Wagga to Albury commuter train proposed

 
Topic moved from News by dthead on 10 Aug 2017 09:43
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

It could be anything but I think his main point is that the line south of Macarthur to Canberra needs re alignment and from Goulburn to Canberra a rebuilt track to allow faster operation then 60km/h.

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  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
For me, if the travel time penalty was no more than 30min longer, I certainly would go by rail but its still $20/day plus bus costs and $120+ / week maybe seen as expensive for many even if its cheaper than driving. In City you have congestion and parking costs and PT frequency, you don't have this in rural areas.

From NSW govt side, they would be placing two 2 car DMU's in each city, running 1 return service in AM and another in PM. Lets say depart 6am and 7:30am and 4:30pm and 6pm. The drivers would need to work a split shift to make it practical. I highly doubt a midday service is needed especially with XPT coming through.

Overall its probably easier to run a Wagga to Albury in AM and reverse in PM by extending the V/line, but it won't be set up well for commuters between these two cities.
RTT_Rules

Some quick fuel calcs.  

130km each way per day is 260km, at say 10L per 100km that is 26L.  At $1.50/L that is $39 per day, or $195 per week.  Over a 46 week work week (lets take off 4 wks annual leave, 1wk public holidays and 1 wk sick), Thats $8,970.  Add on the ATO deduction rate for motor vehicle use per km (which is 66c/km) and thats $171 per day for general use (or $39,468 per year) (NB this feels high, its possibly lower).  So thats a daily cost of $210 for the trip to work (but could be lower).

Now, I'm going to suggest there really aren't that many who are doing this trip on a regular basis given those costs ($48,438).  But if there were enough to fill say a sprinter, then perhaps something that size would make sense?

Now, another point, given the significant cost above, that indicates that there is a barrier to travel between ABX and WGA that may limit employment opportunities.  Ie, people have to fork out huge sums to work in the other town, either through paying to drive, or paying to move house.  Perhaps this suggestion by the Council does make sense in that it opens up new employment opportunities?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I don't know about that fuel figure of yours. Maybe that is a v8 fuel figure but I only average that number in city driving. In country driving on a highway where a constant 100km/h can be maintained I would get about 8l per 100km's in my commodore. A small 4 cylinder would be even more economical on such driving.

I would also say that $1.50 is the price of fuel for country towns. Last time I filled up at my local 7 eleven it was 103.9 cents a litre.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
For me, if the travel time penalty was no more than 30min longer, I certainly would go by rail but its still $20/day plus bus costs and $120+ / week maybe seen as expensive for many even if its cheaper than driving. In City you have congestion and parking costs and PT frequency, you don't have this in rural areas.

From NSW govt side, they would be placing two 2 car DMU's in each city, running 1 return service in AM and another in PM. Lets say depart 6am and 7:30am and 4:30pm and 6pm. The drivers would need to work a split shift to make it practical. I highly doubt a midday service is needed especially with XPT coming through.

Overall its probably easier to run a Wagga to Albury in AM and reverse in PM by extending the V/line, but it won't be set up well for commuters between these two cities.

Some quick fuel calcs.  

130km each way per day is 260km, at say 10L per 100km that is 26L.  At $1.50/L that is $39 per day, or $195 per week.  Over a 46 week work week (lets take off 4 wks annual leave, 1wk public holidays and 1 wk sick), Thats $8,970.  Add on the ATO deduction rate for motor vehicle use per km (which is 66c/km) and thats $171 per day for general use (or $39,468 per year) (NB this feels high, its possibly lower).  So thats a daily cost of $210 for the trip to work (but could be lower).

Now, I'm going to suggest there really aren't that many who are doing this trip on a regular basis given those costs ($48,438).  But if there were enough to fill say a sprinter, then perhaps something that size would make sense?

Now, another point, given the significant cost above, that indicates that there is a barrier to travel between ABX and WGA that may limit employment opportunities.  Ie, people have to fork out huge sums to work in the other town, either through paying to drive, or paying to move house.  Perhaps this suggestion by the Council does make sense in that it opens up new employment opportunities?
james.au
10L/100km is getting an older large car these days. My Aurion does 9L/100km at 140km/h average speed for the 90km Dubai to Abu Dhabi each day. My wife's Toyota Zelas which using the Camry engine and box gets 7L/100km doing the same into other side of Abu Dhabi 125km each way.

Back in early mid 2000's I was commuting Gladstone to Rockhampton (another place there is a the occasional call for local train), 110km, but I had a 91 Hilux Diesel surf, the drive was ok, mostly following a busy railway corridor. But I still stayed O/N in Rocky 3 nights a week. Average speeds of 90km/hr vs 140km/hr compared to UAE is alot of time and fuel. In Sydney its just time and far less fuel. In UAE its time and fuel, but not the cost, although not as cheap as it used to be.

Overall I suspect you are right and few are doing the commute now.

Connecting the two cities efficiently would expand the employment options and flexibility but it won't create jobs apart from a few train drivers.

In the end, I'm not sure this is the right thing to do and I doubt it would get used much, certainly less than a bus but sometimes I think you need to try to appease the voters and prove it once and for all. Unlikely most of rest of Australia, this track is actually pretty quick so it has this on its side.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

This isn't to say I am against a train service but maybe for once in recent memory vline can provide a passenger service into another state if given some rolling stock courtesy of the NSW Government.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
At 8L/100km, that equates to $31.20 per day or $156pw (5 days travel only)  This is a $7.80 difference to my 10L.  My falcon does somewhere around the 9, depending on the fuel.

I dont think this changes that much.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
Connecting the two cities efficiently would expand the employment options and flexibility but it won't create jobs apart from a few train drivers.

In the end, I'm not sure this is the right thing to do and I doubt it would get used much, certainly less than a bus but sometimes I think you need to try to appease the voters and prove it once and for all. Unlikely most of rest of Australia, this track is actually pretty quick so it has this on its side.
RTT_Rules

The track being good is one thing, it used to let the XPT do 160 and I think somewhere along there the X did its record of somewhere around 190kmh no?

Though the average speed will be reduced somewhat by the number of stops id expect it would be asked to make.  At a minimum it would stop at The Rock, Henty and Culcairn.  Id be thinking reopening places like Yerong Ck, Gerogery and Uranquinty would be less likely given cost (but hey this is politics).

Lets see what TfNSW comes back at council with.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
I wonder if a heritage rail organisation would be able to get a couple of old heritage cars and run a trial for a few months....?
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11395997.htm for the discussion that went way off topic.
  cityrail-rulez Chief Train Controller

As a Wagga local, this idea is ok but personally a waste of time

The idea of having the commuter train from Wagga to Albury it's to link up with V/line services from Albury to Melbourne
and allows people from NSW to spend our money within Victoria hence brings more money into Melbourne to pay for buildings and so on, and the idea of merging Wagga to Albury as a massive metropolitan city in southern NSW

Personally I'd prefer to see the people of NSW spend more money in NSW for our projects and have an extra 2 XPT's, 1 XPT from Sydney to Albury/returns, 1 XPT from Sydney to Wagga/returns and of course the normal Sydney to Melbourne/returns XPT during the day and over night Sydney to Melbourne and returns

As for the merging of Wagga to Albury to become a massive metropolitain city and seeing a communter train it'll never happen
and I would seriously doubt any of the railway stations between would even be considered to be reopened
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The council in the Riverina has just endorsed the feasibility study for an expansion of passenger rail services in the area, including Griffith, Wagga and Albury.  Local services.

https://www.railpage.com.au/news/article-32387/
  SinickleBird Chief Train Controller

Location: Qantas Club at Mudgee International Airport
Once again, a local council is strong proponent of a service that someone else will provide and finance.

How about they charter a train on a regular basis, and see if they can fill enough seats to cover costs?
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Griffith and Albury would be best managed out of Wagga one would think.  As a hub I am advocating.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
There is a by-election for Wagga right now.  Council is out to get whatever they can....
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
ABC Riverina reporting this morning that the bus trial will cease after 2 June this year due to low patronage.  An average of 6 people using the service according to the rep from NSW Trainlink.
  8077 Chief Train Controller

Location: Crossing the Rubicon
ABC Riverina reporting this morning that the bus trial will cease after 2 June this year due to low patronage.  An average of 6 people using the service according to the rep from NSW Trainlink.
james.au

Perhaps people would rather travel on a train service?

It was once the case companies would put on rail services for a trial.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
ABC Riverina reporting this morning that the bus trial will cease after 2 June this year due to low patronage.  An average of 6 people using the service according to the rep from NSW Trainlink.

Perhaps people would rather travel on a train service?

It was once the case companies would put on rail services for a trial.
8077
Tend to agree, and also the timing of this service was not as good as it could have been arrivals and departures were not conducive to people using the service to commute for work opportunities etc.  Ok for VFR and shopping but not much else.
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

ABC Riverina reporting this morning that the bus trial will cease after 2 June this year due to low patronage.  An average of 6 people using the service according to the rep from NSW Trainlink.

Perhaps people would rather travel on a train service?

It was once the case companies would put on rail services for a trial.
Tend to agree, and also the timing of this service was not as good as it could have been arrivals and departures were not conducive to people using the service to commute for work opportunities etc.  Ok for VFR and shopping but not much else.
james.au
Maybe the majority of people who make such trips prefer the convenience of their motor vehicle. The majority of passengers on NSW Trainlink services are concession fare paying passengers with very few full fare passengers.
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
ABC Riverina reporting this morning that the bus trial will cease after 2 June this year due to low patronage.  An average of 6 people using the service according to the rep from NSW Trainlink.

Perhaps people would rather travel on a train service?

It was once the case companies would put on rail services for a trial.
Tend to agree, and also the timing of this service was not as good as it could have been arrivals and departures were not conducive to people using the service to commute for work opportunities etc.  Ok for VFR and shopping but not much else.
Maybe the majority of people who make such trips prefer the convenience of their motor vehicle. The majority of passengers on NSW Trainlink services are concession fare paying passengers with very few full fare passengers.
nswtrains
Agreed also, though I know my sister's inlaws have begun getting the train down and back instead of driving, and pay full fare, as they dont need their car in Albury.

I suspect a train service would be more fully appreciated if it also went to Melbourne....
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

I think local services are a great idea. This Albury to Wagga service could be extended further.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Well post new regional rolling stock there will be plenty of left over xplorers and endeavours.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
I think local services are a great idea. This Albury to Wagga service could be extended further.
ANR
To where, funded by whom & under what business case? Rolling Eyes
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
ABC Riverina reporting this morning that the bus trial will cease after 2 June this year due to low patronage.  An average of 6 people using the service according to the rep from NSW Trainlink.

Perhaps people would rather travel on a train service?

It was once the case companies would put on rail services for a trial.
Tend to agree, and also the timing of this service was not as good as it could have been arrivals and departures were not conducive to people using the service to commute for work opportunities etc.  Ok for VFR and shopping but not much else.
Maybe the majority of people who make such trips prefer the convenience of their motor vehicle. The majority of passengers on NSW Trainlink services are concession fare paying passengers with very few full fare passengers.
Agreed also, though I know my sister's inlaws have begun getting the train down and back instead of driving, and pay full fare, as they dont need their car in Albury.

I suspect a train service would be more fully appreciated if it also went to Melbourne....
james.au

The biggest issue for rural and regional rail services to be used as a commuter service is you just don't have the numbers to generate any level of reasonable frequency and equally important is dealing with the "last mile" issue.

On the later we once tried so hard to make the RTT service from Rocky to Gladstone and return a potential commuter option for my wife (we lived in Gladstone but I worked in Rocky and we though a 110km commute on the Tilt Train would be straight forward and use a car in Gladstone to get to her work) and simply storing a car at Gladstone station overnight and weekends just didn't stack up in so many ways, risk of theft or vandalised being the biggest one. I even wrote to QR to request a discount for bulk buying tickets on the train where its never full over this leg and QR refused to offer any further reduction in fare to something closer to the Citytrain fare equivalent.

In the end we did what most regional people do when faced with a similar situation, I eventually found a job in Gladstone.

The Wagga - Albury service will never work as a commuter service for all these reasons and more and even the more flexible bus trial has proven to be a failure and yes while trains are more popular, 6 people is a very low base.
  Ethan1395 Junior Train Controller

Location: An OSCar H Set
Maybe the majority of people who make such trips prefer the convenience of their motor vehicle. The majority of passengers on NSW Trainlink services are concession fare paying passengers with very few full fare passengers.
Agreed also, though I know my sister's inlaws have begun getting the train down and back instead of driving, and pay full fare, as they dont need their car in Albury.

I suspect a train service would be more fully appreciated if it also went to Melbourne....
james.au
There is also the issue of travelling around a particular destination without their private vehicle, although your sister's inlaws don't need their car in Albury, I imagine most as Albury and Wagga Wagga most likley are not large enough to support any usable car-dependency reducing public transport network (although I would love to be corrected on this).

When travelling from Newcastle to Sydney, it's a no-brainer to catch a train, but I imagine for anyone living in Sydney travelling to Newcastle for whatever reason, even if the train is the more desirable option for intercity travel (relaxing watching beautiful scenery vs constantly changing lanes to get around trucks), people would need to take their private motor vehicle as getting around Newcastle without a car is too difficult, I imagine the same is applying with this Albury-Wagga services?

I think local services are a great idea. This Albury to Wagga service could be extended further.
ANR
Good luck telling THAT to our capital-centric government :/
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

No such service will happen as a payback for the key regional electorates booting the Nats out last state election.

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