Lilydale Rail Crossing review and thus future of Meto rail returning to Helaesville

 
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
There are other priorities on our network, but with providing a service to connect with the Yarra Valley is something I’d like to see

Yarra Valley To Healesville is for the YVTR and I want them to have all the success they can have. Promoting it for tourists, wine and food tasters and families is something that needs to be done.

You could provide an hourly service to Yarra Glen with a Vlo/sprinter to funnel tourists to the valley, something i would do with the service stopping at Richmond, Camberwell, Ringwood, Lilydale and Yarra Glen.

Metro to Coldstream with a massive stabling facility, is the only chance Metro will go beyond Lilydale. There may be some demand but you would need Park and ride facilities as well as frequent bus services funnelled into Colstream from Yering, Kinglake, Lilydale Airport and Yarra Glen to justify it. Then maybe extend the yvtr to Coldstream similar to the puffing billy at Belgrave
ptvcommuter
There is already an hourly service (give or take) to Yarra Glen.  It's called a bus, and it costs little to run in terms of infrastructure.  While the YVTR might get away with existing at-grade level crossings, such as those at Yarra Glen and Healesville, it's doubtful if any kind of Metro service could do so, thus requiring grade separations at Lilydale, Coldstream and Yering.  Add to that the problem of the flood plain with its numerous bridges, not to mention the complexities of new track and signalling, and the bus service looks even more attractive.

In terms of bringing tourists into the valley, one of the main reasons is to visit wineries and restaurants.  This ideally requires a car, or a winery-tour bus, so they wouldn't be coming by train anyway.  And the existing PT bus provides a much better service than a train could.  The stops in Yarra Glen (two of them) are much more conveniently located than the station, and the same is true at the Healesville end, where you also have some services extended to the sanctuary, and others running directly down the highway to Lilydale.

Run a Vlo/sprinter?  There would be pathing issues to run it as described, particularly if/when the 20 minute headway to Ringwood is introduced (already running at weekends, probably the most popular time for tourists), but a DERM used to run a similar service from Lilydale.  It closed, due to a combination of poor track, expensive maintenance, and even poorer patronage.

If the YVTR, once up and running between YG and Healesville, is to attract tourists, they could come by train to Lilydale and then use the bus, or more likely come by car, park at one end and do the return trip - or use the bus to go back.  Lack of a train service from Lilydale would not be a problem, but in any case the provision of one is just not feasible.

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  trainbrain Deputy Commissioner

Maybe you should look more at Lilydale/Mt. Evelyn/ Wandin/Woori Yallock, by far a larger population.
Larger population, maybe, but the Warburton line closed in 1965, well before the Healesville line (1980). The Warburton line weaved and climbed to pick up every little township it could which made it slow and unappealing with the development of the car. The Martyr's bus from Warburton does not carry many per trip and it goes direct from Wandin Nth to Lilydale ignoring Mt Evelyn so shortening the length of that trip (a more frequent service might improve the number who catch it but I wouldn't bet on it - too many of my fellow Yarra Valley residents are addicted to their cars).
The Ventura buses from Mt Evelyn possibly carry even fewer than Martyrs and the locals have two routes to choose from, so they have better options than those further out in the Valley but still choose not to use them.

Neil
ngarner
you are wrong on that , point I drive coaches across the whole Yarra Valley, and the Martyrs buses are always well patronised, some Saturday morning buses they need too run two vehicles to meet demand. The railway right of way is mostly clear and all the bridges are still there. So what if it closed in 1965, in Britain they are reopening line that have not seen trains in 60 years. we are no different, the Upper Yarra has the population.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Lalor to Whittlesea closed in 1959.
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Some rough 2016 population figures from the Australian Bureau of Statistics website:

Coldstream          2100
Yarra Glen            2800


Mt Evelyn              9700
Wandin North       3000
Seville                    2300


South Morang     24000
Mernda                16000
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Maybe you should look more at Lilydale/Mt. Evelyn/ Wandin/Woori Yallock, by far a larger population.
Larger population, maybe, but the Warburton line closed in 1965, well before the Healesville line (1980). The Warburton line weaved and climbed to pick up every little township it could which made it slow and unappealing with the development of the car. The Martyr's bus from Warburton does not carry many per trip and it goes direct from Wandin Nth to Lilydale ignoring Mt Evelyn so shortening the length of that trip (a more frequent service might improve the number who catch it but I wouldn't bet on it - too many of my fellow Yarra Valley residents are addicted to their cars).
The Ventura buses from Mt Evelyn possibly carry even fewer than Martyrs and the locals have two routes to choose from, so they have better options than those further out in the Valley but still choose not to use them.

Neil
you are wrong on that , point I drive coaches across the whole Yarra Valley, and the Martyrs buses are always well patronised, some Saturday morning buses they need too run two vehicles to meet demand. The railway right of way is mostly clear and all the bridges are still there. So what if it closed in 1965, in Britain they are reopening line that have not seen trains in 60 years. we are no different, the Upper Yarra has the population.  
trainbrain
"Mostly" perhaps, but not completely.  (Lilydale College, just one example.)  And we are different to Britain, we don't have the population base, and it wouldn't be a "reopening", it would have to be a complete rebuild.  New track, new stations, signalling, bridges, level crossings .....    Not worth it.  (A bridge which has had no proper maintenance since 1965 is unlikely to be fit for a railway.)

If the Warby or Healesville lines had never been closed, but had struggled on in band-aid mode with essential maintenance where necessary, there is a faint chance that they may have gradually been improved, brought up to scratch, and survived.  For example, lots of new sleepers were dropped along the Healesville line just a couple of weeks before the closure;  had they been inserted into the track instead of into back yards the outcome may have been different.  Once a line is abandoned, that's it.

An exception to all of this is the Whittlesea line, which was once abandoned beyond Thomastown, but has been gradually clawed back to Epping, South Morang, and now Mernda.  The reason is population pressure and housing density in that northern area, something which, thankfully, the Yarra Valley will never have.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
The Ventura buses from Mt Evelyn possibly carry even fewer than Martyrs and the locals have two routes to choose from, so they have better options than those further out in the Valley but still choose not to use them.

Neil
"ngarner"

A recap on Ventura's Lilydale routes, for those playing at home.

* Telebus thinks it's the 1920s and must have stolen the trading hours sign from the local post office and adopted it as its own (right down to the Saturday timetable finishing at about 1PM and not operating on Sundays or public holidays).

* 663 is a glorified regional bus but without any of the benefits of being a regional bus (e.g. you get a normal route bus rather than a comfy coach, while copping an hour's wait if you miss it).

* 664 might be acceptable during peak but the service level is an almost unusable half an hour off-peak.

* 670 might be considered the "flagship" Lilydale route but it doesn't stop Ventura from making sure that the buses are every half an hour after 7 (and it still only finishes at 9; SmartBus it is not - when Lilydale shared the 901 they didn't magically stop running SmartBuses at 9PM).

* 671/672/675 are just Telebuses with route numbers right down to the same almost nonexistent operating hours.

* 679 is infrequent and literally runs around in a circle at Mt Evelyn, and doesn't even run a full outbound service after dark. Late night services terminate in the middle of nowhere called Montrose and the bus heads back to Lilydale - anyone on Canterbury Rd beyond Montrose (Kilsyth, Bayswater North, Heathmont) all miss out.

* 680 runs half-hourly during peak, hourly between peaks, and doesn't run at all on the weekend or public holidays, a relic from when it was a glorified school bus primarily for ferrying TAFE students to and from the Lilydale campus, as opposed to being the one and only proper bus service east of Mooroolbark (including the housing estates along Hull Rd - the area isn't all empty bushland like you might see on the train opposite the quarry).

It's no wonder the station carparks are always full when there is practically no choice aside from pure luck if the bus timetable aligns with the train or if the bus is even running in the early AM or late PM (and don't even bother attempting to catch a bus on the weekend or public holidays). "Since 1924", right down to the timetables. Of course, it wasn't any different when Invicta or Grenda were running the services (in fact, it was even worse prior to the timetable reforms of the mid 2000s), so I'm not just Ventura-bashing here, they just happen to be the monopoly after going Pac-Man with the eastern suburbs bus companies.

Bring on the second track from Mooroolbark already and extend the line to Coldstream. Any further is a waste of money, which could be better spent on duplicating the remaining parts of the Burnley group (Ashburton to Alamein wouldn't cost nearly as much as Ferntree Gully to Belgrave), or grade separating the tram squares (note that while Glenhuntly's two level crossings are on the LXRA list, Kooyong (Glenferrie Rd) and Riversdale aren't at all).
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
Coldstream is not justifiable either - there simply isn't the population.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
Coldstream is not justifiable either - there simply isn't the population.
ZH836301
I agree that Coldstream, in itself, does not have the population at present.  No argument there.

But the railhead at Lilydale does not just serve the local Lilydale population - it services a vast drawing area, from Kinglake to Yarra Glen to Healesville to Warburton to Monbulk, and all points in between.  Some commuters from these places can use a bus, but many others prefer to drive or have no choice, and they all descend on Lilydale, meaning that the car parks at the station fill up very early.  In my case (and I'm sure I'm not the only one), I have occasion to use the train when the constraints of the limited bus service from Yarra Glen do not suit, and therefore I must drive to Lilydale and hope to get a park.  Often I'm too late, even though it's still early, so I must park in a nearby street, thereby missing the train I was hoping to catch, annoying the locals, and risking a parking fine.  If a train service, and car parking, were available at Coldstream, then many commuters would choose to terminate their drive at that point rather than continue into Lilydale suburbia, which would also take some of the pressure off the parking at Lilydale station.

So for these reasons, I believe that a station at Coldstream would be well patronised, and justifiable.
  drunkill Junior Train Controller

Location: Melbourne, Australia
If coldstream gets a future stabling or maintenance facility then a park and ride station can be attached.
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
You can't believe anything drunkill says; his judgement is seriously impaired as indicated by his choice of AFL team.Rolling Eyes
  stooge spark Train Controller

Coldstream is not justifiable either - there simply isn't the population.
ZH836301
But there is the space for stabling at that end, it'd probably be like Waterfall station in Sydney.
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

But there is the space for stabling at that end, it'd probably be like Waterfall station in Sydney.
stooge spark

If the tail is still wagging the dog after four hours, please consult a veterinary professional.
  reubstar6 Chief Train Controller

You can't believe anything drunkill says; his judgement is seriously impaired as indicated by his choice of AFL team.
Valvegear
16 premierships? Very sensible choice indeed.
  ZH836301 Chief Commissioner

Location: BleakCity
If a train service, and car parking, were available at Coldstream, then many commuters would choose to terminate their drive at that point rather than continue into Lilydale suburbia, which would also take some of the pressure off the parking at Lilydale station.
Lad_Porter
If more parking is required it can be placed at Lilydale - there is ample railway property between the highway and Beresford Rd.

The capital expenditure including two grade separations, along with the ongoing opex, makes an extension unjustifiable.
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
If a train service, and car parking, were available at Coldstream, then many commuters would choose to terminate their drive at that point rather than continue into Lilydale suburbia, which would also take some of the pressure off the parking at Lilydale station.
If more parking is required it can be placed at Lilydale - there is ample railway property between the highway and Beresford Rd.

The capital expenditure including two grade separations, along with the ongoing opex, makes an extension unjustifiable.
ZH836301
Problem being ZH, that with the LX removal at the highway (rail over road), a lot of space will be need for the works to avoid huge disruptions.

My take is that the new above ground station and tracks will be finished before digging up the old crossing.
There goes a big chunk of the car park , some of which might return later.
The existing station building will remain in keeping with it's heritage listing.

IF Lilidale remains as the terminating station, then considerable re-arrangement of the stable yard will be needed to match the new station and tracks. That will take more space in the corridor available.

All up, scope for a significant increase to the size of the car park is limited.
Moving the stabling and additional car parking to Coldstream is one way of managing the customer demand in the area. It wouldn't be cheap, but neither would some of the other options.

cheers
John
  trainbrain Deputy Commissioner

I have stated recently the new station will be built clser to Lilydale high School, it will be a similar set up asper mernda. Th bus terminal will be moved to a new location, and Maroondah Hwy will stay as is, with the rail going over that location.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
If a train service, and car parking, were available at Coldstream, then many commuters would choose to terminate their drive at that point rather than continue into Lilydale suburbia, which would also take some of the pressure off the parking at Lilydale station.
If more parking is required it can be placed at Lilydale - there is ample railway property between the highway and Beresford Rd.

The capital expenditure including two grade separations, along with the ongoing opex, makes an extension unjustifiable.
Problem being ZH, that with the LX removal at the highway (rail over road), a lot of space will be need for the works to avoid huge disruptions.

My take is that the new above ground station and tracks will be finished before digging up the old crossing.
There goes a big chunk of the car park , some of which might return later.
The existing station building will remain in keeping with it's heritage listing.

IF Lilidale remains as the terminating station, then considerable re-arrangement of the stable yard will be needed to match the new station and tracks. That will take more space in the corridor available.

All up, scope for a significant increase to the size of the car park is limited.
Moving the stabling and additional car parking to Coldstream is one way of managing the customer demand in the area. It wouldn't be cheap, but neither would some of the other options.

cheers
John
justarider
Add to that the additional complication/disruption of the duplication from Mooroolbark, when it arrives.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
I have stated recently the new station will be built clser to Lilydale high School, it will be a similar set up asper mernda. Th bus terminal will be moved to a new location, and Maroondah Hwy will stay as is, with the rail going over that location.
trainbrain
Why move the bus terminal?  A new station could be built, Mernda style, with its north end extending over and a little beyond the highway, thus allowing access to the existing bus terminal via stairs/lifts/escalators.  This would also allow access to the station from the existing car parks, if these are to be retained, without having to cross the highway.  (Otherwise, where would any new car parking be located?)

If you are going to move the bus terminal, then where to exactly, and what would become of the old one?
  trainbrain Deputy Commissioner

I have stated recently the new station will be built clser to Lilydale high School, it will be a similar set up asper mernda. Th bus terminal will be moved to a new location, and Maroondah Hwy will stay as is, with the rail going over that location.
Why move the bus terminal?  A new station could be built, Mernda style, with its north end extending over and a little beyond the highway, thus allowing access to the existing bus terminal via stairs/lifts/escalators.  This would also allow access to the station from the existing car parks, if these are to be retained, without having to cross the highway.  (Otherwise, where would any new car parking be located?)

If you are going to move the bus terminal, then where to exactly, and what would become of the old one?
Lad_Porter
Simple, either side of the new station, with access to John St and Maroondah Hwy, some shops either side are ear marked for demolition.
  trainbrain Deputy Commissioner

Oh and by the way, the existing station stays as is, Heritage listed has taken care of that.
  ngarner Train Controller

Location: Seville
I have stated recently the new station will be built clser to Lilydale high School, it will be a similar set up asper mernda. Th bus terminal will be moved to a new location, and Maroondah Hwy will stay as is, with the rail going over that location.
Why move the bus terminal?  A new station could be built, Mernda style, with its north end extending over and a little beyond the highway, thus allowing access to the existing bus terminal via stairs/lifts/escalators.  This would also allow access to the station from the existing car parks, if these are to be retained, without having to cross the highway.  (Otherwise, where would any new car parking be located?)

If you are going to move the bus terminal, then where to exactly, and what would become of the old one?
Simple, either side of the new station, with access to John St and Maroondah Hwy, some shops either side are ear marked for demolition.
trainbrain
That sounds like a reasonably considered idea. Can I ask where your information is sourced? Not knocking what you've posted, I'm just interested in getting an idea of how likely it is to occur.
The LXRA website is still mute on what they are intending but after 4 years you would expect that they have some idea of the final design, especially as rail under road is almost certainly not going to happen due to the existing constraints of the grade and John St rail bridge.

Neil
  trainbrain Deputy Commissioner

I have stated recently the new station will be built clser to Lilydale high School, it will be a similar set up asper mernda. Th bus terminal will be moved to a new location, and Maroondah Hwy will stay as is, with the rail going over that location.
Why move the bus terminal?  A new station could be built, Mernda style, with its north end extending over and a little beyond the highway, thus allowing access to the existing bus terminal via stairs/lifts/escalators.  This would also allow access to the station from the existing car parks, if these are to be retained, without having to cross the highway.  (Otherwise, where would any new car parking be located?)

If you are going to move the bus terminal, then where to exactly, and what would become of the old one?
Simple, either side of the new station, with access to John St and Maroondah Hwy, some shops either side are ear marked for demolition.
That sounds like a reasonably considered idea. Can I ask where your information is sourced? Not knocking what you've posted, I'm just interested in getting an idea of how likely it is to occur.
The LXRA website is still mute on what they are intending but after 4 years you would expect that they have some idea of the final design, especially as rail under road is almost certainly not going to happen due to the existing constraints of the grade and John St rail bridge.

Neil
ngarner
It comes from workers that actually work with metro, drivers , staff etc...…………..
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
I have stated recently the new station will be built clser to Lilydale high School, it will be a similar set up asper mernda. Th bus terminal will be moved to a new location, and Maroondah Hwy will stay as is, with the rail going over that location.
Why move the bus terminal?  A new station could be built, Mernda style, with its north end extending over and a little beyond the highway, thus allowing access to the existing bus terminal via stairs/lifts/escalators.  This would also allow access to the station from the existing car parks, if these are to be retained, without having to cross the highway.  (Otherwise, where would any new car parking be located?)

If you are going to move the bus terminal, then where to exactly, and what would become of the old one?
Simple, either side of the new station, with access to John St and Maroondah Hwy, some shops either side are ear marked for demolition.
That sounds like a reasonably considered idea. Can I ask where your information is sourced? Not knocking what you've posted, I'm just interested in getting an idea of how likely it is to occur.
The LXRA website is still mute on what they are intending but after 4 years you would expect that they have some idea of the final design, especially as rail under road is almost certainly not going to happen due to the existing constraints of the grade and John St rail bridge.

Neil
It comes from workers that actually work with metro, drivers , staff etc...…………..
trainbrain
Car parking at Lilydale covers a huge area, both sides of the tracks, and needs to be even bigger because it fills up early.  If the existing parking is to be retained, then you would need pedestrian access from the parking to the new station, including crossing the highway - either a footbridge or a subway.  From the far end of the existing carpark to the new station would also be a very long walk.  If the existing car parking is to be discontinued, augmented, or placed nearer to the new station, where would it actually be?  Somewhere near the new bus station?   Seems like it would require more than just "some shops" to be demolished.

There has not been a satisfactory answer as to why the end of the new station could not be extended over the highway.  This would solve both the parking and the bus station access, partially at least, and there is enough room between the highway and the existing station to allow this to happen.  Why move the bus station if it is not necessary?  Why construct pedestrian access across the highway if it is not necessary?  Why demolish more shops and businesses than necessary?
  trainbrain Deputy Commissioner

I have stated recently the new station will be built clser to Lilydale high School, it will be a similar set up asper mernda. Th bus terminal will be moved to a new location, and Maroondah Hwy will stay as is, with the rail going over that location.
Why move the bus terminal?  A new station could be built, Mernda style, with its north end extending over and a little beyond the highway, thus allowing access to the existing bus terminal via stairs/lifts/escalators.  This would also allow access to the station from the existing car parks, if these are to be retained, without having to cross the highway.  (Otherwise, where would any new car parking be located?)

If you are going to move the bus terminal, then where to exactly, and what would become of the old one?
Simple, either side of the new station, with access to John St and Maroondah Hwy, some shops either side are ear marked for demolition.
That sounds like a reasonably considered idea. Can I ask where your information is sourced? Not knocking what you've posted, I'm just interested in getting an idea of how likely it is to occur.
The LXRA website is still mute on what they are intending but after 4 years you would expect that they have some idea of the final design, especially as rail under road is almost certainly not going to happen due to the existing constraints of the grade and John St rail bridge.

Neil
It comes from workers that actually work with metro, drivers , staff etc...…………..
Car parking at Lilydale covers a huge area, both sides of the tracks, and needs to be even bigger because it fills up early.  If the existing parking is to be retained, then you would need pedestrian access from the parking to the new station, including crossing the highway - either a footbridge or a subway.  From the far end of the existing carpark to the new station would also be a very long walk.  If the existing car parking is to be discontinued, augmented, or placed nearer to the new station, where would it actually be?  Somewhere near the new bus station?   Seems like it would require more than just "some shops" to be demolished.

There has not been a satisfactory answer as to why the end of the new station could not be extended over the highway.  This would solve both the parking and the bus station access, partially at least, and there is enough room between the highway and the existing station to allow this to happen.  Why move the bus station if it is not necessary?  Why construct pedestrian access across the highway if it is not necessary?  Why demolish more shops and businesses than necessary?
Lad_Porter
mate, just keep the tripe coming, do not ask me, I am just telling you as it is. You can chose to either believe it or not, just watch that them thar space at Lilydale.
  Lad_Porter Chief Commissioner

Location: Yarra Glen
No tripe, just trying to think it through logically.  I don't believe or disbelieve anything.  Not doubting the Metro workers for a minute, but there could be a difference between what they believe and what the LXRA eventually comes up with.  As you say, "watch that space", but it's early days yet.  Not scheduled for completion until 2022.

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