Labor to spend big on South Coast rail line by axing the F6 extension

 
Topic moved from News by bevans on 09 Nov 2018 15:10
  42101 A end Junior Train Controller

Well then you best go edit the wikipeadia article then.

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  RTT_Rules Dr Beeching

Location: Dubai UAE
Rtt
Yawn i cannot be bothered but then again you will of course do yet another one of your famous edit post tricks as you do constantly....care to show where i have quoted or as you say misquoted you?

Funny how after having a quick look at your profile there are just in the 1st 3 pages of your activitity  a totaly constant rtt edited this post log.
42101 A end
42101
Leave the Dreamtime to the Aboriginals, at least they make it entertaining and interesting. You are however are talking increasing levels of complete garbage.

yet another one of your famous edit post tricks as you do constantly....care to show where i have quoted or as you say misquoted you?

What complete B___ S___. Lets start with famous for what? Where? I have never seen one person ever comment on a post I subsequently edited to correct spelling, gramma, sometimes technical content or fixing a mistake or other issue highlited by another poster and I normally say so thank that poster for highliting the issue.

If you had a brain you would also know that if you post using a Samsung phone, you cannot easily edit or quote a post, so at times I do this later.

"where i have quoted or as you say misquoted you?"
Lets start with this.

"Railway has no comptent Engineering or Geological staff any longer"
where did I say it didn't?

1st 3 pages of your activitity  a totaly constant rtt edited this post log.
OK smart Ar$e, so go through each one and show me how I deceived anyone or changed tack on any one of these!!!!


42101, YM says you are supposed knowledgeable, so demonstrate it, lets see your opinion on anything actually rail related and quit with the Dreamtime antics!!!!
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Righto, rev up those bulldozers and start rolling them through the bougie 'burbs of Sydney to make way for flats and apartment towers then. Start at Mosman and head north until you hit Mona Vale. Crush the bungalows, mangle the McMansions and laugh at the lamentations of the NIMBYs.
LancedDendrite

Already happening. Old Sydney is disappearing and being replaced by 20-30 storey apartment block towers. The new Metro system is supposed to tap in to this.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I would also point out that whatever time the train loses through the national park it more then makes it up against the car north of waterfall. extending the quad further south of hurstville would also help and fixing up the entrance in to central wouldn't hurt either.

The journey from Wollongong to central is only 14 minutes slower by train then the car and is actually a shorter distance even with the route through the national park.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

That 14 minutes might actually be zero minutes. From Wollongong station to central it is 1 hour and 26 minutes and the car apparently takes the same time station to station. Obviously most people are leaving from their home and not the station but considering that you don't need to worry about parking the car the train is actually surprisingly competitive against the car. The train from wollongong is much more competitive then say my home town of Liverpool where the train takes about twice the time of the car.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I have no problems with new ones but I don't see it being viable either. My humble opinion is that if you work in Sydney then don't live in Wollongong, central coast, southern highlands, blue mountains, gosford or newcastle. Find a job in the local area and stay there.
simstrain

That's been tried: result is chronic 10%+ unemployment in Newcastle/Gosford/Wollongong, with unaffordable housing in Sydney.

Besides, why not say the same thing about parts of Sydney like, I don't know ... Liverpool Smile?

The problem of labour mobility is the very reason we have a rail system at all.  With all due respect (ie, I'm being a bit too harsh on @simstrain in a thread that already has more heat than light) , "Find a job in the local area and stay there" is an admission the rail system is NOT doing the job required of it.

BTW, I think it's equally pathetic that Liverpool to Sydney is an hour by rail, when it should be no more than 20 minutes.  But, this is result of a century of questionable planning combined with an "it can't be done" attitude to incremental improvements.

In my view Heavy Rail is unique among transport modes in that it allows mega cities to function as a single labour market, in a way no other mode can.  Most of the world's mega-cities (New York, Paris, London, Tokyo etc) rely on their HR networks to serve this purpose.

FWIW, I was a V Set commuter from Wollongong in the late 80s at the start of my working life.  Electrification made a big difference to my life personally, but also a big difference to Wollongong, mostly (but not entirely) for the better.

The Illawarra is going to add 100,000 to it's (220k ATM) population over the next 10 years, mostly around Albion Park and Dapto, with Zero new employment opportunities outside the expanded Centrelink offices.
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

I reckon the best thing that Labor could do is finish what they started.

If they want to scrap the F6, that is their call, but the best thing they can do for the illawara is complete Maldon to Dombarton line, and make Port Kembla more efficient and accessible, create more jobs, help our exporters. It is a no brainer. I am sounding like a politician.

Leave the existing illawara line alone. As many of you have said, if people want to commute to Sydney, and they don't like the train, they have the choice to drive in all the way, or leave the car at waterfall, and then train it.
  a6et Minister for Railways

The Illawarra line as it is, cannot be improved up, even if it was able to be improved between Waterfall and the localities above Thiroul, what cost would be involved and how many extra people would use the service, and at what cost?

Having been a driver over the line for some years, it does have the potential cut a lot of the large curves out by going straight down to Helensburgh,  at the bottom of the long straight that was part of the old line, and cut through park area and come in on the Waterfall side of the curve that comes into the Station.

A better solution though would be to move Helensburgh station further along towards the next right hand curve before going to the tunnel, this would upset some, and would likely cost more owing to there being the need for bridges over the ravines that are on the eastern side of the line. Thing is though it would cut a lot of time off the travel and assist with freight movement as well.

In the same way the line south of the longer Helensburgh tunnel could readily be straightened to go and link back into the line south of where Lilydale station was, probably would not be the same economical benefits in that change as there would be between Waterfall and Helensburgh.

There is merit though in getting the Maldon - Dombarton line opened though, and in this case I would be suggesting electrification of it for passenger trains, many used to drive from the Wgong area to work in Campbelltown so that could entice commuters there as well. Would also be beneficial for freight services also.
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

a6et,  I was probably one of your pax, commuting in the opposite direction from Sydney to North Wollongong as a uni student a long time ago. I recall bolting from my lectures to catch the 5.37pm U boat back to Sydney. That train was a lot of fun. I recall one occasion where lightning blacked out the signals north of coalcliff. The tunnel was closed. Had to wait 3 hours for a rail bus. Whatever time was lost in the NP, was made up on the speed from Waterfall to Sutherland. Those U boats could fly!
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

There is merit though in getting the Maldon - Dombarton line opened though, and in this case I would be suggesting electrification of it for passenger trains, many used to drive from the Wgong area to work in Campbelltown so that could entice commuters there as well. Would also be beneficial for freight services also.
a6et

This is a bit off topic, but ...

Personally, I think there is next to no merit in Maldon Dombarton.  It was a white elephant at the time, and and even bigger one now.  

The idea of PAX rail from Wollongong via Ununderra to SW Sydney over that alignment being even remotely competitive with busses is laughable.

The Tahmoor coal mine has re-opened, but can't really be considered a reliable long term customer.

AFAIK there isn't all that much Western Coal traffic exported through Port Kembla anyway, and (I just measured in Google Earth) the M-D route is roughly 5km *longer* than the current route.

The route is too short for IM traffic, and Port Kembla doesn't have an container facility anyway.

But .... all that aside  ...

... it's a different route !!!  

Whatever happens on M-D might as well be done in PNG for all the good it will do South Coast line users.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

Liverpool is a great example of not going any where and working where you live. Because our train service is so bad most people who live in Liverpool work in Liverpool or it's nearby surrounds. I certainly don't travel far from Liverpool to work. If you live in the eastern suburbs, north shore or northern beaches then I will not travel to you to fix your computer.

Rail travel is significantly down in this area and the warwick farm commuter car park is full because of hospital staff looking for free parking rather then anybody actually catching a train.

We have a significant hospital and a large medical precinct. A massive CBD and shopping centre, new educational facilities and places like the new intermodal going in that creates jobs in the area. Not to mention the new airport coming on line in a few years time.

So yeah don't rely on rail and live in your suburb and prop your local community up instead.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

So yeah I have no sympathy for the commuters on the south coast rail line when the train takes roughly the same time as driving even with the route through the national park. Compare that to double the time by train as car from Liverpool and then start complaigning. I am on the liverpool transport taskforce and our focus has been for better local bus services. There is nothing we can do about the train service and so we don't waste our time on such.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I would go as far to say that I would travel to Canberra for a customer but never to the north shore or northern beaches. That probably has something to do also with most of the people who live on the north shore and northern beaches. Most of those people are too up themselves snobs and for people with lots of money they are stingy as.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

I am on the liverpool transport taskforce and our focus has been for better local bus services. There is nothing we can do about the train service and so we don't waste our time on such.
simstrain

Well, I don't believe that *nothing* can be done.  And for $2.6bil a *lot* could be done.

A fleet of Pendolinos for starters.

The route was 7km shorter (nearly 10%) in 1890 than it is today.  To say that "nothing can be done" is simply BS.  Not only can things be done, they were done back in the 1880s.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

What is a pendolino going to do? How will a single deck pendolino cope with the capacity. There is a reason we run double decks to most of our interurban routes and that is because of the lack of paths on the suburban lines.

In 1890 trains couldn't get up the alignment without stalling and giving everybody who rode it lungs full of soot. What ever they achieved in 1880 is not anywhere near the same as what is needed in 2018. It may have been 7km's shorter but most likely it would not have been any faster or else they wouldn't have went to the current alignment.
  a6et Minister for Railways

a6et,  I was probably one of your pax, commuting in the opposite direction from Sydney to North Wollongong as a uni student a long time ago. I recall bolting from my lectures to catch the 5.37pm U boat back to Sydney. That train was a lot of fun. I recall one occasion where lightning blacked out the signals north of coalcliff. The tunnel was closed. Had to wait 3 hours for a rail bus. Whatever time was lost in the NP, was made up on the speed from Waterfall to Sutherland. Those U boats could fly!
ANR
Being at PTK 78 - 82 the electrification was yet to arrive down there. The U's though were pretty much the same as the Suburban W sets which could move nicely.  There was 3 depots on top of each other on the Illawarra. PTK, Wollongong & Thiroul.

PTK was primarily a freight depot and only working local Passenger service when a Wollongong driver was crook.  
Wollongong did most of the local passenger trains at that with Thiroul doing some also some freight work as well.

How it panned out with electrification is something I don't know about but I believe that Thiroul was either closed totally or pretty well most were put off or transferred out.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

What is a pendolino going to do?
simstrain

  • Cut 15 min off the transit time on the current alignment
  • Increase top end speed from 130 kph to 200 kph
  • Extract the full benefit from (and reduce the cost of) future re-alignments
  • Not get the PAX lungs full of soot Smile


How will a single deck pendolino cope with the capacity.

The same way we do now with the OSCARS: 2+3 seating, tight seat pitch and 1 dunny per 400 PAX.


... What ever they achieved in 1880 is not anywhere near the same as what is needed in 2018. It may have been 7km's shorter but most likely it would not have been any faster or else they wouldn't have went to the current alignment.

The 1890 and 1920 alignments were based on pick and shovel construction and low powered steam operation economics of the time.  The first alignment was short because of the high cost of earth works.  The second alignment was an investment to reduce the required power to weight ratio of the under powered, high cost locomotives of the era.
  a6et Minister for Railways

What is a pendolino going to do?

  • Cut 15 min off the transit time on the current alignment
  • Increase top end speed from 130 kph to 200 kph
  • Extract the full benefit from (and reduce the cost of) future re-alignments
  • Not get the PAX lungs full of soot Smile


How will a single deck pendolino cope with the capacity.

The same way we do now with the OSCARS: 2+3 seating, tight seat pitch and 1 dunny per 400 PAX.


... What ever they achieved in 1880 is not anywhere near the same as what is needed in 2018. It may have been 7km's shorter but most likely it would not have been any faster or else they wouldn't have went to the current alignment.

The 1890 and 1920 alignments were based on pick and shovel construction and low powered steam operation economics of the time.  The first alignment was short because of the high cost of earth works.  The second alignment was an investment to reduce the required power to weight ratio of the under powered, high cost locomotives of the era.
djf01
The aspect of the old line was that it was very steep for loaded trains on the up, the single line tunnels were all but killers even when the trains kept moving through them.  The current alignment was to ease the grade for up trains, similar to the Main south in order to haul heavier trains with steam. The 1:40 grades in both directions especially Como for down trains off the gauntlet track bridge with no momentum, and then Loftus bank which was a momentum grade and the ruling grade/load for steam. A SG loco could only take 360tons up those grades.  48cl took 410tonnes.  Thos

On the up similar loads would have been the main especially with Superheated engines but many steamers were still saturated types and continued that way for some time. A superheated SG loco was allowed 615 Tons single 1220 double, 48cl could take 680tonnes single and 1330 double 1830 triple but were not allowed to go into the up loop at Sutherland unless the starting signal was clear for them to not stop.  The brakes on the 48cl would not hold the loads, thus any goods trains hauled by them and had to allow another train usually a spark  had to go first and the 48 hauled train sat at the Sutherland up home signal until the goods was allowed to go.

Even then, you did not pass the starter at the end of #1 platform unless you had 2 greens.

With diesel loco's of today its a non issue really for goods trains.
  ANR Assistant Commissioner

I am with simstrain on this one in saying I tend to avoid Sydney congestion at all costs and I am grateful to have this choice. I dread each time I have to drive into Sydney and will make up any excuse not to go.If I could take the train, it wouldn't be as bad.

I understand that others may not be in such an enviable position due to factors relating to health, finances or other.

With the V set replacements, I will soon not consider taking the train and sitting backwards for 2 hours. I hope that the driver has a forward facing seat... But that is another thread....
  42101 A end Junior Train Controller

ANR
Not every seat will face backwards...your grasp on reality is getting very thin.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

DJF, I'm sure south coast passengers will be extremely happy with a tight seat pitch and somehow squeezing 400 passengers into 4 car single deck carriage. 200km/h is never going to happen on the Sydney network as most Sydney electric trains can only do 115km/h with some capable of 130km/h in service. The XPT doesn't do 160km/h anywhere in Sydney and so how are you going to run a 200km/h train just to get south coast passengers to Sydney 15 minutes faster.

I have just spent some time down the south coast this last week and a new alignment just isn't going to happen. Trains just can not make the steep climbs that cars can. I was driving up bulli pass and noticed how there is now a huge steel mesh fence to stop falling rocks. A bridge out in the tasman is a ridiculous idea and so unless the Illawarra line is duplicated to at least Sutherland then how are you going to be able overcome the capacity issues by running extra trains and run freight at the same time?
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

DJF, I'm sure south coast passengers will be extremely happy with a tight seat pitch and somehow squeezing 400 passengers into 4 car single deck carriage.
simstrain


I'm sure they'll grumble about it just as much as they do now.  

FWIW, the NIF has a minimum seat pitch specification of 840mm.  That is 26 rows in a 22m cabin of a European Standard Pendolino (which I use as my reference set for capacity cals), for 104 2+2 PAX per car, or 25 rows x 5 for 125 if fitted out exactly as the H Sets are now.  Is this smeg?  Yes.  Is this worse than we have now?  No.  Would you prefer to endure it for 50min or 150min ?

200km/h is never going to happen on the Sydney network as most Sydney electric trains can only do 115km/h with some capable of 130km/h in service. The XPT doesn't do 160km/h anywhere in Sydney and so how are you going to run a 200km/h train just to get south coast passengers to Sydney 15 minutes faster.
simstrain

Just because it doesn't happen, doesn't mean it *can't* happen.


I have just spent some time down the south coast this last week and a new alignment just isn't going to happen. Trains just can not make the steep climbs that cars can. I was driving up bulli pass and noticed how there is now a huge steel mesh fence to stop falling rocks.
simstrain

That is why any new rail alignment won't go down Bulli Pass.  
Bulli Tops is 400m asl.  
Mt Ousely pass is 350m asl.
Bald Hill by comparison is 170m asl.


A bridge out in the tasman is a ridiculous idea
simstrain

I'm with you on that one.  
Building ocean pylons in the impact zone next to the shore?  It's an engineering challenge.
Defacing that iconic view?  It's not going to happen.


and so unless the Illawarra line is duplicated to at least Sutherland
simstrain

I think you'll find the Illawarra line was "duplicated" to Sutherland in the 19th century Smile.

But I agree with you here too, work would need to be done within Sydney to allow a faster transit between Sutherland and the City.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

DJF the OSCAR has 11 rows in a 20 metre carriage and so how are you getting 26 rows in a single deck 20 metre carriage? At best you are likely to only get 55-70 per carriage and not 105-125 that you have stated.

The hunter railcar would be similar to what you propose and it only handles 69-77 people per carriage in a 2+3 layout and a 25 metre carriage.
  simstrain Chief Commissioner

I was not suggesting the rail would go down bulli pass just that the land on the south coast is not exactly stable and at bald hill there is already a train line and so no need to do anything other then maybe build a new viaduct on a straighter alignment at stanwell park. Aside from that t is just impractical to do anything else. A new rail alignment will have to be on the same incline as the current route but on a straight line to be viable.
  djf01 Chief Commissioner

DJF the OSCAR has 11 rows in a 20 metre carriage and so how are you getting 26 rows in a single deck 20 metre carriage? At best you are likely to only get 55-70 per carriage and not 105-125 that you have stated.

The hunter railcar would be similar to what you propose and it only handles 69-77 people per carriage in a 2+3 layout and a 25 metre carriage.
simstrain

I don't have exact tech drawings of the OSCARS, but based on the NSWTrains fleet drawings the decks of the can OSCARs are 8.5m long, with 10 rows, and the motor units are 9.3m long for 11 rows.  It's a pitch of 850mm.  Most of the OSCAR & NIF car length is devoted to standing space, so they can operate through the City Railway and ESR.

The analogy I think is better are the Endeavours, but without the driver's cab, toilet or luggage.

The Pendolinos in Europe on regional/intercity services are typically fitted out for 350-550 PAX in a 7-9 car train.  But for short haul interurbans/outer-suburbans a 650-750 could be achieved with more generous spacing than and OSCAR or an NIF.

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