Work Starts To Get VLocity Trains For The North East Line

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 06 Aug 2018 10:40
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
So presumably the new bogie will be both BG and SG, which makes the press release even more confusing.
Bogie frame made to take either BG or SG wheel sets with spacing options for brake gear, etc.???
As the current bogie is.
kitchgp
As it always should have been.
Heaps of BG freight and loco bogie frames have been built to take push in wheelsets and SG brake hangers for years and the Vlocity bogies SHOULD have been built the same way.

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  woodford Chief Commissioner

Possibly the current bogies were tested on SG in England when they were being developed.
If this is the case, it may provide a head start for approval purposes.
Lockspike
Any railway gear built in Britain will build these items to the current standards for both Britain and Europe, this makes it VASTLY easier to get the items approved as the manufacturer has ALREADY has had there process's and materials approved.

The main reason the AI locomotive trust had the Tornado's boiler built in East Germany is that they were the only manufacturers that were designing and building boilers to modern standards as a consequence there process's and materials used had already been checked as meeting current European and therefore  British standards.

woodford
  woodford Chief Commissioner

In case anyone is wondering, you cannot just construct an  item from scratch and sell it as railway equipment. All such gear designed as railway equipment MUST follow the standards AND be PROVEN to follow all specs AND proved to be reliable.

This of course takes time AND costs a substantial amount of money.

VLine and the government are not just being "picky" they HAVE to follow the rules as everyone else in railway land does.

woodford
  kitchgp Chief Commissioner

Pure speculation. Perhaps the new bogie would be better described as a non-RFR bogie rather than a standard-gauge bogie. The link below is to Monash University’s ‘VLocity Wheel Wear Investigation for V/Line Pty Ltd’ report. Page 59 (Adobe Page 69) summarises the difference between the Sprinter and VLocity bogie, the latter optimised for the milder curves of the RFR. Perhaps the new bogies are being designed for the tighter curves of off-RFR work, so to speak. The new bogies may be limited to 130 kph (slightly shorter wheelbase?), although if the refreshment-module trailers are non-powered, this won’t be much of a limitation. The table below shows the total distance, the RFR distance and the percentage of RFR for the routes the new VLocitys will operate on. It remains to be seen if the new bogies are SG only or used on both gauges. Hopefully they can be used under current VLocitys for SG Ballarat – Maryborough and Ballarat – Horsham. Again, all this is pure speculation.


https://corporate.vline.com.au/getattachment/News-Alerts/Media-Releases/Release-of-report-into-VLocity-wheel-wear-(1)/Monash-IRT-Report-April-2016.pdf


Dest                   Dist (km)     RFR (Km)     RFR (%)    TrPW
Albury (SG)                305                   0                   0          42
Bairnsdale                  275              100                 36          40
Swan Hill                    345              160                 46          28
Warrnambool             275                80                 29          52
Shepparton                 182                 0                    0          52

Total                          1382             340                  25

Note: Melbourne - Echuca is 250 km (for another thread).

TrPW = Trains per Week
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
I would like to make a Smart smeg Simstrainese Comment stating that its the fault of converting these lines 10 years ago to standard gauge, Rather that political stupidity.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I would like to make a Smart smeg Simstrainese Comment stating that its the fault of converting these lines 10 years ago to standard gauge, Rather that political stupidity.
Dangersdan707
I must admit I cannot make any sense about this comment................. I always wait a bit of time and then re read my posts to see if they say what I want them to say. For this post I will make some assumptions, always a dangerous practice when searching for the truth.

The RFR project WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DONE if it had been done to Standard Gauge, getting the lines in to Southern Cross and the major rearrangement that would have been required at that station would have soaked up WAY more funds than the government had availible.

I think there is no way that the RFR project can be called political stupity, while it could have been done better, it on the whole has been a great success.

Note: Its taken me 30 minutes so far actually to write this post.............final writing time will be around 45 minutes. There always corrections to made after it has been posted to the forums.

woodford
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
I would like to make a Smart smeg Simstrainese Comment stating that its the fault of converting these lines 10 years ago to standard gauge, Rather that political stupidity.
I must admit I cannot make any sense about this comment................. I always wait a bit of time and then re read my posts to see if they say what I want them to say. For this post I will make some assumptions, always a dangerous practice when searching for the truth.

The RFR project WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DONE if it had been done to Standard Gauge, getting the lines in to Southern Cross and the major rearrangement that would have been required at that station would have soaked up WAY more funds than the government had availible.

I think there is no way that the RFR project can be called political stupity, while it could have been done better, it on the whole has been a great success.

Note: Its taken me 30 minutes so far actually to write this post.............final writing time will be around 45 minutes. There always corrections to made after it has been posted to the forums.

woodford
woodford
Allow me to rephrase what i meant to say, The North East Broad Gauge Should have been upgraded to near RFR tier, Instead of being converted to SG. I am not Calling the RFR Political stupidity, I am calling the apparent 'No SG' Bogies for Velocities Political stupidity. I did not know you that you spend that long creating these lovely posts that are always appreciated. (this took me around 2 minutes)
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I would like to make a Smart smeg Simstrainese Comment stating that its the fault of converting these lines 10 years ago to standard gauge, Rather that political stupidity.
I must admit I cannot make any sense about this comment................. I always wait a bit of time and then re read my posts to see if they say what I want them to say. For this post I will make some assumptions, always a dangerous practice when searching for the truth.

The RFR project WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DONE if it had been done to Standard Gauge, getting the lines in to Southern Cross and the major rearrangement that would have been required at that station would have soaked up WAY more funds than the government had availible.

I think there is no way that the RFR project can be called political stupity, while it could have been done better, it on the whole has been a great success.

Note: Its taken me 30 minutes so far actually to write this post.............final writing time will be around 45 minutes. There always corrections to made after it has been posted to the forums.

woodford
Allow me to rephrase what i meant to say, The North East Broad Gauge Should have been upgraded to near RFR tier, Instead of being converted to SG. I am not Calling the RFR Political stupidity, I am calling the apparent 'No SG' Bogies for Velocities Political stupidity. I did not know you that you spend that long creating these lovely posts that are always appreciated. (this took me around 2 minutes)
Dangersdan707
Its very difficult to write a clear and accurate post on a technical subject, it would take me something like 2 to 3 hours to write 300 word post. I have discussed this with two people that write technical  articles in magazines and they said that was quite typical.

The likely reason that the NE line was not included in the RFR project is the cost of straightening out the line between Wallan and Seymour would have cost more funds than was availible for all work on the other 4 lines. Even then the grades would have seriously restricted top speeds, as well as that the line regularly saw speeds of 130kph with a fairly close station spacing. so there would have been little improvement in times.

On the VLocity's, building anything even remotely complex and then getting it to work correctly is a VERY VERY VERY difficult task. It appears to be clear that the VLocity's are based on a European Bombardier design, but modified for use in Victoria. Modifyiing such a machine is again a real tough task, as a lot of components/system interact with one another often in complex ways. A VLocity's axle is likely to have 2 heavy duty bearings, 2 wheels, 2 brake disks and a "dropped"bevel gear gear box capable of taking 800bhp. All this has to be packed into a small space and work with the rest of the systems on the vehicle. Changing anything is likely to have a "snow ball" effect on the vehicle.


woodford
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I would like to make a Smart smeg Simstrainese Comment stating that its the fault of converting these lines 10 years ago to standard gauge, Rather that political stupidity.
I must admit I cannot make any sense about this comment................. I always wait a bit of time and then re read my posts to see if they say what I want them to say. For this post I will make some assumptions, always a dangerous practice when searching for the truth.

The RFR project WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DONE if it had been done to Standard Gauge, getting the lines in to Southern Cross and the major rearrangement that would have been required at that station would have soaked up WAY more funds than the government had availible.

I think there is no way that the RFR project can be called political stupity, while it could have been done better, it on the whole has been a great success.

Note: Its taken me 30 minutes so far actually to write this post.............final writing time will be around 45 minutes. There always corrections to made after it has been posted to the forums.

woodford
Allow me to rephrase what i meant to say, The North East Broad Gauge Should have been upgraded to near RFR tier, Instead of being converted to SG. I am not Calling the RFR Political stupidity, I am calling the apparent 'No SG' Bogies for Velocities Political stupidity. I did not know you that you spend that long creating these lovely posts that are always appreciated. (this took me around 2 minutes)
Dangersdan707

I believe if the NE SG is ever sorted out it will become Class 2 track. So that will be good for 130Km/h. The only thing stopping it from becoming Class 1 track and 160Km/h is the absence of Train Protection Warning System (TPWS).

That took about a minute and a half.

Mike.
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I would like to make a Smart smeg Simstrainese Comment stating that its the fault of converting these lines 10 years ago to standard gauge, Rather that political stupidity.
I must admit I cannot make any sense about this comment................. I always wait a bit of time and then re read my posts to see if they say what I want them to say. For this post I will make some assumptions, always a dangerous practice when searching for the truth.

The RFR project WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DONE if it had been done to Standard Gauge, getting the lines in to Southern Cross and the major rearrangement that would have been required at that station would have soaked up WAY more funds than the government had availible.

I think there is no way that the RFR project can be called political stupity, while it could have been done better, it on the whole has been a great success.

Note: Its taken me 30 minutes so far actually to write this post.............final writing time will be around 45 minutes. There always corrections to made after it has been posted to the forums.

woodford
Allow me to rephrase what i meant to say, The North East Broad Gauge Should have been upgraded to near RFR tier, Instead of being converted to SG. I am not Calling the RFR Political stupidity, I am calling the apparent 'No SG' Bogies for Velocities Political stupidity. I did not know you that you spend that long creating these lovely posts that are always appreciated. (this took me around 2 minutes)

I believe if the NE SG is ever sorted out it will become Class 2 track. So that will be good for 130Km/h. The only thing stopping it from becoming Class 1 track and 160Km/h is the absence of Train Protection Warning System (TPWS).

That took about a minute and a half.

Mike.
The Vinelander

There' a reasonable number of curves partiularly north of Euroa that will need to straightened out to alllow 160kph running. Also the signal spacing and level crossing detection systems have been laid out for 130kph operation.

A single sentence post only contains a single idea, a 300 word post will contain something like 50 ideas, this makes longer posts much more difficult to be made so the it cannot be missinturpreted.

woodford
  potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

There' a reasonable number of curves partiularly north of Euroa that will need to straightened out to alllow 160kph running. Also the signal spacing and level crossing detection systems have been laid out for 130kph operation.
woodford

If you two are going to get into the “can you do 160 on the NE?” argument again I might go have a Bex and a good lie down.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I can't believe that I sort of have to agree with dangersdan on this one. I would have preferred that vline upgraded the old crap western BG NE line to allow vlocities to Wodonga or Albury at up to 160km/h. The ARTC could then duplicate and rebuild the eastern SG track with ARTC signaling for freight and the XPT wouldn't need to stop anywhere in Victoria.
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
I can't believe that I sort of have to agree with dangersdan on this one. I would have preferred that vline upgraded the old crap western BG NE line to allow vlocities to Wodonga or Albury at up to 160km/h. The ARTC could then duplicate and rebuild the eastern SG track with ARTC signaling for freight and the XPT wouldn't need to stop anywhere in Victoria.
simstrain
What about Melbourne?
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I can't believe that I sort of have to agree with dangersdan on this one. I would have preferred that vline upgraded the old crap western BG NE line to allow vlocities to Wodonga or Albury at up to 160km/h. The ARTC could then duplicate and rebuild the eastern SG track with ARTC signaling for freight and the XPT wouldn't need to stop anywhere in Victoria.
What about Melbourne?
Dangersdan707

just go back to the old ways of all out all change at albury!!! but seriously, just southern cross should be fine as the only stop in Victoria.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
I can't believe that I sort of have to agree with dangersdan on this one. I would have preferred that vline upgraded the old crap western BG NE line to allow vlocities to Wodonga or Albury at up to 160km/h. The ARTC could then duplicate and rebuild the eastern SG track with ARTC signaling for freight and the XPT wouldn't need to stop anywhere in Victoria.
What about Melbourne?

just go back to the old ways of all out all change at albury!!! but seriously, just southern cross should be fine as the only stop in Victoria.
simstrain

Despite the higher fares, the XPT actually has a timetable niche in Victoria, particularly on the UP.

https://www.vline.com.au/getattachment/90b9a59e-f637-4c36-973c-02e404ba4266/Albury-Wodonga-Melbourne-(via-Wangaratta,-Bena-(1)

Mike.
  rokaifly Station Master

The XPT is $33.45 one way from Albury to Melbourne

Vline is $39.40 one way Albury to Melbourne
  Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

If you two are going to get into the “can you do 160 on the NE?” argument again I might go have a Bex and a good lie down.
potatoinmymouth
I'm too young to know what a Bex is, (I wish)!
  woodford Chief Commissioner

I can't believe that I sort of have to agree with dangersdan on this one. I would have preferred that vline upgraded the old crap western BG NE line to allow vlocities to Wodonga or Albury at up to 160km/h. The ARTC could then duplicate and rebuild the eastern SG track with ARTC signaling for freight and the XPT wouldn't need to stop anywhere in Victoria.
simstrain
That was NEVER going to happen, the reason why the old BG was in such poor condition is that Vline were expecting at anytime that ARTC would lease the track and regauge it, so  doing any maintence would be throwing money away. Note at The same time the WERE maintaining the Oaklands line (Note 1) to a MUCH better standard, doing some sleeper cycles and lubritcating the points along the line.

Note 1: As the were expecting to maintain control of the Oakland's line, which they did.

woodford
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
The XPT is $33.45 one way from Albury to Melbourne

Vline is $39.40 one way Albury to Melbourne
rokaifly

Hmm...my bad, it used to be the other way around.

So I thought I'd check 1st as well as I only travel 1st class.

Train Link First class one way fare - $45.00

V/Line First class one way fare - $47.80.

So, I'm happy to be corrected on that score...Surprised

Mike.
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
If you two are going to get into the “can you do 160 on the NE?” argument again I might go have a Bex and a good lie down.
I'm too young to know what a Bex is, (I wish)!
Lockspike

We'll soon sort that out...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF6ffbz70SY

M.
  ParkesHub Chief Commissioner

What you want is an APC powder. Aspirin, Phenacitin and Codeine. One of those and you won't care about railways....or anything else!
  woodford Chief Commissioner
  justarider Chief Train Controller

Location: Stuck on VR and hoping for better.
The thing about certifying a SG version of Vlo is why only for the NE line?

Once vline has a decent SG passenger rolling stock, what about the other lines.
Include planning for return of services to
Ararat/Maryborough
Ararat/Geelong (not just the Tuesday only Overland)
Ararat/Horsham (ditto Overland)
Ararat/Portland
Ballarat/Mildura

Maybe not straight away, but need plan to include, not exclude.

cheers
John
  Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

Location: On a Thing with Internet
The thing about certifying a SG version of Vlo is why only for the NE line?

Once vline has a decent SG passenger rolling stock, what about the other lines.
Include planning for return of services to
Ararat/Maryborough
Ararat/Geelong (not just the Tuesday only Overland)
Ararat/Horsham (ditto Overland)
Ararat/Portland
Ballarat/Mildura

Maybe not straight away, but need plan to include, not exclude.

cheers
John
You've Opened The Can Of Worms Now, Oaklands-Melbourne, Mt Gambia-Melbourn, Servicton-Melbourne Ararat- Leigh Creek Melbourne to Jakarta (since the Recent Tunnel thread) Melbourne to Hobart on 3 Gauges!
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
The thing about certifying a SG version of Vlo is why only for the NE line?

Once vline has a decent SG passenger rolling stock, what about the other lines.
Include planning for return of services to
Ararat/Maryborough
Ararat/Geelong (not just the Tuesday only Overland)
Ararat/Horsham (ditto Overland)
Ararat/Portland
Ballarat/Mildura

Maybe not straight away, but need plan to include, not exclude.

cheers
John
justarider
Simple. Victoria ONLY thinks BG. Is there any other?
Back in the 1920s the X and N classes were designed as theoretically convertible to SG versions of the C and K classes. Since then the R and J classes were at least partially designed with possible conversion in mind. Here we are the best part of 100 years later having reverted to designing BG equipment only.
I don't know the ancestry of the Vlocity design but have to wonder if there are not some filthy rotten SG genes in there somewhere.
How the Vlocity bogies were designed as BG only reflects sheer BG arrogance, shortsightedness or just plain stupidity.

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