Melbourne Airport Rail Link

 
  footscrazy Station Master

The Victorian 2018/19 budget is only three weeks away so we’re due to get budget ‘leaks’ shortly.

I wanna put it out there, I reckon there’ll be an announcement that the Bendigo line will be diverted to run via the airport.

Yeah yeah, I know... it’s been talked about for years, but this is the year Smile

The election is 6 months away and an airport rail link would play too well for Andrews to ignore.

PS: NFI when it’ll actually be built, just saying I’ll put a $50 down that it’ll be announced prior to May 1st

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  mikesyd Chief Commissioner

Location: Lurking
Yeah yeah, I know... it’s been talked about for years, but this is the year Smile
footscrazy
And talked about in numerous threads on the subject, so why start yet another one.
  footscrazy Station Master

so why start yet another one
Mikesyd


Cos I wanna see if anyone’s up for putting a $fitty on it! Laughing

3weeks...
  stooge spark Train Controller

This is what, the three millionth thread on Melbourne Airport rail?
Why not just post in one of those threads?
I would at least understand if the last Airport thread was last posted in 6 months ago or something, but I'm sure there's one one that hasn't seen anything for a week, and you can post in that one.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
so why start yet another one


Cos I wanna see if anyone’s up for putting a $fitty on it! Laughing

3weeks...
footscrazy

I expect we will see this also as this would be the only area the Coalition could jump on and the ALP will close the door.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
The Case Study is already being prepared for the Airport Line in the background. No chance it will be a diverted rail line, the economics don't even stack up for the stand-alone line, however it will be a political decision to proceed with it
gb274

Appreciate the update but ask the question is this a part of the federal government funding which was provided by Darren Chester?
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
Loss making?  Are you suggesting public transport is a business?

Sydney and Brisbane Airports provide a receipt for business use why can't Melbourne?
  Valvegear Dr Beeching

Location: Norda Fittazroy
Loss making?  Are you suggesting public transport is a business?
"x31"
It sure is in Melbourne; just ask Metro.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
My point simply without criticism of the poster was about governments thinking it is a business when it clearly is not.  Jacinta Allan does not have the best interests of the state in mind when she continues to use Metro as a scapegoat.

An airport link should not be a private service.
  footscrazy Station Master

The funding source I've never asked for as it didn't interest me at the time - but for the economics of it, essentially the patronage numbers are a bit of a guess, especially in non-peak times. There would need to be significant mode shift of business and family travelers from taxis/uber (work reimbursements) and driving/long-term parking (convenience) respectively to properly (non-politically) justify removing a profitable bus service for a loss-making heavy rail line. Nothing particularly ground breaking about the logic - the most realistic option would have been to just have dedicated bus lanes for the entire journey, but we all know the competing interests over-ruling there
gb274


I agree with you gb274 that some red paint on the Tulla & MyKi integration would be by far the most cost effective way to provide a PT (albeit unsubsidized) service to the airport however the political reality now points to a train line.

I'm curious though in your thought that a diverted Bendigo line would be less cost effective than a stub line branching from Albion.
Would the extra cost of the greenfields track north of the airport not be offset in a CBA by the potential increase in capacity on the Sunbury line?
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
I am not sure about the Bendigo Line change as this would require electrification via the Airport so no VLocity units would be used.  To make this a reality would we be talking about an extension of the electrification to a point DOWN of the junction to the airport.  Was this junction location ever defined or did the users here have a view?

Then you would need to run a different configuration of EMU.
  John.Z Chief Train Controller

The funding source I've never asked for as it didn't interest me at the time - but for the economics of it, essentially the patronage numbers are a bit of a guess, especially in non-peak times. There would need to be significant mode shift of business and family travelers from taxis/uber (work reimbursements) and driving/long-term parking (convenience) respectively to properly (non-politically) justify removing a profitable bus service for a loss-making heavy rail line. Nothing particularly ground breaking about the logic - the most realistic option would have been to just have dedicated bus lanes for the entire journey, but we all know the competing interests over-ruling there


I agree with you gb274 that some red paint on the Tulla & MyKi integration would be by far the most cost effective way to provide a PT (albeit unsubsidized) service to the airport however the political reality now points to a train line.

I'm curious though in your thought that a diverted Bendigo line would be less cost effective than a stub line branching from Albion.
Would the extra cost of the greenfields track north of the airport not be offset in a CBA by the potential increase in capacity on the Sunbury line?
footscrazy
From my very basic analysis (and opinion), Bendigo via Airport is better than a branch line from Metro because:

*Sunbury Line will soon share with Melton and possibly Wyndham Vale/Tarneit, needs as many paths as possible (24+)
*Bendigo trains take up too many paths throughout the day, will only get worse as cities such as Kyneton become more commuter focussed.
*Bendigo trains if continuing to share with Metro trains will become slower, and less well patronised as a result

*VLine trains are more suited to taking airport passengers than commuter (Metro) trains, see Sydney
*The quicker the journey, the more people taken off the freeway in cars/taxis/ubers. Train will be faster running on RRL stopping pattern (Footscray/Sunshine/Airport) rather than Sunshine stopping pattern (West Melbourne/Footscray/etc./etc./etc./Sunshine/Airport)

*To increase RRL paths, can run Geelong via Werribee and Gippsland Trains through Southern Cross to Ballarat/Bendigo/Airport/Seymour as through services (think RER in Paris)
*Scope for 4 RRL tracks between Southern Cross and Sunshine if more paths needed.
*Scope for Seymour to run via rebuilt Albion-Jacana line on RRL
*Scope for SG tracks, more direct path into City for Albury/Sydney trains

I believe this option optimises the most solutions.
1. Ability to segregate all Metro traffic from VLine except Dandenong corridor (should have been done with CD9)
2. Provides Airport Rail with express path into city, Bendigo, Geelong and Gippsland trains would could all run via Airport (Ballarat and Seymour would need to change at Sunshine, hardly a diversion. Metro change at Flinders/Southern/Footscray/Sunshine which all trains would pass through).
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
A few points

1) Just because you run Bengio V/line V/lcities via airport doesn't mean it cannot be sparked

2) There is no guarantee the airport line would be sparked or needed to be sparked and wouldn't be the first not to be sparked.

3) 35mpa users of the airport, using Sydney and Brisbane as a bench mark, 20% ridership via train with similar fares to buses would be a reasonable projection of ridership, likely 25-30% due to distance within 10 years opening.

4) Why couldn't the airport line be run by private operation under franchise agreement? Melbourne commuter has been this way for nearly 20 years and both sides of govt are obviously happy with this arrangement.

5) Why couldn't the airport line be BOOT (Build Own Operate Transfer) as per Brisbane and NSW as it obviously works fine there after >15 years of operation. However the private sector will  be far more wary of this than the govt sector supporters.

Keep insisting for a high cost solution for rail to Tullamarine and Melbournites will be using bus for many years to come.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
No one wants smeg black smoke and fumes around them at an airport terminal.  It's the 21st century.
  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
No one wants smeg black smoke and fumes around them at an airport terminal.  It's the 21st century.
x31
You haven't walked on a airport tarmac have you? All I smell is Avgas?

Anyway, who said anything about running steam engines to the airport. I was referring DMU type operation for which Victoria is well versed.

Meanwhile at Toronto which is similar distance away from city running 20min, it seems to work quite well https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Pearson_Express no smoke there (note Tier 4 engines). Not saying it has to be DMU, but best lifecyle cost option needs to be considered, not just an automatic NO!

The above link makes an interesting read as Toronto and Tullamarine airports are very similar and city populations similar, even railway option wasn't too far from what is being considered for Melbourne. If anything Toronto is probably 10-15 years ahead of Melbourne in numbers.

In 2015 upon opening with fares originally at C$27.50 or C$19 on Presto Card, the new Airport link was a flop dropping to ~2000 people a day with a target of 7000 to break even on costs.

Fares later dropped to  C$12 and Presto C$9 and numbers are now around 10,000 to 11,000 a day, roughly 10% of airport users. So they have roughly doubled their revenue but still around 60% of breakeven.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
A few points

1) Just because you run Bengio V/line V/lcities via airport doesn't mean it cannot be sparked

RTT_Rules

Shane...time to clean your glasses or get a new keyboard...
  steve195 Train Controller

The Herald Sun are reporting that the feds are going to put up big $$ for a train line to the airport. Hopefully more details emerge soon.
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Probably via Maribyrnong:
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/malcolm-turnbull-pledges-5b-for-melbourne-airport-rail-link-20180411-p4z93a.html

So BG or SG? Provision for Bendigo Vline link to Clarkefield out the other side?
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
Probably via Maribyrnong:
https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/malcolm-turnbull-pledges-5b-for-melbourne-airport-rail-link-20180411-p4z93a.html

So BG or SG? Provision for Bendigo Vline link to Clarkefield out the other side?
Carnot
BG definitely
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Ohhh....QUICK...we better start ANOTHER Airport Rail link thread Exclamation

https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/malcolm-turnbull-pledges-5b-for-melbourne-airport-rail-link-20180411-p4z93a.html

Mike.
  footscrazy Station Master

Can I get my $50 now please??  Razz


Although, to be honest, I didn’t invisage Turnbull stealing Andrews’ thunder in this manner!

I figured there would be a big announcement by Daniel and Jacinta at Spencer St or the Airport.

No wonder the state government’s response has been so tepid.

The sceptic in me thinks that Malcolm got wind of the announcement and sent out a hurried last minute press release....
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Can I get my $50 now please??  Razz


Although, to be honest, I didn’t invisage Turnbull stealing Andrews’ thunder in this manner!

I figured there would be a big announcement by Daniel and Jacinta at Spencer St or the Airport.

No wonder the state government’s response has been so tepid.

The sceptic in me thinks that Malcolm got wind of the announcement and sent out a hurried last minute press release....
footscrazy

'Frankly my dear....I don't give a damn'

With apologies to Clark Gable.

Even though I'll be flying in to Melbourne tomorrow to make my way to Ballan...if time permits I'll be catching the 901 to Broadmeadows then spark to SCS on my Myki...if not, the Skybus will suit me fine.

Mike.
  Fatty Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
$5 billion from Feds if Victoria sells it's share in Snowy Hydro. I think you'll find that's why the state government is tepid on the offer.
  x31 Chief Commissioner

Location: gallifrey
$5 billion from Feds if Victoria sells it's share in Snowy Hydro. I think you'll find that's why the state government is tepid on the offer.
Fatty

For a moment I thought Turnbull was actually in touch with the electorate giving Victoria some money for a project which is desperately needed. But alas it comes with a condition.  

Still quite positive as even turnbull states the project is a productivity gain for the state. Victoria so far behind.
  footscrazy Station Master

$5 billion from Feds if Victoria sells it's share in Snowy Hydro. I think you'll find that's why the state government is tepid on the offer.
Fatty

Victoria & NSW have already sold their share of Snowy Hydro

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/malcolm-turnbull-buys-snowy-hydro-scheme-from-nsw-and-victoria-for-6-billion-20180301-p4z2e8.html

If I read it correctly they're now asking the Victorian government to spend their $2B from the sale on MARL.
Which renders this statement false:

While the proceeds must be spent on “productive infrastructure” that boosts the economy, there will be no conditions placed on the specific projects that are funded by the proceeds, leaving Victorian Premier Daniel Andrews and NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian with full scope to fast-track existing projects with the help of the new cash.

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