Work Starts To Get VLocity Trains For The North East Line

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 06 Aug 2018 10:40
  Carnot Minister for Railways

Saw this video overnight that was taken by a fireman at Benalla:
https://www.facebook.com/jet204/videos/10157989410035792/
That's a rough riding loco or that's and older video. I did it at 110 km/hr last week and it wasn't nearly that rough.
Fatty
It's apparently in the cab of an RL loco doing 80 km/h.  I've also seen some photos near Chiltern that show the track in horrendous condition.

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  skitz Chief Commissioner

There's masses of work being done at the moment so things are changing but but Seymour to Benalla on the West is the worst in my opinion, especially around Avenel. The East from Wangaratta to Albury is probably the best.

Much appreciate the feedback.

I notice the video showed the east line heading south from Wodonga as i could see the SCT vans to the right.  What is causing the rough riding or has this now been addressed?

Do ARTC have enough crews working the line?

The East from Wodonga to Wangaratta has been reballasted, bridges replaced and had track machines running over it for the last couple of weeks. The work is being done by John Holland.

In my opinion ARTC do not have enough crews working the line.
Fatty
There is a wheel rail interface issue that has been there all along.  To be verified of course.  Ten minutes with the gauges will do that but the action of the loco is classic hunting/instability.  Has all the hall marks of tight gauge and incompatible wheel/rail profiles.  New sleepers (has happened before that they come tight), wrong biscuits/spacers, over square rail profile, incorrectly referenced tangent profile, wheels are worn unusually on that particular loco.

This is but one engine, what engine class was it by the way?   Do others behave this way?  Every now an then rolling stock will wear its wheels in an unusual way due to their traffic pattern.   What would be looked at on this loco is the lack of wear and why on the throat of the gauge corner and why.   High conicity = hunting.

No amount of tamping or ballasting will fix this issue no matter how ell it may make you feel.   The root causes must be addressed.

I recall an example of a train being subject to unique wheel wear, it was run by ASR doing the Adelaide to Melbourne Patricks run.  That's all the wagons did, so were subject to a high proportion of time in the Adelaide Hills, were set up for high speed (read very stiff steering) but were also not in good repair (bolster spring pack wear).  The Titanic had better steering characteristics.  Throw in some superelevation and lubrication issues and it resulted in unusual wear in the top of the flange to wear to a point, not the rounded shape we would all know.   The result of the wear was a grey point so far as train examination went.  The wheels were stuffed, yet met the flange wear limit where it was measured.   So why was it a problem?  It resulted in incompatibility with a vital piece of track - dual gauge splitters.  There was two derailments that I know of directly caused by this, one at Nth Geelong and the other at Sims street.    But I digress, goes to show how a combination of events contribute to the point of incident but happened to be this one train captive to that traffic and what can happen.
  NSWGR8022 Deputy Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
A rather cute video of the north east with vlocity sets running meaning the marketing has started

  NSWGR8022 Deputy Commissioner

Location: From the lands of Journalism and Free Speech
The Boarder Rail Action Group not happy about the new velocity designs. https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/border-rail-action-group-says-no-to-extra-wheelchair-spaces-on-trains not much to see mu the thoguth is too many wheel chair spaces.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The Boarder Rail Action Group not happy about the new velocity designs. https://www.railpage.com.au/news/s/border-rail-action-group-says-no-to-extra-wheelchair-spaces-on-trains not much to see mu the thoguth is too many wheel chair spaces.
NSWGR8022

Discussion coming over from another thread specifically about the wheel chair access. The question is why the need for so many spaces?  I thought this too unless they have just copied the standard design for wheelchair spaces on the velocity fleet?

With regard to even metro changes to their rolling stock for wheel chair access prior to the corona virus issues and self isolation I have never seen the space used by anyone in a wheel chair on 2 trips per day.  On that basis perhaps 1 or 2 spaces Max would have been sufficient?

There is also a comment about more carriages raising the question what will be the standard lengths for Albury services?

I have another question in relation to the post above.  The department of transport states the new design will be more comfortable but are the seats being changed in any way in terms of comfort level?
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Perhaps one day in the future the general travelers will be able to file a lawsuit for being discriminated against, just like what Katty Bull did for the disabled late last century.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Perhaps one day in the future the general travelers will be able to file a lawsuit for being discriminated against, just like what Katty Bull did for the disabled late last century.
route14

Exactly how are general travellers being discriminated against? How about adding carriages to overcome a seat shortage instead.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Asked above how many cars are planned for each service with the new design?
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Here is another problem, the weather for winter.

Go to the link below, then look at the three month rainfall outlook from June to August.

You will see the BOM is predicting a total of at least 300mm of rain in a line from Melbourne to Canberra. Some of this rainfall corridor lines up with the NESG line.

http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/outlooks/#/rainfall/total/75/seasonal/0

Mudholes any one?
  kuldalai Chief Commissioner

Asked above how many cars are planned for each service with the new design?
bevans
BRAG reckons most services will be double consists , crazy when a four car set seating 240 would be more than enough on most trips.  Running double consists will result in wasting $ millions in unnecessary opex each year by continued refusal of the whizkids in DOT to introduce a mix of 3 & 4 car sets to the VLP operation.

DC involves extra cost to staff two buffets or buffets in two sets will only be open half the trip. Also pax can't move between the two sets except at stations.  Just crazy.

Wheelchair spaces - originally the DDA requirement was to provide two wheelchair spaces for each train irrespective of length.  So 6 for a three car set seems a bit over the top, and 12 for a DC well thts way over the top of observed normal utilization of wheelcahir spaces per trip.???

Some people in the transport bureaucracies must think Government just has bottomless buckets of both  Opex & Capex $.
Running as DC's will take min 7 x 3 = 21 cars, whereas running as 4 car sets would require 5 x4 = 20 cars. Those fleet sizes could run up up to 5 return trips on Weekdays and allows for cyclic maintenance
  Contrillion Junior Train Controller

Location: Geelong, Victoria
Personally I have no issue with the extra wheelchair spaces.

Traveling on the line fairly regularly, the wheelchair spaces at the end of car C are often hotly contested by those with walking aids, mobility scooters and even families with prams.

I think the extra space is warranted.
  bevans Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Asked above how many cars are planned for each service with the new design?
BRAG reckons most services will be double consists , crazy when a four car set seating 240 would be more than enough on most trips.  Running double consists will result in wasting $ millions in unnecessary opex each year by continued refusal of the whizkids in DOT to introduce a mix of 3 & 4 car sets to the VLP operation.

DC involves extra cost to staff two buffets or buffets in two sets will only be open half the trip. Also pax can't move between the two sets except at stations.  Just crazy.

Wheelchair spaces - originally the DDA requirement was to provide two wheelchair spaces for each train irrespective of length.  So 6 for a three car set seems a bit over the top, and 12 for a DC well thts way over the top of observed normal utilization of wheelcahir spaces per trip.???

Some people in the transport bureaucracies must think Government just has bottomless buckets of both  Opex & Capex $.
Running as DC's will take min 7 x 3 = 21 cars, whereas running as 4 car sets would require 5 x4 = 20 cars. Those fleet sizes could run up up to 5 return trips on Weekdays and allows for cyclic maintenance
kuldalai

Hey K thanks for the update.

BRAG reckons most services will be double consists , crazy when a four car set seating 240 would be more than enough on most trips. Running double consists will result in wasting $ millions in unnecessary opex each year by continued refusal of the whizkids in DOT to introduce a mix of 3 & 4 car sets to the VLP operation.
Somebody

I am still not sure what this means?  Are we saying that every train (not sure how many sets but it depends on the consist) will have 6 cars for the service?

DC involves extra cost to staff two buffets or buffets in two sets will only be open half the trip. Also pax can't move between the two sets except at stations. Just crazy.
Somebody
Meaning there will be 2 x buffets across the 6 cars?  That might not be a bad idea however I suppose it depends on the demand for the services offered in the buffet.  As I can see from the diagrams the buffet car does not have own tables?

The fact the passengers cannot move between the two sets is again just a shocking design (I am calling it out) for a longer distance service.  The Vlocity platform is not the way to go for longer distance services.  It is like bashing a square peg into a round hole.

Wheelchair spaces - originally the DDA requirement was to provide two wheelchair spaces for each train irrespective of length. So 6 for a three car set seems a bit over the top, and 12 for a DC well thas way over the top of observed normal utilization of wheelcahir spaces per trip.???
Somebody

So there is some truth to the call out by the BRAG and other users here.  Again a good reason not to use the VLOCITY platform.

Some people in the transport bureaucracies must think Government just has bottomless buckets of both Opex & Capex $. Running as DC's will take min 7 x 3 = 21 cars, whereas running as 4 car sets would require 5 x4 = 20 cars. Those fleet sizes could run up up to 5 return trips on Weekdays and allows for cyclic maintenance
Somebody

DC's? = Dual Consist?

Thinking more about this the whole design should be scrapped and a new design completed. The DOT must be full of dummies.
  Duncs Chief Commissioner

Bevans you are correct.

What they are doing with Vlocities is a stop gap solution. Although I am not sure V Line and DOT realize this.
I agree with Kuldalai, a properly designed set of 4- 5 cars would work perfectly, with access throughout the train.
For off peak services (eg. Ballarat to SCS at 11.00am) being able to detach one of the three car sets that is not required makes sense.
But all the trains to Albury are already 4-5 car consists, so why not just set up the new trainset on the same basis.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

The easiest alteration to the plan would be to eliminate the two spare cabs in the middle and make it a through consist, then replace one of the buffets with seats.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
What are the load factors on the current N Sets?  Might the adjustment down in capacity match the current demand?  Might also there be adjustments coming Seymour and south with the introduction of more Shepparton services that change the need for current capacity?
  The Vinelander Minister for Railways

Location: Ballan, Victoria on the Ballarat RFR Line
Asked above how many cars are planned for each service with the new design?
BRAG reckons most services will be double consists , crazy when a four car set seating 240 would be more than enough on most trips.  Running double consists will result in wasting $ millions in unnecessary opex each year by continued refusal of the whizkids in DOT to introduce a mix of 3 & 4 car sets to the VLP operation.

DC involves extra cost to staff two buffets or buffets in two sets will only be open half the trip. Also pax can't move between the two sets except at stations.  Just crazy.
kuldalai

Official representations from a trusted source suggesting an unpowered 4th car have been made to the highest level of the Andrews government...will be interesting to see the outcome.

Mike.
  Contrillion Junior Train Controller

Location: Geelong, Victoria
What are the load factors on the current N Sets?  Might the adjustment down in capacity match the current demand?  Might also there be adjustments coming Seymour and south with the introduction of more Shepparton services that change the need for current capacity?
james.au
That was one of the reasons cited for cutting a car from each of the current SG N sets in the name of a more reliable service (by forming a spare consist).

Truthfully, outside of sporting/major events and Friday pm-Sunday, the service is not particularly well utilised. Most trips have many empty seats.
  Inland_Sailor Junior Train Controller

What are the load factors on the current N Sets?  Might the adjustment down in capacity match the current demand?  Might also there be adjustments coming Seymour and south with the introduction of more Shepparton services that change the need for current capacity?
That was one of the reasons cited for cutting a car from each of the current SG N sets in the name of a more reliable service (by forming a spare consist).

Truthfully, outside of sporting/major events and Friday pm-Sunday, the service is not particularly well utilised. Most trips have many empty seats.
Contrillion
Its a chicken and egg conundrum. The poor quality of the service has led to less passengers, so less passengers leads to a lessening of service!
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Spot on.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I think in reality some more thinking should have been done with these long range vlocities. Many on here have screamed about NSW choosing the design they did and while it would have been great if it was built in Newcastle the basic design is brilliant. Bi modal mode may not have been a necessity in Victoria but diesel electric with 2 engines per 3 car carriage (4 per 6 car carriage) and no additional generators.

I wonder if the generators on these medium distance vlocities could be removed and the engine on one of the four carriages used as a generator instead. Reducing the amount of weight in each carriage by doing so.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW
What are the load factors on the current N Sets?  Might the adjustment down in capacity match the current demand?  Might also there be adjustments coming Seymour and south with the introduction of more Shepparton services that change the need for current capacity?
That was one of the reasons cited for cutting a car from each of the current SG N sets in the name of a more reliable service (by forming a spare consist).

Truthfully, outside of sporting/major events and Friday pm-Sunday, the service is not particularly well utilised. Most trips have many empty seats.
Contrillion
I wasnt wanting to comment on that as ive been on only 2 services, and both of them were reasonably well patronised ex Albury (given it was the start of the run) at around a third or half full, with a full train by the time it got to SCS.
  Galron Chief Commissioner

Location: Werribee, Vic

Official representations from a trusted source suggesting an unpowered 4th car have been made to the highest level of the Andrews government...will be interesting to see the outcome.

Mike.
The Vinelander
I guess the range on the cars fuel systems will be sufficient, but sling another 5000-7000L of fuel under the T car, and plumb it up to the 3 driving cars. I know good ideas and V/Line dont usualy work out, but you never know.
  trainbrain Chief Commissioner


Official representations from a trusted source suggesting an unpowered 4th car have been made to the highest level of the Andrews government...will be interesting to see the outcome.

Mike.I guess the range on the cars fuel systems will be sufficient, but sling another 5000-7000L of fuel under the T car, and plumb it up to the 3 driving cars. I know good ideas and V/Line dont usualy work out, but you never know.
Galron
Careful, they miight be reading this and steal your idea, then claim it for themselves.
  james.au Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney, NSW

Official representations from a trusted source suggesting an unpowered 4th car have been made to the highest level of the Andrews government...will be interesting to see the outcome.

Mike.I guess the range on the cars fuel systems will be sufficient, but sling another 5000-7000L of fuel under the T car, and plumb it up to the 3 driving cars. I know good ideas and V/Line dont usualy work out, but you never know.Careful, they miight be reading this and steal your idea, then claim it for themselves.
trainbrain
If the good ideas were stolen from this site and implemented the industry might be a better place (though not the bad ideas, and there are plenty of them...)
  Galron Chief Commissioner

Location: Werribee, Vic

Official representations from a trusted source suggesting an unpowered 4th car have been made to the highest level of the Andrews government...will be interesting to see the outcome.

Mike.I guess the range on the cars fuel systems will be sufficient, but sling another 5000-7000L of fuel under the T car, and plumb it up to the 3 driving cars. I know good ideas and V/Line dont usualy work out, but you never know.Careful, they miight be reading this and steal your idea, then claim it for themselves.
trainbrain
Happy to License the idea for nominal compensation. Indefinite access to their internal train tracker and to be put on the mailing list for the daily and weekly notices would suffice i think Smile

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