been widely panned by the community.

Perhaps they are looking for something to take away the negative press?  And as Victorians know, talking about rail is always a winner!!!
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

There appears to be a great deal of interest in the Wagga local press in this proposal, so some must be traveling between the two towns. There's usually around at least 40 to 50 people get on the south bound midday (around 1400) train, the staff at Wagga said most of these are going to Melbourne though.

A daily a 125 kilometre drive to work is no picnick, we are talking about 3 hours daily in time and 20 litres of fuel and around 60,000 kilometres a year to travel such a distance. You can completely wear out most vehicles within 4 or 5 years.

woodford
woodford
Just wait for the whinging when petrol hits $2/litre again...
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
There appears to be a great deal of interest in the Wagga local press in this proposal, so some must be traveling between the two towns. There's usually around at least 40 to 50 people get on the south bound midday (around 1400) train, the staff at Wagga said most of these are going to Melbourne though.

A daily a 125 kilometre drive to work is no picnick, we are talking about 3 hours daily in time and 20 litres of fuel and around 60,000 kilometres a year to travel such a distance. You can completely wear out most vehicles within 4 or 5 years.

woodford

The Wagga Council has been recently slammed by some negative issues, including a potentially corrupt general manager who is facing an ICAC investigation that they defended for too long, controversy around new garbage collection routines, and a transport study that has been widely panned by the community.

Perhaps they are looking for something to take away the negative press?  And as Victorians know, talking about rail is always a winner!!!
james.au

The local paper from whence the article appears to have come from is running a poll which looks quite promising for daily or even 3 times a week usage of a rail service.

Is the issue of travel from Albury and between to Wagga or the other way from Wagga to Albury?  The track speed is I think around 130kph making the rail journey a possibility for what 70 mins?

Explorer or SG vlocity?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Forget non-existent train...far, far easier and the ability to offer more frequent services by operating a bus.

As there's little or no rail culture in Wagga, there's most likely no argument regarding train Vs bus.

Mike.
The Vinelander
If you already have the xplorers available then a 2 car xplorer might not be so expensive. It might even help reduce the XPT travel time between Sydney and Melbourne by skipping the little station towns in between.

I would go so far as to run the service between Junee and Albury.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

The option of course could be to have an am service start from Wagga Wagga and run to Albury and return but continue on to Sydney basically as the old Riverina Exp, at the same time a daylight service ex Sydney to run to Albury as the return commuter in the afternoon, then return to Wagg Wagga and stable O/night to commence the next morning.

Even there the problem that may arise is the end that gets a too early start and too late a finish home.
Agreed, the only way for this idea to be even remotely viable IMO is for it to be an extension of an existing service. Wagga > Albury > Melbourne seems the most logical here but as already stated it makes no sense for Victoria to subsidise a service into NSW that has little benefit to it.

Some pax would of course continue on to Melbourne as many people in that area travel to Melb instead of Sydney but you would need Vlocity or other trains stabled at Wagga, crews etc etc and NSW would need to front the $$$ for some of it and they are unlikely to want to hand that over to the Vics.

Our good old State bases Federal political system strikes again!

BG
BrentonGolding


I have no problems with an Xplorer service from Junee to Melbourne. Merge Opal and myki readers in NSW and Victoria so you can use either payment system in either state and get both state governments talking post new XPT regional train. NSW trainlink running Xplorers from southern NSW to Melbourne would remove the N classes from the NE and might even be able to provide more frequent services.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
The option of course could be to have an am service start from Wagga Wagga and run to Albury and return but continue on to Sydney basically as the old Riverina Exp, at the same time a daylight service ex Sydney to run to Albury as the return commuter in the afternoon, then return to Wagg Wagga and stable O/night to commence the next morning.

Even there the problem that may arise is the end that gets a too early start and too late a finish home.
Agreed, the only way for this idea to be even remotely viable IMO is for it to be an extension of an existing service. Wagga > Albury > Melbourne seems the most logical here but as already stated it makes no sense for Victoria to subsidise a service into NSW that has little benefit to it.

Some pax would of course continue on to Melbourne as many people in that area travel to Melb instead of Sydney but you would need Vlocity or other trains stabled at Wagga, crews etc etc and NSW would need to front the $$$ for some of it and they are unlikely to want to hand that over to the Vics.

Our good old State bases Federal political system strikes again!

BG


I have no problems with an Xplorer service from Junee to Melbourne. Merge Opal and myki readers in NSW and Victoria so you can use either payment system in either state and get both state governments talking post new XPT regional train. NSW trainlink running Xplorers from southern NSW to Melbourne would remove the N classes from the NE and might even be able to provide more frequent services.
simstrain

Maybe removing V/Line from the picture might make sense and allow for a better passenger operator to take charge?
  a6et Minister for Railways

The option of course could be to have an am service start from Wagga Wagga and run to Albury and return but continue on to Sydney basically as the old Riverina Exp, at the same time a daylight service ex Sydney to run to Albury as the return commuter in the afternoon, then return to Wagg Wagga and stable O/night to commence the next morning.

Even there the problem that may arise is the end that gets a too early start and too late a finish home.
Agreed, the only way for this idea to be even remotely viable IMO is for it to be an extension of an existing service. Wagga > Albury > Melbourne seems the most logical here but as already stated it makes no sense for Victoria to subsidise a service into NSW that has little benefit to it.

Some pax would of course continue on to Melbourne as many people in that area travel to Melb instead of Sydney but you would need Vlocity or other trains stabled at Wagga, crews etc etc and NSW would need to front the $$$ for some of it and they are unlikely to want to hand that over to the Vics.

Our good old State bases Federal political system strikes again!

BG
BrentonGolding
For any extension and lets not think the current daylight XPT owing to the late arrrival times in both state capitals is it must be deemed user friendly times, both departure and arrivals.  Based on those ideas for such a service to work it makes it hard in some respects to get such a service up and running unless there is some workplace flexibility.  If its commuters for work & assuming 9-5'ers then they we need the latest arrival to be 0845 and departure for home at 1715.

The other aspect is based on current XPT timetables, it makes it all but impossible to get the times right for that sort of service unless, the option of starting from Wagga Wagga - Albury is considered, or perhaps from Junee and that could make it better for use of a train set and crewing arrangements.  

The current time XPT tables show the overall times Syd Melbourne & ret are approx 11 hours,  Syd-Wagga Wagga 6.22 hours, Albury 1.10 Melbourne 3.20  rounding out figures return trips are a bit longer for Melbourne -Sydney. Neither of these services would be really suitable for what would be deemed as commuter/worker type services as they do not meet up at the needed times from both Albury or Wagga Wagga.

The other problem though is that the current daylight service is three hours too early on the down journey which is needed to allow the current use of the set out or Melbourne that night, but to provide the commuter link within the needed times means another train would need to leave Sydney at approx 3 hours later, is there sufficient need for that? Even then the return from Albury to Wagga Wagga would not leave Albury until approx 1830 arrive WW at 1930'ish.

I mention starting ex Junee and also to finish at Junee for these trains. Reasoning is that Junee would be a smarter location for stabling the carriages and there is already crews stationed there, they run north to Goulburn (may have change) and through to Melbourne.  The new service would mean a crew prepares the cummuter service, ensures fuel is full, then runs to Wagga Wagga - Albury, and return to Junee, a fairly good shift of over 5hours, the evening service means the crew would stable the train at Junee.

TT would look something like this

Sydney - 1052  

WW 1715  

ALB  1830    - 1845

WW  2000

Junee  2030          

WW    0600

Albury  0715   0730

WW     0845

Syd      1515

Give or take in the times etc.
  a6et Minister for Railways

There appears to be a great deal of interest in the Wagga local press in this proposal, so some must be traveling between the two towns. There's usually around at least 40 to 50 people get on the south bound midday (around 1400) train, the staff at Wagga said most of these are going to Melbourne though.

A daily a 125 kilometre drive to work is no picnick, we are talking about 3 hours daily in time and 20 litres of fuel and around 60,000 kilometres a year to travel such a distance. You can completely wear out most vehicles within 4 or 5 years.

woodford

The Wagga Council has been recently slammed by some negative issues, including a potentially corrupt general manager who is facing an ICAC investigation that they defended for too long, controversy around new garbage collection routines, and a transport study that has been widely panned by the community.

Perhaps they are looking for something to take away the negative press?  And as Victorians know, talking about rail is always a winner!!!

The local paper from whence the article appears to have come from is running a poll which looks quite promising for daily or even 3 times a week usage of a rail service.

Is the issue of travel from Albury and between to Wagga or the other way from Wagga to Albury?  The track speed is I think around 130kph making the rail journey a possibility for what 70 mins?

Explorer or SG vlocity?
x31
Potentially most of the line can be run up to 160K/mh
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
If 160k/ph is available to the rail set then the journey could be a lot quicker than 70 mins and much faster and safer than road. Google says the trip is 1 hr and 45mins by car.

The cost for the return trip might even be cheaper than driving.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
If 160k/ph is available to the rail set then the journey could be a lot quicker than 70 mins and much faster and safer than road. Google says the trip is 1 hr and 45mins by car.

The cost for the return trip might even be cheaper than driving.
x31
What typically kills these proposals is that there is usually little demand and what time would you run it as the frequency will never be high enough and that the railway stations at country stations are poorly placed for work purposes and connecting transport options are non existent or too slow to be overall competitive.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Would there be demand for XPT capacity between the cities of Wagga and Albury.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Would there be demand for XPT capacity between the cities of Wagga and Albury.
bevans
No
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
If 160k/ph is available to the rail set then the journey could be a lot quicker than 70 mins and much faster and safer than road. Google says the trip is 1 hr and 45mins by car.

The cost for the return trip might even be cheaper than driving.
What typically kills these proposals is that there is usually little demand and what time would you run it as the frequency will never be high enough and that the railway stations at country stations are poorly placed for work purposes and connecting transport options are non existent or too slow to be overall competitive.
RTT_Rules

First mile/last mile issues - Wagga and Albury are cities built in the era of the car.  They're not concentrated within walking distance of the station, and so will necessitate additional travel operators at each end.

Plus, I'm pretty sure each city looks after its own population in terms of jobs, more or less.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Cars are not the enemy - they have their place.  This is one of them, where the routes are just too thin to warrant anything else.

Id be pushing for a continuous bus service and see what that does to demand if people there were serious about generating traffic like this.
  bevans Site Admin

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