Wagga to Albury commuter train proposed

 
Topic moved from News by dthead on 10 Aug 2017 09:43
  billybaxter Deputy Commissioner

Location: Bosnia Park, Fairfield
What would a weekly ticket on such a service cost? Something like $200 at least I imagine unless it's to become another money pit. Who's going to shell out that much week after week, especially on country wages, rather than move closer to work. I imagine the residents of both towns would prefer the money be spent on health, local roads etc.

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  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
The option of course could be to have an am service start from Wagga Wagga and run to Albury and return but continue on to Sydney basically as the old Riverina Exp, at the same time a daylight service ex Sydney to run to Albury as the return commuter in the afternoon, then return to Wagg Wagga and stable O/night to commence the next morning.

Even there the problem that may arise is the end that gets a too early start and too late a finish home.
Agreed, the only way for this idea to be even remotely viable IMO is for it to be an extension of an existing service. Wagga > Albury > Melbourne seems the most logical here but as already stated it makes no sense for Victoria to subsidise a service into NSW that has little benefit to it.

Some pax would of course continue on to Melbourne as many people in that area travel to Melb instead of Sydney but you would need Vlocity or other trains stabled at Wagga, crews etc etc and NSW would need to front the $$$ for some of it and they are unlikely to want to hand that over to the Vics.

Our good old State bases Federal political system strikes again!

BG


I have no problems with an Xplorer service from Junee to Melbourne. Merge Opal and myki readers in NSW and Victoria so you can use either payment system in either state and get both state governments talking post new XPT regional train. NSW trainlink running Xplorers from southern NSW to Melbourne would remove the N classes from the NE and might even be able to provide more frequent services.
simstrain

Surely you can't be serious Question

I had no idea how cr@p those Xplorers were till I did my brief 25 min sprint from Mt Victoria to Katoomba last year.

Noisier than the air-con units of a VLocity.

Numbum after 25 mins in the train...the poor souls who travel from Bathurst have no idea how bad these cars are because they know no different.

Junee to Melbourne Question...that's a form of torture that cannot be supported...imagine the media when word gets out about the hard seats compared to the OLD comfy seats in the quiet XPT.

Mike.
  a6et Minister for Railways

The option of course could be to have an am service start from Wagga Wagga and run to Albury and return but continue on to Sydney basically as the old Riverina Exp, at the same time a daylight service ex Sydney to run to Albury as the return commuter in the afternoon, then return to Wagg Wagga and stable O/night to commence the next morning.

Even there the problem that may arise is the end that gets a too early start and too late a finish home.
Agreed, the only way for this idea to be even remotely viable IMO is for it to be an extension of an existing service. Wagga > Albury > Melbourne seems the most logical here but as already stated it makes no sense for Victoria to subsidise a service into NSW that has little benefit to it.

Some pax would of course continue on to Melbourne as many people in that area travel to Melb instead of Sydney but you would need Vlocity or other trains stabled at Wagga, crews etc etc and NSW would need to front the $$$ for some of it and they are unlikely to want to hand that over to the Vics.

Our good old State bases Federal political system strikes again!

BG


I have no problems with an Xplorer service from Junee to Melbourne. Merge Opal and myki readers in NSW and Victoria so you can use either payment system in either state and get both state governments talking post new XPT regional train. NSW trainlink running Xplorers from southern NSW to Melbourne would remove the N classes from the NE and might even be able to provide more frequent services.

Surely you can't be serious Question

I had no idea how cr@p those Xplorers were till I did my brief 25 min sprint from Mt Victoria to Katoomba last year.

Noisier than the air-con units of a VLocity.

Numbum after 25 mins in the train...the poor souls who travel from Bathurst have no idea how bad these cars are because they know no different.

Junee to Melbourne Question...that's a form of torture that cannot be supported...imagine the media when word gets out about the hard seats compared to the OLD comfy seats in the quiet XPT.

Mike.
The Vinelander
Mike

Thank you for that report shows that I am not the only person that had issues with them, unless the cars are different, and I was riding in first class on the Northern Tablelands service.

My big hope is that when the replacement trains arrive it will be with updated XPT style trains rather than then noise boxes, also before any contract is decided on/signed they need to get every politician and force them to ride in an XPL set from Sydney to Armidale and return, just a bog standard set with nothing extra done to them so they get the feel that paying customers have to endure. I guess though they will all give it a tick as that is what they do best.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Would there be demand for XPT capacity between the cities of Wagga and Albury.
No
james.au
This would be correct for the reasons already mentioned in this thread. There is though a definite case to extend the VLine Melbourne Albury service to Wagga. This though would require something like a 6 car VLocity. such a service would only take around 45 minute longer from Wagga than the current N class service from Albury. Such a serivce would allow a decent amount of traffic between Wagga and Albury for things like appointments and accessing occasionally required services.

Any kind of shuttle rail service between Wagga and Albury would be far to expensive for the traffic availble for popuation centres as small as these cities are.  

woodford
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Would there be demand for XPT capacity between the cities of Wagga and Albury.
bevans

Maybe it might be possible for 3-4 Syd-Mel XPT round trips a day when the new regional train is running. From my understanding these new trains will not be going interstate but will be used to replace XPT's on all other runs. Enough of the new trains will be ordered to replace current XPT, Xplorer and maybe even endeavour services like the Bathurst bullet and Goulburn. This would free up the XPT's for Melbourne and Brisbane services.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Mike

Thank you for that report shows that I am not the only person that had issues with them, unless the cars are different, and I was riding in first class on the Northern Tablelands service.

My big hope is that when the replacement trains arrive it will be with updated XPT style trains rather than then noise boxes, also before any contract is decided on/signed they need to get every politician and force them to ride in an XPL set from Sydney to Armidale and return, just a bog standard set with nothing extra done to them so they get the feel that paying customers have to endure. I guess though they will all give it a tick as that is what they do best.
a6et

The replacement will not be like an XPT and I have never had a problem with the Xplorer as it has the exact same seats as the XPT. It has some noise on acceleration because every carriage has an engine and they are hooked up to a transmission instead of an electric motor like the xpt. The Xplorer also has the older kta19 engine instead of the newer more powerful qsk19 found in trains like the hunter rail car and the vlocity.
  Minardiau Train Controller

No offence guys. But some of the thinking expressed here is exactly the type of thinking that has caused the massive decline in our rural rail service network.

I lived in a city in Germany that is smaller than Wagga and it had it's own suburban rail network.

Sydney is bursting. Now with the exception of Newcastle which could rely on rebuilding the old coal corridors, cities like Albury, Wagga, Armidale, Tamworth are going to need to expand.

As such any future services should be based around on what will be needed in 50 years and not what current demand requires.

Of course Australian's would need to understand that the cost of our public transport is insanely cheap compared to world prices.
  a6et Minister for Railways

No offence guys. But some of the thinking expressed here is exactly the type of thinking that has caused the massive decline in our rural rail service network.

I lived in a city in Germany that is smaller than Wagga and it had it's own suburban rail network.

Sydney is bursting. Now with the exception of Newcastle which could rely on rebuilding the old coal corridors, cities like Albury, Wagga, Armidale, Tamworth are going to need to expand.

As such any future services should be based around on what will be needed in 50 years and not what current demand requires.

Of course Australian's would need to understand that the cost of our public transport is insanely cheap compared to world prices.
Minardiau
Mate, I agree with your sentiments however its very much 19th & early 20th century thinking.

You have to remember that the founder of this state and rail system had clear visions for the future that included all of the state, today, the only vision is centred around densely populated capitals, based on their own dense internal thinking.  They cannot see much past this decade, if they can see that far, let alone in 50 years time.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

No offence guys. But some of the thinking expressed here is exactly the type of thinking that has caused the massive decline in our rural rail service network.
Minardiau
The airplane, new motorways and steam age alignments is what has caused the massive decline in rural rail in NSW. I see a future for Junee to Albury railway services because of the line being quite straight and there being 100,000 people in those 2 cities. It would probably have to wait until the new regional rolling stock is operational to free up some xplorer's.

Was that little town in Germany on a rail line in between 2 much larger towns?
  woodford Chief Commissioner

No offence guys. But some of the thinking expressed here is exactly the type of thinking that has caused the massive decline in our rural rail service network.

I lived in a city in Germany that is smaller than Wagga and it had it's own suburban rail network.

Sydney is bursting. Now with the exception of Newcastle which could rely on rebuilding the old coal corridors, cities like Albury, Wagga, Armidale, Tamworth are going to need to expand.

As such any future services should be based around on what will be needed in 50 years and not what current demand requires.

Of course Australian's would need to understand that the cost of our public transport is insanely cheap compared to world prices.
Mate, I agree with your sentiments however its very much 19th & early 20th century thinking.

You have to remember that the founder of this state and rail system had clear visions for the future that included all of the state, today, the only vision is centred around densely populated capitals, based on their own dense internal thinking.  They cannot see much past this decade, if they can see that far, let alone in 50 years time.
a6et
One also needs to remember back in the 1850's, the railways was the then revolutionary method of transport that completely revolutionised society as road transport would following the 1st world war. Sadly our leaders including nearly all of the current politicians and VLine management STILL think of its as old fashioned governement run service and do NOT see at all, its (railways) ability to provide a long term saving of VERY valuable resources, particularly light crude oil.

One will NEVER convince me that 50 separate grain trucks and trailers are a viable long term replacement for a single 2000 ton grain train.

woodford
  a6et Minister for Railways

No offence guys. But some of the thinking expressed here is exactly the type of thinking that has caused the massive decline in our rural rail service network.

I lived in a city in Germany that is smaller than Wagga and it had it's own suburban rail network.

Sydney is bursting. Now with the exception of Newcastle which could rely on rebuilding the old coal corridors, cities like Albury, Wagga, Armidale, Tamworth are going to need to expand.

As such any future services should be based around on what will be needed in 50 years and not what current demand requires.

Of course Australian's would need to understand that the cost of our public transport is insanely cheap compared to world prices.
Mate, I agree with your sentiments however its very much 19th & early 20th century thinking.

You have to remember that the founder of this state and rail system had clear visions for the future that included all of the state, today, the only vision is centred around densely populated capitals, based on their own dense internal thinking.  They cannot see much past this decade, if they can see that far, let alone in 50 years time.
One also needs to remember back in the 1850's, the railways was the then revolutionary method of transport that completely revolutionised society as road transport would following the 1st world war. Sadly our leaders including nearly all of the current politicians and VLine management STILL think of its as old fashioned governement run service and do NOT see at all, its (railways) ability to provide a long term saving of VERY valuable resources, particularly light crude oil.

One will NEVER convince me that 50 separate grain trucks and trailers are a viable long term replacement for a single 2000 ton grain train.

woodford
woodford
Woody, no disagreement with me in what you say, and your comment re the Vic governments attitude is no different to any other one, we have PM who promotes the virtue of rail and the PT component yet outside the ILR project the money goes to suburban areas, along with massive amounts into the road networks while that benefits motorists it benefits the trucking industry to a greater degree.

I worked on the NSWGR and on various joint Rail working committee's and paid for by the Railways under the guise/brand of the time, the deliberate turning away of passengers to many large rural sectors especially in the night services was unbelievable and I have recounted them on RP over time but many don't believe it happened owing to WHY would the do it, the only answer was government policies that were not made public.  It was bad enough when Pax services were removed but the worst aspect was the turning away of thousands of tonnes of freight as well.

We have seen so many threads about the need for the primary main lines across NSW to have realignments including grades and curves it would benefit more people and businesses big time if it happened.  One only has to look at the success of the Bathurst Bullet service to see people will use rail when its convenient and timings are made.  An extension of that service to and from Dubbo with a two daily service would bring in customers, and the same would happen on the south with a Wagga Wagga - Albury service, better still would be have the service from Junee and even out from the branch as well.

Same in Victoria with rural lines and it benefits all tiers of governments to have efficient transport options available but that also needs the infrastructure ROW that's able to provide it.
  Minardiau Train Controller

No offence guys. But some of the thinking expressed here is exactly the type of thinking that has caused the massive decline in our rural rail service network.
The airplane, new motorways and steam age alignments is what has caused the massive decline in rural rail in NSW. I see a future for Junee to Albury railway services because of the line being quite straight and there being 100,000 people in those 2 cities. It would probably have to wait until the new regional rolling stock is operational to free up some xplorer's.

Was that little town in Germany on a rail line in between 2 much larger towns?
simstrain

Not really. The state I was in. Sydney alone has a larger population than the entire state and it's largest city is smaller than Newcastle and for the most part still has steam age alignments. Oh and the state has a smaller population density than the Hunter Valley.

Anyway the city in question. Population 65,000 approx. That's including the little villages around it. Had a local service on 25klm branch line with 19 stations with hourly services both directions. You are talking a catchment of less than 80,000 people. Let stops at villages with maybe 200 people.

Rolling stock is made up of 1 or 2 car Stadler Regio-Shuttle RS1

We are talking Newcastle-Cessnock.......Maybe a line to Nelson Bay to include Raymond Terrace and the Airport.

Stop thinking that every single train needs to stop and start at Central.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

For a start we are talking about Albury and Wagga wagga and not the Hunter Valley. The distance between these 2 towns is 125km's and not the 25km's in your example in Germany. That is not to say that a rail service wouldn't be successful but I just think you need to find something closer in distance to compare.

I live in a city that is on the main south line and it has one of only 2 non central bound services in Sydney and so I do not think like that. I have also been a proponent of other non Sydney bound trains in regional areas but whenever you suggest this in NSW you get a talking too like non other by every man and his dog who apparently needs to head into Sydney and can't take a walk across the platform to join a different service at say lithgow even if it would provide more frequent services.

Both Cessnock and Kurri Kurri have a rail line and why there isn't a rail service to these towns is beyond my understanding. Not sure what can be done for raymond terrace.
  Junction box Chief Commissioner

Location: newy
I don't believe passenger services are marketed properly, de corporatizing CL was a backward step.
The public need to know what is available as an alternative to driving.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I don't believe passenger services are marketed properly, de corporatizing CL was a backward step.
The public need to know what is available as an alternative to driving.
Junction box

Why?

The car is much more convenient and faster with much more efficient vehicles being sold and the possibility that within 20 years only electric cars will be sold and so the environmental issue will no longer be a factor. Trains make sense in heavily populated areas like Sydney because if we didn't have them the traffic would be gridlocked 24/7.

Australia is not Europe or Asia and it is unaffordable to run trains for extremely small amounts of numbers of people. What we do need to do is utilise freight rail to get as many long haul trucks off the road as possible. This is what we should be looking at in regional rail and not passenger services.
  Minardiau Train Controller

I don't believe passenger services are marketed properly, de corporatizing CL was a backward step.
The public need to know what is available as an alternative to driving.

Why?

The car is much more convenient and faster with much more efficient vehicles being sold and the possibility that within 20 years only electric cars will be sold and so the environmental issue will no longer be a factor. Trains make sense in heavily populated areas like Sydney because if we didn't have them the traffic would be gridlocked 24/7.

Australia is not Europe or Asia and it is unaffordable to run trains for extremely small amounts of numbers of people. What we do need to do is utilise freight rail to get as many long haul trucks off the road as possible. This is what we should be looking at in regional rail and not passenger services.
simstrain

Again that is old thinking. Those Stadler Regio-Shuttle RS1 only have 2 250hp diesels. Yet can fit 200 people and a top speed of 120klm. So runnings costs are less than coaches with their big diesels.

What's more is that they can also run on light rail so you don't actually have to build/re-build to mainline standard. These babies were actually built and designed for your local branch lines in the valleys of the Harz, Thuringen Wald ect in mind. They have low floors, so even more savings for the reconstruction of stations.

So all up. The benifits speak for themselves.

And once the government starts showing interest in regional and rural rail again. The locals may start thinking. "smeg. Lets use this line to get some of the freight to (insert intermodal hub here)". If people see brightly coloured railcars with a (insert country town/region here) plastered all over they might go "smeg lets get that train and check it out"

But the residents need to understand that costs will have to rise. Not by much. But a trip from Newcastle to Sydney with DB prices is about can range from 20-100 bucks depending on service and passanger class.
  Minardiau Train Controller

The RegioSprinter would be another suitable Railcar for our branch lines to.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
I don't believe passenger services are marketed properly, de corporatizing CL was a backward step.
The public need to know what is available as an alternative to driving.

Why?

The car is much more convenient and faster with much more efficient vehicles being sold and the possibility that within 20 years only electric cars will be sold and so the environmental issue will no longer be a factor. Trains make sense in heavily populated areas like Sydney because if we didn't have them the traffic would be gridlocked 24/7.

Australia is not Europe or Asia and it is unaffordable to run trains for extremely small amounts of numbers of people. What we do need to do is utilise freight rail to get as many long haul trucks off the road as possible. This is what we should be looking at in regional rail and not passenger services.

Again that is old thinking. Those Stadler Regio-Shuttle RS1 only have 2 250hp diesels. Yet can fit 200 people and a top speed of 120klm. So runnings costs are less than coaches with their big diesels.

What's more is that they can also run on light rail so you don't actually have to build/re-build to mainline standard. These babies were actually built and designed for your local branch lines in the valleys of the Harz, Thuringen Wald ect in mind. They have low floors, so even more savings for the reconstruction of stations.

So all up. The benifits speak for themselves.

And once the government starts showing interest in regional and rural rail again. The locals may start thinking. "smeg. Lets use this line to get some of the freight to (insert intermodal hub here)". If people see brightly coloured railcars with a (insert country town/region here) plastered all over they might go "smeg lets get that train and check it out"

But the residents need to understand that costs will have to rise. Not by much. But a trip from Newcastle to Sydney with DB prices is about can range from 20-100 bucks depending on service and passanger class.
Minardiau
Having been a traveled around Germany I know where you are coming from, but,
- Population density is significantly higher
- Country is significantly smaller (put Australia's population in Vic as a starter
- Rail penetration is much higher (ie goes where you want)
- Cost of fuel is 50% higher
- Average car is smaller
- Average car ownership is less
- The idea of packing up the kids, half the house and boat or caravan and heading down the highway is foreign to most of them
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
What's more is that they can also run on light rail so you don't actually have to build/re-build to mainline standard. These babies were actually built and designed for your local branch lines in the valleys of the Harz, Thuringen Wald ect in mind. They have low floors, so even more savings for the reconstruction of stations.
Minardiau
What are the local roads like in those valleys?  Remember we are talking in this case of a flat, straight road with decent speed limits that can offer decent competition against rail.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Again that is old thinking. Those Stadler Regio-Shuttle RS1 only have 2 250hp diesels. Yet can fit 200 people and a top speed of 120klm. So runnings costs are less than coaches with their big diesels.

What's more is that they can also run on light rail so you don't actually have to build/re-build to mainline standard. These babies were actually built and designed for your local branch lines in the valleys of the Harz, Thuringen Wald ect in mind. They have low floors, so even more savings for the reconstruction of stations.

So all up. The benifits speak for themselves.

And once the government starts showing interest in regional and rural rail again. The locals may start thinking. "smeg. Lets use this line to get some of the freight to (insert intermodal hub here)". If people see brightly coloured railcars with a (insert country town/region here) plastered all over they might go "smeg lets get that train and check it out"

But the residents need to understand that costs will have to rise. Not by much. But a trip from Newcastle to Sydney with DB prices is about can range from 20-100 bucks depending on service and passanger class.
Minardiau

I never said coaches. I said cars and the car is the dominant mode of transport in Australia. The highways got upgraded which means the car is faster then the train just about everywhere along the east coast of NSW. Albury to Wagga Wagga is one of the few areas in NSW this is not the case.

Passenger rail has never made money in Australia and never will make money and because of that there is very little expenditure on passenger rail in this country. TGV type hst lines will never happen in this country. Outside of the major cities there will be no new passenger rail lines. Locals will never think smeg lets check the train out because the car is always the better option.

If the price of a train trip from Newcastle to Sydney was ever $100 it would result in 0 patronage. The average Australian is not made of money especially for the extreme high cost of living we have in this country.

As for Albury and Wagga wagga I don't see why vline couldn't extend there service into NSW. Especially if the NSW government give them a whole stack of old xplorers and endeavours and ask them to start providing such a service once the new regional rolling stock is operational.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

go to directions in google maps and choose Newcastle and Brisbane as your points and check out the results.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
The distance is same as Awaba on Newcastle Line to Central or about $8.50 each way for peak adult travel, plus access to/from each station.

A few comments
- Is there supporting bus services in each town to get the commuter from the station too work?
- The train travel time is favorable to driving, basically slightly faster station to station, but how many people actual do the drive now?
- Actual time people want to travel as because as soon as you make them wait 1hr or so they are in the car.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
The distance is same as Awaba on Newcastle Line to Central or about $8.50 each way for peak adult travel, plus access to/from each station.

A few comments
- Is there supporting bus services in each town to get the commuter from the station too work?
- The train travel time is favorable to driving, basically slightly faster station to station, but how many people actual do the drive now?
- Actual time people want to travel as because as soon as you make them wait 1hr or so they are in the car.
RTT_Rules

Useful comparison.

To answer:

1. There are bus companies, but I suspect with such a service it would require adjustment to routes and frequencies to collect and distribute pax.
2. This is the great unknown.  
3. I suspect that the travel time would be roughly the same, assuming that train covers the distance quicker, but there are inneficiencies in the pickup and distribution activities to/from station.

A further comment

Will people value the travel time more if they are able to do other things on the train (e.g. work, or personal interest like reading or watching vids) compared to in the car where they have to hold onto the wheel?
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
The distance is same as Awaba on Newcastle Line to Central or about $8.50 each way for peak adult travel, plus access to/from each station.

A few comments
- Is there supporting bus services in each town to get the commuter from the station too work?
- The train travel time is favorable to driving, basically slightly faster station to station, but how many people actual do the drive now?
- Actual time people want to travel as because as soon as you make them wait 1hr or so they are in the car.

Useful comparison.

To answer:

1. There are bus companies, but I suspect with such a service it would require adjustment to routes and frequencies to collect and distribute pax.
2. This is the great unknown.  
3. I suspect that the travel time would be roughly the same, assuming that train covers the distance quicker, but there are inneficiencies in the pickup and distribution activities to/from station.

A further comment

Will people value the travel time more if they are able to do other things on the train (e.g. work, or personal interest like reading or watching vids) compared to in the car where they have to hold onto the wheel?
james.au
For me, if the travel time penalty was no more than 30min longer, I certainly would go by rail but its still $20/day plus bus costs and $120+ / week maybe seen as expensive for many even if its cheaper than driving. In City you have congestion and parking costs and PT frequency, you don't have this in rural areas.

From NSW govt side, they would be placing two 2 car DMU's in each city, running 1 return service in AM and another in PM. Lets say depart 6am and 7:30am and 4:30pm and 6pm. The drivers would need to work a split shift to make it practical. I highly doubt a midday service is needed especially with XPT coming through.

Overall its probably easier to run a Wagga to Albury in AM and reverse in PM by extending the V/line, but it won't be set up well for commuters between these two cities.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Could end up being a Talgo set?

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