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X’Trapolis 2.0 announcement

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      penguin2233 Locomotive Driver

    Location: Craigieburn, Melbourne VIC
    But the xtrap is not one of those excellent models. It is a very cheap off the shelf bog standard train for third world jurisdictions of which Victoria bought because we are too frigging cheap to buy decent trains.

    As I said, I hope the XTrap 2.0 is more like the others than its direct predecessor.
    potatoinmymouth
    This may be the final chance for Alstom to stay in Victoria, of course the state gov will try to keep Alstom in Victoria, but if the general public isn't happy with X'Trap 2.0, then I reckon people will want to boot Alstom out.
    Posted: 24 Oct 2018 12:16

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      sthyer Deputy Commissioner

    Ah yes, Xcrap circuit breakers. I had a wiper switch fail during an afternoon prep, a pity I was trying to turn it off from high at the time. No breaker to trip, so left the entire train for the fitters. An entire PM peak train lost for the sake of an accessible circuit breaker.
    Posted: 24 Oct 2018 12:39
      potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

    But the xtrap is not one of those excellent models. It is a very cheap off the shelf bog standard train for third world jurisdictions of which Victoria bought because we are too frigging cheap to buy decent trains.

    As I said, I hope the XTrap 2.0 is more like the others than its direct predecessor.
    This may be the final chance for Alstom to stay in Victoria, of course the state gov will try to keep Alstom in Victoria, but if the general public isn't happy with X'Trap 2.0, then I reckon people will want to boot Alstom out.
    penguin2233
    Great example of why privatised railway workshops are such a difficult issue. The state has no capacity to efficiently allocate resources and in fact has a disincentive to do so.
    Posted: 24 Oct 2018 12:59
      Crossover Train Controller

    Location: St. Albans Victoria
    But the xtrap is not one of those excellent models. It is a very cheap off the shelf bog standard train for third world jurisdictions of which Victoria bought because we are too frigging cheap to buy decent trains.

    As I said, I hope the XTrap 2.0 is more like the others than its direct predecessor.
    This may be the final chance for Alstom to stay in Victoria, of course the state gov will try to keep Alstom in Victoria, but if the general public isn't happy with X'Trap 2.0, then I reckon people will want to boot Alstom out.
    penguin2233
    I disagree for 2 reasons ; !/ Joe public would`t know what an Alstom is ;.and 2/ they have set up a sustained manufacturing base in Victoria in an area that was depressed economically and are training apprentices . This is investing in the state`s future when other manufacturing enterprises where shutting up shop and moving away .
    Posted: 24 Oct 2018 21:45
      penguin2233 Locomotive Driver

    Location: Craigieburn, Melbourne VIC
    But the xtrap is not one of those excellent models. It is a very cheap off the shelf bog standard train for third world jurisdictions of which Victoria bought because we are too frigging cheap to buy decent trains.

    As I said, I hope the XTrap 2.0 is more like the others than its direct predecessor.
    This may be the final chance for Alstom to stay in Victoria, of course the state gov will try to keep Alstom in Victoria, but if the general public isn't happy with X'Trap 2.0, then I reckon people will want to boot Alstom out.
    I disagree for 2 reasons ; !/ Joe public would`t know what an Alstom is ;.and 2/ they have set up a sustained manufacturing base in Victoria in an area that was depressed economically and are training apprentices . This is investing in the state`s future when other manufacturing enterprises where shutting up shop and moving away .
    Crossover
    Good points raised. I fully agree with you, however I do think if X'Trap 2.0 is bad then maybe a general bad image will be put on Alstom because of the press and media.
    Posted: 25 Oct 2018 08:20
      DirtyBallast Chief Commissioner

    Location: I was here first. You're only visiting.
    I'll stick my neck out here and declare that as an occasional rider of X'Traps, I can't see anything wrong with them. Maybe I only take a dozen trips a year or so, but I much prefer them to a Comeng train that is well past its use by date with aforementioned aircon squealing like a banshee. Siemens trains do seem a bit smoother but it's not a game changer for me. I've never been thrown out of my seat or lost my balance when standing, even at maximum line speed.

    Are some of you that precious that you see it as a hanging offence if your twain wide isn't as smooth as a 737-800 at 11000m? Do you actually realise how silly it sounds to incessantly whinge about relatively new and clean hardware provided for you that departs every 10 minutes or so from your station all day long? If you don't like them, drive your car and leave Railpage.

    I'm sympathetic for the X'Trap drivers who have real issues with the design and quality of construction, but for the 99.99% rest of us who just want to get from A to B they are perfectly acceptable.
    Posted: 27 Oct 2018 21:51

    Last edited by DirtyBallast on 27 Oct 2018 21:52; edited 1 time in total
      ptvcommuter Train Controller

    Can’t see anything wrong .....
    As a user who stands on public transport you really need to hold on firmly so that you don’t fall over
    Train bumps up and down as it has no suspension like a roller coaster
    Those who don’t hold on have to use their body and knees to keep balanced, it’s a workout
    Posted: 28 Oct 2018 23:48
      Braddo Deputy Commissioner

    Location: Narre Warren
    Thanks for that fascinating post Gavin J. Would be very interested for you (or someone else) to do a similar post outlining the problems with Hitachis, Comengs and Siemens trains.
    Posted: 06 Nov 2018 23:52
      ptvcommuter Train Controller

    Thanks to Gavin J for this, here are the good and bad things about Melbourne’s fleet. Seems like the Xtraps are utter garbage

    Siemans

    Good Points::

    was very comfortable to drive

    plenty space in cab

    controls very good

    ride was as smooth as silk

    visibility good (except side view)
    Bad Points::

    powering seemed rather slow to get going
    braking problems
    air conditioning was bad

    summer was a bit better but heating in winter was abysmal

    as it would blow warm air out the side vents, but blow cold air

    up the windscreen, on on your face..not pleasant
    fault lights themselves were colored plastic

    with a globe behind them, so they were hard to read

    also they told you very little.....

    "minor fault second unit"

    ummmmm, but what is the fault ???

    doors ? air cond ? mechanical ??
    dash lights were dimmed by a single dimmer.....


    the speedo was an analog needle display and had a dimmer globe

    at night you had 2 choices....all other gauges were nicely dimmed, but you couldnt read speedo

    or you can read speedo but other lights are far too bright.
    it had 4 pantographs but only 2 air compressors per 6 car train( xcrap and comeng have 4 compressors)

    if an air comp failed, usually the other one had trouble keeping the pressure up, and if it failed you were totally

    disabled and had to be rescued....quite common)
    door problems were nuisence to fix

    (saloon door would attempt to close 3 times)

    if it could not close, it would go 'limp'

    and disconnect itself.

    the driver had to go back, manually isolate the door

    pull the door inward/outward until it 'clicked'

    then it would be in sync.....then you had to

    open /close door from cabin, and it should reset itself.

    all this took about 10 minutes, in a crowded train, you had no hope,)
    door locks, you could not slam lock the side doors, you had to lock with a key requiring an idiotic 3 full turns
    wipers...because of curved windscreen the wipers did not do a very good job at high speed, lifting off the windscreen,

    they also had very little 'pressure' on them, the smallest bug on the windscreen would smear.....the washer jets were


    hopeless
    the drivers dislay unit for setting up the (radio)  Train describer number, headboard was very confusing to operate
    headlights were bad
    hi beam button/indicator would stick or not lock in

    some were wired up improperly, you thought they were on dim, until another train flashed their headlights at you or

    gave you the finger for blinding them.
    Comeng
    Good Points::

    very comfortable ride and seating

    dashboard/controls/circuit breakers/gauges all positioned perfectly

    air brake !

    heating excellent

    air cond ok when it worked

    had 4 pantographs....if one was defective you could lower it and the train could keep in service
    Bad Points::

    air cond problems (see my separate thread on cab air conds)

    also the return air cond from saloon came thru the drivers cabin

    anything smelly in saloon would come straight into the drivers cab

    perfume, vomit, food smells, germs.....you would have a passenger coughing and spluttering

    behind the drivers cabin, next day the driver also had a 'cold'.....thanks to the air cond.

    clapped out motors.....usually not fixed.....it wasn't uncommon

    to have motors isolated, many trains ran on 75% to 50% power all day/week/month/year long

    nothing better than trying to start from uphill platforms like Oak Park in evening peak

    with 50% power....took forever to get train going, then lucky to be doing 20kph up hill to Glenroy.

    In my final years, you were lucky to get a Comeng with an actual 100% of motors working.
    My test track was in the old days from Aircraft to Hoppers Crossing (before Williams Landing put in)

    leaving Aircraft in weak fields (full power) you got to full speed crossing Skeleton Ck bridge

    most were lucky to get to 115kph....some only got to 80kph with motors isolated.
    Disc set units were a more uncomfortable ride, and the disc brakes were not as reliable, with weaker braking.

    In the wet, the wheels would lock/up skid .....although they actually did something to fix this problem

    by the mid 90s.

    With brake block bogies, you can actually see the brake blox and the piston travel, so you can visually

    see if the brake is applied.

    On a disc set, you have no indication the brake is applied, apart from unofficial methods to test it, not taught in

    class.

    You could kick the calliper and it should be tight/solid, and you could feel the outside rim, to see if it was hot

    (brakes working) or cold (brakes not working)

    You could just see the brake pad, better to see it at night with the torch.

    Xcrapper

    Good Points::

    excellent acceleration and braking (in the dry)
    Bad Points:: apart from my previous write up
    awful acceleration and braking in the wet conditions....
    excessive wheelslip in wet weather, spinning wheels...

    as an example how sensitive they were to wet rails....on a summers day, sitting at a platform, you could put on the

    windscreen washers, the water would fall on the railhead, when you departed, the wheels would spin, just picking up

    that tiny few droplets of water...

    so on a wet day, you gingerly applied brakes and hoped the wheels would not lock up and skid
    abysmal ride/suspension
    only 2 pantograhs per 6 car train......very bad cost cutting

    if you had a defective panto, you had to lower it, meaning the train could now not take passengers as you lost the air

    cond on that half, also affected braking, lighting
    computer/software problems......fault lights would come up and train would stop.

    when this first happened, they told you to drop the pantographs to fix the problem, to reset the computer, meaning the

    train was sitting on the mainline with no lighting whatsoever....no tail lights on rear.....if a train came up behind

    you, you had no tail lights...highly dangerous
    once they figured this out, they put a battery backup in for the tail lights.
    pantographs raised by battery power (in comeng its pneumatic)

    flat battery, meant no panto up, meaning train is not moving anywhere

    there was no battery backup for the battery from the other 3 cars....

    i once got to glen waverley to dock morning peak train...front 3 cars lit up and alive, back 3 cars dead....as it had

    a flat battery.....despite front being lit, there is no power thru couplers to put pantos up in rear,

    train cancelled, fitters had to come out with battery pack to charge battery up
    saloon dooors....if they failed to close 3 times they went 'limp' like a siemans, you had to manually isolate them

    then pull them closed, then unisolate then open/close from cabin several times to reset them.
    fault lights told you nothing

    'major fault' ??   'minor fault' ??
    cab doors were always locked on outside, if you got out of cab for anything (wheelchairs) make sure you had your keys

    as soon as you closed the door.....the only way in was with a key. Many drivers got locked out doing wheelchairs by doing this

    Posted: 17 Nov 2018 15:53

    Last edited by ptvcommuter on 17 Nov 2018 15:56; edited 2 times in total
      @Capacity Station Staff
    Posted: 16 Jul 2019 00:26
      Upven Junior Train Controller

    X’Trapolis Train are garbage and a piece of crap
    The Siemens Trains, despite the braking scenario are better, more comfortable, smoother and cleaner to travel in after their refurbishment. Why are we persisting with buying these rubbish trains

    Why not an upgraded Siemens Train with 3 Doors per side. Built locally to satisfy those who want trains Australian made. Alston are a joke
    Because they are cheap.

    Michael
    mejhammers1
    I think this is a misconception. Unless broad-gauge trains are just generally much much much much more expensive than standard gauge.
    Posted: 16 Jul 2019 02:23
      potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

    That is the ugliest damn train I’ve ever seen!
    Posted: 16 Jul 2019 07:46
      TOQ-1 Deputy Commissioner

    Location: Power Trainger
    That is the ugliest damn train I’ve ever seen!
    potatoinmymouth
    Modern safety requirements mean the coupler needs to be hidden when not in use so people can't ride on it, which I think is the driver of the design. But yes, it's ugly.
    Posted: 16 Jul 2019 08:13
      @Capacity Station Staff

    Location: On the Gippsland line, stuck behind a metro
    I think it would look nicer if the drivers side window was bigger.
    Posted: 16 Jul 2019 08:27
      Carnot Minister for Railways

    I must admit it would be kind of ironic if Dan Andrews does a Baillieu/Napthine circa 2011-14 and forgets to order new trains to replace old ones...

    Will XTrap 2.0 be accredited to do 115 km/h like the Comengs, since they can't really be a drop-in replacement on all lines?
    Posted: 16 Jul 2019 10:22

    Last edited by Carnot on 16 Jul 2019 10:22; edited 1 time in total
      potatoinmymouth Chief Commissioner

    I must admit it would be kind of ironic if Dan Andrews does a Baillieu/Napthine circa 2011-14 and forgets to order new trains to replace old ones...

    Will XTrap 2.0 be accredited to do 115 km/h like the Comengs, since they can't really be a drop-in replacement on all lines?
    Carnot
    In his first term he ordered (by my count) just under 700 carriages in total, compared to Bailleu/Napthine who ordered about 130. They do seem to have some handle on the volumes required.
    Posted: 16 Jul 2019 11:05
      Goose13 Station Master

    Location: Having a sook about Southern cross's western wall
    Is this just Alstrom putting pressure on the government, or is the X'trapolis 2.0 "tender" in trouble?
    Posted: 16 Jul 2019 17:35

    Last edited by Goose13 on 16 Jul 2019 17:50; edited 1 time in total
      themetptc Train Controller

    Location: Ballarat
    Seems like a threat from Alstom to me - "buy our trains or we will close".
    The 2.0 upgrade does however sound good, although about 150 3 car sets too late, problems/inadequatness was known in the 1.0 very early on. Replacing the Comeng is needed, but as a former suburban traveller, as far as the newer trains were concerned the Siemens was miles ahead in both quality and comfort over the Xtrapolis.
    It is interesting that the likes of SSR and EDI seem to have no poblem with work for both BG and SG but Alstom only have the Xtrapolis. Then again, the former two are known for providing quality service/ products, whereas Alstom are known for their inferior quality /products.
    Sim
    Posted: 16 Jul 2019 20:05
      Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

    Location: On a Thing with Internet
    Its seems very much like Alstom holding assets to ransom and attempting to force it down our governments throat.
    Man those things are ugly, makes the RL's Look like a playboy supermodel in comparison.
    Posted: 16 Jul 2019 21:15
      Lockspike Deputy Commissioner

    Throw 'em a contract to build broad gauge TGVs...Laughing
    Posted: 16 Jul 2019 21:40
      Dangersdan707 Chief Commissioner

    Location: On a Thing with Internet
    Throw 'em a contract to build broad gauge TGVs...Laughing
    Lockspike
    that would be too good to be true. If Geelong High speed ever happens...
    Posted: 16 Jul 2019 22:03
      LancedDendrite Chief Commissioner

    Location: Gheringhap Loop Autonomous Zone
    They could maybe get Alstom Ballarat to have a go building a few of these for use in Melbourne:
    https://www.alstom.com/our-solutions/rolling-stock/aptis-new-experience-electro-mobility
    Posted: 16 Jul 2019 22:59
      ngarner Deputy Commissioner

    Location: Seville
    Is this just Alstrom putting pressure on the government, or is the X'trapolis 2.0 "tender" in trouble?
    Goose13
    Alstom have a contract to refurbish the existing X'trap fleet which should keep people employed for some time to come. Marcus Wong posted photos of two sets being transferred to Ballarat in last week or so and then there are still another 10 new build (version 1) still to come.
    It does seem to me like they're trying to pressure the government into locking in another contract

    Neil
    Posted: 17 Jul 2019 11:38
      Madjikthise Deputy Commissioner

    "plans to improve the train’s suspension to make the ride less bumpy" is just putting on another band aid masking the root cause of the problem.

    Also the cabin looks really deep, are they thinking of bringing back a parcel service to rail?
    Posted: 17 Jul 2019 14:46
      ARodH Chief Train Controller

    Location: East Oakleigh, Vic
    Well, they did go for the cheapest option for suspension, possibly on the chance of making bank on upgrading it with better later.
    Posted: 17 Jul 2019 17:52

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