Work Starts To Get VLocity Trains For The North East Line

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 06 Aug 2018 10:40
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

.................................................................

Another problem with unpowered cars it reduces the flexibilty of the pool of sets and ones ends up with the problem of the Albury service, cancellations due to lack of sets.
woodford

A VLocity buffet trailer (TR) will be limited to use amongst the long-haul fleet. Transferring a spare TR between gauges would be slightly easier with a non-powered version, ie changing 2 non-powered bogies rather than 1 powered and 1 non-powered.

A 4-car configuration (DM – TM – TR – DM) with a non-powered TR and an engine failure in one of the other cars would still have approximately the same power-to-weight ratio as an N + N-set. A 5-car configuration (DM – TM – TR – TM – DM) would cope better.

(DM, etc is VicSig nomenclature.)

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  simstrain Chief Commissioner

So is it overweight or poorly designed?
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Neither.
  jakar Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Weight is not an issue.
Woodford

The weight itself may not be, but stopping distances in a worst case scenario certainly are.

No Vline train on normal service uses its braking system to anything like its maximum capacity. Calculatons based on normal service stopping distances shows an N class and N set only uses 40% of its braking capacity and the Vlocity's around 50 to 60%.
Woodford
I'm sorry but these are pretty meaningless figures (particularly if you have based the percentages off emergency stop distances as opposed to regular full service application stopping distances) as they don't take into consideration any of the many variables associated with bringing a train to a stop at a platform. I can assure you that myself and many/most others regularly use full service (maximum braking capacity) to bring the train speed down to a safe and manageable level for platforms, speed changes, TSR's etc. No driver should be using a braking marker that requires one full service application to bring the train to a stand at a platform as it does not allow for any margin of error, plus loco's are 'meant' to be down to 25km/h when entering a platform they're stopping at.

will shut down automaticly after a certain time (I thinks its around 10 minutes). The engines will automaticly start as soon as the driver moves the throttle.
Woodford
20 minutes, and restart when the reverser is centered, not the throttle.

The sprinters power system consists of a variable speed altenator driven from EACH engine, these supplly a rectifier, that charges the cars main battery which in turn supplies a 415 volt 3 phase convertor. There is no backup units for the rectifier and convertor but these industrial units are built like battleships and are bullet proof.
Woodford
Close. Each engine/alternator feeds its own rectifier/static inverter. Only one alternator/rectifier is used at a time (there is a change over switch in the number 1 end cab) so there is a backup of that component. From the rectifier power is fed to the battery charger which converts the 415v three phase to 24-28v dc to charge to batteries which in turn supply some low voltage components. Power from the rectifiers also supplies several transformers which convert the 415v into 240v, 110v, 65v, and 21v ac for various other components and functions.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

Weight is not an issue.

The weight itself may not be, but stopping distances in a worst case scenario certainly are.

No Vline train on normal service uses its braking system to anything like its maximum capacity. Calculatons based on normal service stopping distances shows an N class and N set only uses 40% of its braking capacity and the Vlocity's around 50 to 60%.
I'm sorry but these are pretty meaningless figures (particularly if you have based the percentages off emergency stop distances as opposed to regular full service application stopping distances) as they don't take into consideration any of the many variables associated with bringing a train to a stop at a platform. I can assure you that myself and many/most others regularly use full service (maximum braking capacity) to bring the train speed down to a safe and manageable level for platforms, speed changes, TSR's etc. No driver should be using a braking marker that requires one full service application to bring the train to a stand at a platform as it does not allow for any margin of error, plus loco's are 'meant' to be down to 25km/h when entering a platform they're stopping at.

will shut down automaticly after a certain time (I thinks its around 10 minutes). The engines will automaticly start as soon as the driver moves the throttle.
20 minutes, and restart when the reverser is centered, not the throttle.

The sprinters power system consists of a variable speed altenator driven from EACH engine, these supplly a rectifier, that charges the cars main battery which in turn supplies a 415 volt 3 phase convertor. There is no backup units for the rectifier and convertor but these industrial units are built like battleships and are bullet proof.
Close. Each engine/alternator feeds its own rectifier/static inverter. Only one alternator/rectifier is used at a time (there is a change over switch in the number 1 end cab) so there is a backup of that component. From the rectifier power is fed to the battery charger which converts the 415v three phase to 24-28v dc to charge to batteries which in turn supply some low voltage components. Power from the rectifiers also supplies several transformers which convert the 415v into 240v, 110v, 65v, and 21v ac for various other components and functions.
jakar
I have based these figures on observations taken on the Albury line. The percentage figures is the stopping distance actually used compared to the emergency stopping distance. For actual braking applications the depth of the braking has been taken from a single consist used on the Shepparton service. There is a pressure gauge in its car4 which is on the Brake line (not the reservior as is usual) and with that one can see exactly what the drivers is doing. Pressure drops shows the drivers were using significantly less Than full braking.

The idea behind describing the Sprinters power system was to show its probably little difference in weight to an auxilary power unit. It is more redundant though.

woodford
  jakar Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
and with that one can see exactly what the drivers is doing.
Woodford

Actually no, you can't. All you can see is what the brake pipe pressure is on the carriages. You don't know if the driver has bailed off (released the loco's brakes), or is using the dynamic brake, or has fed a bit of independent brake on with the dyno, or is stretch braking, and so on.


Pressure drops shows the drivers were using significantly less Than full braking.
Woodford
What pressures were you seeing that were 'significantly less'? A normal fully charged brake pipe is at 500kpa, a full service application is only a 150kpa reduction so you should see 350kpa in the brake pipe when the brakes are on as hard as they can go.

There is a pressure gauge in its car4 which is on the Brake line (not the reservior as is usual
Woodford
The brake pipe is usually what is shown as that is the critical pressure, what ever the brake pipe is the auxiliary reservoir will also be (down to an equalising application).

*Apologies to everyone for going waaay off topic
  NimbleJack Station Staff

There is a pressure gauge in its car4 which is on the Brake line (not the reservior as is usual) and with that one can see exactly what the drivers is doing. Pressure drops shows the drivers were using significantly less Than full braking.
woodford

"When I fly in a plane, I peek out the window and watch the flaps wiggle. I can therefore tell exactly what the pilot is doing."

Are there gauges in car 4 showing how many amps the dyno is pulling and how much pressure is in the loco brake cylinders, as well as the current track gradient? Might there also be a fold-out diagram explaining triple-valve operation illustrated by no less than Roald Dahl? I always forget to look for these things.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

and with that one can see exactly what the drivers is doing.

Actually no, you can't. All you can see is what the brake pipe pressure is on the carriages. You don't know if the driver has bailed off (released the loco's brakes), or is using the dynamic brake, or has fed a bit of independent brake on with the dyno, or is stretch braking, and so on.


Pressure drops shows the drivers were using significantly less Than full braking.
What pressures were you seeing that were 'significantly less'? A normal fully charged brake pipe is at 500kpa, a full service application is only a 150kpa reduction so you should see 350kpa in the brake pipe when the brakes are on as hard as they can go.

There is a pressure gauge in its car4 which is on the Brake line (not the reservior as is usual
The brake pipe is usually what is shown as that is the critical pressure, what ever the brake pipe is the auxiliary reservoir will also be (down to an equalising application).

*Apologies to everyone for going waaay off topic
jakar
While one cannot tell everything the driver is doing one can deduce a good deal by LISTENING. One can clearly hear in N class under dynamic braking even in car 4.

The stopping distance of N class loco under FULL braking from 115kph is aprox 520 metres.
Drivers on the Albury line normaly start braking at around 1000 metres from the station, so only 50% of the sets braking capabilty is being used, no matter what the brake pressures.

Warning: To be fair I have put this latter to see your response. I CAN prove this by simple physics.

Note: In case its not obvious I have a great respect for drivers, for those that drive road vehicles driving any loco (I have driven 3 steamers an NA, a K and a SAR W class) is a REAL challenge.

Note  2: The W class was a REAL eye opener, it had just been rebuilt from the ground up, first I was required to baby sit it (in steam) for a couple of hours while the workshop staff did something else at another location. Then I got to drive it most of the way to Smokers Creek bridge (at the time the track ended there). It wanted to REALLY take off, one click (a sixth of a turn on the valve gear) and it would leap forward, no wonder steamers create such a passion in people.

woodford
  NimbleJack Station Staff

"The stopping distance of N class loco under FULL braking from 115kph is aprox 520 metres. Drivers on the Albury line normaly start braking at around 1000 metres from the station, so only 50% of the sets braking capabilty is being used, no matter what the brake pressures."
Reading this is...painful. I guess it just demonstrates that enthusiasm for things that go choo-choo doesn't necessarily translate into technical understanding.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
and with that one can see exactly what the drivers is doing.

Actually no, you can't. All you can see is what the brake pipe pressure is on the carriages. You don't know if the driver has bailed off (released the loco's brakes), or is using the dynamic brake, or has fed a bit of independent brake on with the dyno, or is stretch braking, and so on.


Pressure drops shows the drivers were using significantly less Than full braking.
What pressures were you seeing that were 'significantly less'? A normal fully charged brake pipe is at 500kpa, a full service application is only a 150kpa reduction so you should see 350kpa in the brake pipe when the brakes are on as hard as they can go.

There is a pressure gauge in its car4 which is on the Brake line (not the reservior as is usual
The brake pipe is usually what is shown as that is the critical pressure, what ever the brake pipe is the auxiliary reservoir will also be (down to an equalising application).

*Apologies to everyone for going waaay off topic
While one cannot tell everything the driver is doing one can deduce a good deal by LISTENING. One can clearly hear in N class under dynamic braking even in car 4.

The stopping distance of N class loco under FULL braking from 115kph is aprox 520 metres.
Drivers on the Albury line normaly start braking at around 1000 metres from the station, so only 50% of the sets braking capabilty is being used, no matter what the brake pressures.

Warning: To be fair I have put this latter to see your response. I CAN prove this by simple physics.

Note: In case its not obvious I have a great respect for drivers, for those that drive road vehicles driving any loco (I have driven 3 steamers an NA, a K and a SAR W class) is a REAL challenge.

Note  2: The W class was a REAL eye opener, it had just been rebuilt from the ground up, first I was required to baby sit it (in steam) for a couple of hours while the workshop staff did something else at another location. Then I got to drive it most of the way to Smokers Creek bridge (at the time the track ended there). It wanted to REALLY take off, one click (a sixth of a turn on the valve gear) and it would leap forward, no wonder steamers create such a passion in people.

woodford
woodford
I presume you mean the now deactivated W53 in pin creek
  hbedriver Chief Train Controller

I suspect Woodford’s W was an ex-WAGR one; I don’t think any SAR W is left apart from a Wx in pieces at Quorn

As to braking of trains, as a regular driver on Albury line, I am flattered that braking for the first km or so is imperceptible in the cars. Any driver on an N set at line speed leaving brakes to the last 500m is braver than I. And probably has a worse history card than me as well!
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
I suspect Woodford’s W was an ex-WAGR one; I don’t think any SAR W is left apart from a Wx in pieces at Quorn

As to braking of trains, as a regular driver on Albury line, I am flattered that braking for the first km or so is imperceptible in the cars. Any driver on an N set at line speed leaving brakes to the last 500m is braver than I. And probably has a worse history card than me as well!
hbedriver
there's a CR one that was operational in pine creek
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

I suspect Woodford’s W was an ex-WAGR one; I don’t think any SAR W is left apart from a Wx in pieces at Quorn

As to braking of trains, as a regular driver on Albury line, I am flattered that braking for the first km or so is imperceptible in the cars. Any driver on an N set at line speed leaving brakes to the last 500m is braver than I. And probably has a worse history card than me as well!
there's a CR one that was operational in pine creek
Dangersdan707
Which was SAR W 53.
  jakar Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
one can deduce a good deal by LISTENING. One can clearly hear in N class under dynamic braking even in car 4.

Woodford
An increase in engine revs occurs when the dynamic brake is moved from setup into notch 1 (even when the loco is stationary) and gives no indication of what notch its in or how many amps its pulling.

Drivers on the Albury line normaly start braking at around 1000 metres from the station, so only 50% of the sets braking capabilty is being used, no matter what the brake pressures.
Woodford
And until you understand and factor in why drivers use 1000 metres or thereabouts and don't have the train in full service from first application to coming to a complete stop at a platform your figures about braking capability usage in running are meaningless.

Which brings me back to your intial comments of

Weight is not an issue.No Vline train on normal service uses its braking system to anything like its maximum capacity.
Woodford
which you said in reply to me saying the new overweight vlo's were failing their braking tests. What exactly are you trying to imply here? Are you saying that it doesn't/shouldn't matter that they're failing because in normal running no train has its brakes fully on from application to stopping at a station? I can assure you that if i have a signal with minimal sighting distance go back to red on me I want my train to be able to pull up as per the specifications of that vehicle.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I wonder if the ARTC will use a track laying machine like in this photo for the north east. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2290116961206460&set=pcb.3206084016084056&type=3&theater
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

In all the hoo-ha about the Budget, I don't think it was mentioned on here that the Public Transport Minister said the following on Facebook:

"Albury passengers – get ready for new VLocity trains which will deliver a smoother, more comfortable journey.

As part of the 19/20 Budget, we'll be able to place the first order for new VLocity trains that will help meet the increasing demand on our regional network.

They’ll also be made right here in Victoria – boosting manufacturing and supply jobs across our State."

Now the last previously committed order is expected for delivery in late 2022 by my recollection, so that presumably means we'll see the first VLos to the North East in 2023-ish, unless they shuffle things around to deliver some long haul sets for the election.

So much for phasing out N classes by 2022!
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Allowing for the latest batch of mudholes as a result of all this rain, it will probably be just as well.

Mike.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Taking the Albury passengers issues past the what 10 year mark without delivering a solution or could it be longer?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Taking the Albury passengers issues past the what 10 year mark without delivering a solution or could it be longer?
bevans

Travelling in the N cars isn't quite like travelling by train in a third world country.

https://images.app.goo.gl/uZ1sreCCAeGxWMfy9

The N cars are still the mainstay of V/Line's long distance fleet


Mike.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Agree Mike, I was more considering the constant announcements by the Andrew's Government to fix the service unless of course we are saying the service is not fine?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Agree Mike, I was more considering the constant announcements by the Andrew's Government to fix the service unless of course we are saying the service is not fine?
bevans
  • The service is pretty bad, even by V/Line’s standards, from a cancellation perspective.
  • It is quite adequate from a passenger comfort perspective.
  • The total contribution of $440 million from state and federal governments is not enough to permanently “fix” the track but is probably enough to bring it up to Class 2 standard for the time being.
  • The new VLocities will significantly improve the service reliability given how many at present are due to loco faults, but they will still have all the woes of an isolated fleet.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Wont the track issues just now manifest in the vlocity fleet when they begin running?

Why can;t the track be maintained to class 2 standard which is what I think V/Line do for other routes like Bendigo?
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

Wont the track issues just now manifest in the vlocity fleet when they begin running?

Why can;t the track be maintained to class 2 standard which is what I think V/Line do for other routes like Bendigo?
bevans
I have no idea what you mean about track issues manifesting in trains.

The line is currently not at a class 2 standard and therefore it requires capital investment to meet that. However, the underlying formation of the track is of such poor quality it will be difficult to maintain.

Bendigo is Class 1 on one track and Class 2 on the other for most of the route.
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

one can deduce a good deal by LISTENING. One can clearly hear in N class under dynamic braking even in car 4.

An increase in engine revs occurs when the dynamic brake is moved from setup into notch 1 (even when the loco is stationary) and gives no indication of what notch its in or how many amps its pulling.

Drivers on the Albury line normaly start braking at around 1000 metres from the station, so only 50% of the sets braking capabilty is being used, no matter what the brake pressures.
And until you understand and factor in why drivers use 1000 metres or thereabouts and don't have the train in full service from first application to coming to a complete stop at a platform your figures about braking capability usage in running are meaningless.

Which brings me back to your intial comments of

Weight is not an issue.No Vline train on normal service uses its braking system to anything like its maximum capacity.
which you said in reply to me saying the new overweight vlo's were failing their braking tests. What exactly are you trying to imply here? Are you saying that it doesn't/shouldn't matter that they're failing because in normal running no train has its brakes fully on from application to stopping at a station? I can assure you that if i have a signal with minimal sighting distance go back to red on me I want my train to be able to pull up as per the specifications of that vehicle.
jakar
I don't think this post is appropriate; did you feel you had to get in the last word? It's not as if Lindsay is in a position to reply to this
  jakar Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
I don't think this post is appropriate; did you feel you had to get in the last word? It's not as if Lindsay is in a position to reply to this
Lockspike
Before making such comments Lockspike its wise to check the facts first. Woodford/Lindsay was still actively posting at the time of my post and afterwards but chose not to respond for reasons only known to himself. So no Lockpsike, I was not trying to get in the last word. Any other insensitive comments you'd like to make?

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