Holden Brand to be axed

 
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

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  ANR Deputy Commissioner

The writing had been on the wall for a long time. Isuzu has been propping up Holden while the Euro models have been a difficult sell.

There is a lot of history that will go to a museum, I am sure.

It would be great if Holden could branch out into some other manufacturing enterprise, in a similar way it started. Could it make trains or rail infrastructure? I guess the horse bolted when the factory shut down. What has been operating since is a hard sell to cynical consumers who saw the difference between marketing and reality.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

There is a lot of history that will go to a museum, I am sure.
ANR
Holden has long had a quite close relationship with the National Motor Museum which has included donating a large number of cars (both 'normal' and unique ones) and other exhibits, including a permanent production line themed installation.

This would be an appropriate destination for the concept car collection. There is space on the grounds for an expansion, and also the option of having only part of the collection on display at any one time with the remainder in storage or in rotation as a travelling exhibit.

It would be great if Holden could branch out into some other manufacturing enterprise, in a similar way it started. Could it make trains or rail infrastructure? I guess the horse bolted when the factory shut down. What has been operating since is a hard sell to cynical consumers who saw the difference between marketing and reality.
ANR
Holden is a subsidiary of General Motors and not an independent company, so that would be a decision for GM to make.

GM tried to offload Holden to Groupe PSA along with their European division (Opel & Vauxhall) but PSA weren't interested.

My bet is that GM will hold onto the brand and take very tight control of any licensing, rather than selling it.
  ANR Deputy Commissioner

If GM is resolute on not building any RHD cars, what does that mean for us? Will Ford, FCA and others follow suit? Will we get a new industry of go-between conversion companies replacing the dashboard, and moving everything (including the steering arm) under the hood due to (the traditional) weaker structures on the right side of the car? Expensive!

Does it mean we will eventually allow the running of LHDs on our RHD roads, or are we going to eventually transition to LHD roads?

If our cars come from countries like South Korea (and China) who are willing to make anything cheaply, and we keep buying Toyotas, will American cars permanently bite our red dust? I guess much depends on what can be made for the British and Japanese markets.

I would not want to be owning anything sold by Holden that is not older than 40 years.
  M636C Minister for Railways

There is no suggestion that General Motors will stop selling cars here.
I expect that some Korean built cars will arrive with the Chevrolet badges they carry in other markets.
Ford were smarter in dropping the Falcon name when they stopped building cars in Australia.

I'm amused by the confected anger from the Federal Government.
They decided that they couldn't support a car building industry but expected better treatment than they themselves gave to Holden.

I can remember Chevrolets and American Fords and Vauxhalls and Ford Zephyrs on sale here.
Ford are still selling European cars (if not that many)

If we lose the Equinox and the Acadia, will anyone notice, let alone care...

Peter
  AheadMatthewawsome Junior Train Controller

Location: Opening Train Lines
I knew it was going to happen sometime soon. I have noticed within the past 5 years that I saw less Holden's around. Then they stopped making them in Australia. Then they stopped the Commodore. I knew after that Holden lost it's soul, and it would be gone in less than 10 years. Seems like that was sooner! Cool

Anyways, after this transition ends. The existing Holden's will skyrocket in price!

STILL Anyways, I will miss Holden a lot. Because when you think of Australia, one of the things you think is Holden.
  ANR Deputy Commissioner

I am not anti Holden or anti Ford. I spent the entire 70s in an HK Holden Kingswood wagon and then an HQ Belmont station wagon. Those things were fun to ride in. Then the Commode came about which sent me to Ford, eventually with the EA series and beyond.

It could be just me, but I found the VE and VF commodes incredibly uncomfortable. The front seats were an atrocity.

With an E series falcon and beyond, they were so comfortable, you could drive from one side of the country to the other feeling you just got out of your lounge room chair.
  justapassenger Chief Commissioner

There is no suggestion that General Motors will stop selling cars here.
I expect that some Korean built cars will arrive with the Chevrolet badges they carry in other markets.
M636C
It's not just a suggestion, it's been confirmed that GM is not doing any more right hand drive vehicles anywhere. They left the UK/Ireland market a couple of years ago (sold off Opel and Vauxhall to Groupe PSA) are exiting Thailand this year as well as Australia/NZ.

The new Corvette (a mid-engined supercar, a step away from the traditional Corvette segment of being an affordable sports coupe) is engineered to be built as either LHD/RHD so there's a possibility that RHD models might be available in low numbers, but apart from that it will be down to aftermarket conversions.

If GM is resolute on not building any RHD cars, what does that mean for us? Will Ford, FCA and others follow suit? Will we get a new industry of go-between conversion companies replacing the dashboard, and moving everything (including the steering arm) under the hood due to (the traditional) weaker structures on the right side of the car? Expensive!
ANR
For a start, FCA is being taken over by Groupe PSA over the course of this year so they won't be building anything anywhere. Hopefully Jeep will be shut down pronto.

We won't see RHD disappear completely, as every company stepping away from RHD will increase the market share available to other companies which are still doing RHD (this also applies within companies, where they have some dual platforms and some LHD only platforms) and an equilibrium will eventually be reached. What will probably happen is that the choice available in Australia will decrease and RHD models will be even more stripped down versions of the larger market LHD models.

As you rightly point out, conversion of a LHD only platform is difficult and expensive work. There are already companies doing import-and-convert jobs, but they are only applicable for exotic needs (supercars, technology demonstrators, armoured saloon cars etc) and not for normal passenger cars.

I'd predict that Ford will stick with dual platforms and will stay in the Australian market, but that their presence in Australia will soon be downsized to just the same sort of sales/service stuff that other companies such as Mitsubishi have. There's simply no need to have the headcount they have in Australia when they don't build anything here.

If our cars come from countries like South Korea (and China) who are willing to make anything cheaply, and we keep buying Toyotas, will American cars permanently bite our red dust? I guess much depends on what can be made for the British and Japanese markets.
ANR
Yes, American cars will become even more rare in Australia than they are currently. I say good riddance, almost all of them are terrible cars.

Even Tesla will only be an American-based company now that the bulk of production has shifted to China and design/engineering work is due to shift to Germany. The shift to Germany is a smart move, their current strength of PR hype getting in the early adopters will only get them so far and they will need quality design to stay competitive against the big boys.

Anyways, after this transition ends. The existing Holden's will skyrocket in price!
AheadMatthewawsome
I predict that resale value of Holdens will plummet. Too much uncertainty over reliability and the availability of quality servicing.

Apart from a handful of the limited edition HSV versions or certain pre-Commodore cars if kept in pristine condition, Holdens are too ordinary to have collectable value.
  M636C Minister for Railways

It's not just a suggestion, it's been confirmed that GM is not doing any more right hand drive vehicles anywhere. They left the UK/Ireland market a couple of years ago (sold off Opel and Vauxhall to Groupe PSA) are exiting Thailand this year as well as Australia/NZ.
I watched the press conference live.
The GM guy on the podium  there said that right hand drive Corvettes will still be imported to Australia.
Of course you may know more than he does...

Peter
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

I'd predict that Ford will stick with dual platforms and will stay in the Australian market, but that their presence in Australia will soon be downsized to just the same sort of sales/service stuff that other companies such as Mitsubishi have. There's simply no need to have the headcount they have in Australia when they don't build anything here.

If our cars come from countries like South Korea (and China) who are willing to make anything cheaply, and we keep buying Toyotas, will American cars permanently bite our red dust? I guess much depends on what can be made for the British and Japanese markets.
Yes, American cars will become even more rare in Australia than they are currently. I say good riddance, almost all of them are terrible cars.

Even Tesla will only be an American-based company now that the bulk of production has shifted to China and design/engineering work is due to shift to Germany. The shift to Germany is a smart move, their current strength of PR hype getting in the early adopters will only get them so far and they will need quality design to stay competitive against the big boys.
justapassenger
Ford has its team here for a reason, it actually sells stuff, well at least the Ford Ranger, 41,000 units but more importantly the basic design for the Ranger is done in Australia with Australia being one of the key markets. The next model ranger is being designed in Mel as we speak using a VW drive train. However after that the Ranger will share the F150 platform and with that yes the Australian design team will likely be downsized, although how much? Note Mazda also have their own design team to Mazadify the Ranger and they sell only 12,000 or so.

The Colorado sells around 17,000 units in 2019.

Ford Australia also do QA for the Thailand operations, so until Ford trusts the Thai to do it themselves, its run from Melbourne.

Agree, we went a long period with almost no imports of new yank mobiles, then it came back with a rush of blood in the booming dollar days. With the dollar entrenched in the 60's, the yanks mostly giving up making anything other than a "truck" or higher end SUV, I dare say we won't see much Yank stuff apart from Tesla in the near future.

Musk has not shifted the bulk of production to China, the factory there is a fraction of the size of the Yank operations and only makes half the number of Tesla 3's, I believe the X and S are still imported, but not sure. He had to do this to get avoid hefty import tariffs for the world's largest car market.

The German operation is similar, however also remember the bulk of the car assembly line robots are German companies and Tesla already bought one of the leading German robot companies a few years back. Tesla needs to attack the loyal German car buyers at its core. German's don't like buying non-German, the govt is loyal to local manufacturing and hub for alot of car technology with the exception of electric vehicle technology for which Tesla is kicking some German butt off-shore. story
  Big J Deputy Commissioner

Location: In Paradise
It's not just a suggestion, it's been confirmed that GM is not doing any more right hand drive vehicles anywhere. They left the UK/Ireland market a couple of years ago (sold off Opel and Vauxhall to Groupe PSA) are exiting Thailand this year as well as Australia/NZ.
I watched the press conference live.
The GM guy on the podium  there said that right hand drive Corvettes will still be imported to Australia.
Of course you may know more than he does...

Peter
M636C
Yep and his predecessors said that the Australian government's tax payer funded $2B investment will be maintain Australian production for two models.

The same bigwig predecessors that said after manufacturing was over that they will be here in the long run.

The same people negotiating with Supercars on the Gen 3 and only notified them yesterday of their withdrawal.

Yep the same company that have had 3 Managing Directors as in many years. the reason that the last one left, he knew that the call had been made and wanted to leave before he was associated with this announcement.

No, this is an understandable call by GM in the USA a total withdrawal from the RHD market. Nothing to do with Holden. Whoever is here on the big chair has NO say in this decision.

Holden as brand is being dealt with the same way as Pontiac in the US during the GFC and Vauxhall in the UK. Gone.

It is a complete decision by GM to get out of RHD and use that money in Electric vehicle R&D, as Tesla is hurting and Ford has future proofed with Rimac. This is purely a corporate call.

As to them going to bring in a few Corvettes, well I don't think the dealer network will be here to sell it.  I think GM's decision means that while the Corvette has been engineered for RHD, I doubt they will now bother producing it themselves. It might end up the same ops that they do for Camaro and be sold by a single outfit.

I think it more will be clearer once the "transition" plan for dealers is made public.

This is a complete withdrawal from the RHD market. They will not market in Australia any more and that will include Supercars, so that category is in danger.

I won't be seeing bow ties from a dealer next year. They have left the market. Full stop.

This is a complete case study of a multinational stuffing up a brand.

By the way remember these people sell cars. Do you trust a car salesman?

As John Cadogan says, when a person that sells a car and they talk to you, look a the clock and remind yourself it is BS O'clock. All they want to do, quite understandable, is sell you the dream.
  ANR Deputy Commissioner

The future of the Aussie market is that the American auto makers will pull out, eventually. All of them.

We will probably be left with the Korean, Chinese, Indian autos, and of course, Toyotas.

The Europeans may offer us whatever is offered in Japan and UK.

The end.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
This is a complete case study of a multinational stuffing up a brand.
Big J
Nailed it.
  BrentonGolding Chief Commissioner

Location: Maldon Junction
The future of the Aussie market is that the American auto makers will pull out, eventually. All of them.

We will probably be left with the Korean, Chinese, Indian autos, and of course, Toyotas.

The Europeans may offer us whatever is offered in Japan and UK.

The end.
ANR
Eventually is completely open ended. Eventually there will be no car industry as we know it, all self driving EVs which will have no resemblance to what is on the road now. They may even be made in Australia once again as the methods of construction will be completely different.

In the meantime Ford for one isn't going anywhere. They still employ 2000 people in design and RnD in Australia, way more than Holdens do after the shutdown of local production.
  michaelgm Chief Commissioner

The future of the Aussie market is that the American auto makers will pull out, eventually. All of them.

We will probably be left with the Korean, Chinese, Indian autos, and of course, Toyotas.

The Europeans may offer us whatever is offered in Japan and UK.

The end.
Eventually is completely open ended. Eventually there will be no car industry as we know it, all self driving EVs which will have no resemblance to what is on the road now. They may even be made in Australia once again as the methods of construction will be completely different.

In the meantime Ford for one isn't going anywhere. They still employ 2000 people in design and RnD in Australia, way more than Holdens do after the shutdown of local production.
BrentonGolding
Footballs, meat pies, kangaroos, electric cars,,,,,,
  wobert Chief Commissioner

Location: Half way between Propodolla and Kinimakatka
https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2020/02/twas-the-lunatic-rba-that-killed-holden/
  Carnot Chief Commissioner

Ford Australia's Product Development team at present is bigger than it was in the late-1990s.  Back then it was the "Falcon Motor Company", now it's Ranger, along with several other vehicles in emerging markets that are designed and developed here.

The irony is that one of the big reasons GM HQ have killed Holden and are selling its Thai operations to Great Wall is that they need the cash for EV development.  Something the Holden was seriously considering 12 years ago.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The future of the Aussie market is that the American auto makers will pull out, eventually. All of them.

We will probably be left with the Korean, Chinese, Indian autos, and of course, Toyotas.

The Europeans may offer us whatever is offered in Japan and UK.

The end.
Eventually is completely open ended. Eventually there will be no car industry as we know it, all self driving EVs which will have no resemblance to what is on the road now. They may even be made in Australia once again as the methods of construction will be completely different.

In the meantime Ford for one isn't going anywhere. They still employ 2000 people in design and RnD in Australia, way more than Holdens do after the shutdown of local production.
BrentonGolding

The "car" industry is being rebranded the "mobility" industry for a reason. Cars as we know it, ie internal combustion engine, gear box with manual controls are approaching the end of their era in humanity over the coming decade. In other words I think we are at the equivalent of the 1950's in the steam era for trains.

The future is semi and fully-autonomous driven with electric drive train as a min for most passenger vehicles, H2 is likely to play a part on larger vehicles.
  ANR Deputy Commissioner

I think it has come to this because of market saturation. Cars are sitting unsold on dealer lots and people were just not buying any more or at the rate they were previously.

The oversupply caused the problem.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
The future of the Aussie market is that the American auto makers will pull out, eventually. All of them.

We will probably be left with the Korean, Chinese, Indian autos, and of course, Toyotas.

The Europeans may offer us whatever is offered in Japan and UK.

The end.
Eventually is completely open ended. Eventually there will be no car industry as we know it, all self driving EVs which will have no resemblance to what is on the road now. They may even be made in Australia once again as the methods of construction will be completely different.

In the meantime Ford for one isn't going anywhere. They still employ 2000 people in design and RnD in Australia, way more than Holdens do after the shutdown of local production.

The "car" industry is being rebranded the "mobility" industry for a reason. Cars as we know it, ie internal combustion engine, gear box with manual controls are approaching the end of their era in humanity over the coming decade. In other words I think we are at the equivalent of the 1950's in the steam era for trains.

The future is semi and fully-autonomous driven with electric drive train as a min for most passenger vehicles, H2 is likely to play a part on larger vehicles.
RTT_Rules
Who or what is H2, please?
  DJPeters Assistant Commissioner

The writing had been on the wall for a long time. Isuzu has been propping up Holden while the Euro models have been a difficult sell.

There is a lot of history that will go to a museum, I am sure.

It would be great if Holden could branch out into some other manufacturing enterprise, in a similar way it started. Could it make trains or rail infrastructure? I guess the horse bolted when the factory shut down. What has been operating since is a hard sell to cynical consumers who saw the difference between marketing and reality.
ANR
GM got out of making trains well diesel locomotives in America they sold off EMD to company that own Caterpillar so really I could not see them going back into making locomotives in the future. So all new EMD locomotives are really just a Caterpillar under the hood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro-Motive_Diesel
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The future of the Aussie market is that the American auto makers will pull out, eventually. All of them.

We will probably be left with the Korean, Chinese, Indian autos, and of course, Toyotas.

The Europeans may offer us whatever is offered in Japan and UK.

The end.
Eventually is completely open ended. Eventually there will be no car industry as we know it, all self driving EVs which will have no resemblance to what is on the road now. They may even be made in Australia once again as the methods of construction will be completely different.

In the meantime Ford for one isn't going anywhere. They still employ 2000 people in design and RnD in Australia, way more than Holdens do after the shutdown of local production.

The "car" industry is being rebranded the "mobility" industry for a reason. Cars as we know it, ie internal combustion engine, gear box with manual controls are approaching the end of their era in humanity over the coming decade. In other words I think we are at the equivalent of the 1950's in the steam era for trains.

The future is semi and fully-autonomous driven with electric drive train as a min for most passenger vehicles, H2 is likely to play a part on larger vehicles.
Who or what is H2, please?
YM-Mundrabilla
H2 is a gas which forms when two hydrogen atoms bond together and become a hydrogen molecule. H2 is also called molecular hydrogen.It consists of two protons and two electrons. Consequently it is the most common form of Hydrogen because it is stable with a neutral charge

david
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
The future of the Aussie market is that the American auto makers will pull out, eventually. All of them.

We will probably be left with the Korean, Chinese, Indian autos, and of course, Toyotas.

The Europeans may offer us whatever is offered in Japan and UK.

The end.
Eventually is completely open ended. Eventually there will be no car industry as we know it, all self driving EVs which will have no resemblance to what is on the road now. They may even be made in Australia once again as the methods of construction will be completely different.

In the meantime Ford for one isn't going anywhere. They still employ 2000 people in design and RnD in Australia, way more than Holdens do after the shutdown of local production.

The "car" industry is being rebranded the "mobility" industry for a reason. Cars as we know it, ie internal combustion engine, gear box with manual controls are approaching the end of their era in humanity over the coming decade. In other words I think we are at the equivalent of the 1950's in the steam era for trains.

The future is semi and fully-autonomous driven with electric drive train as a min for most passenger vehicles, H2 is likely to play a part on larger vehicles.
Who or what is H2, please?
H2 is a gas which forms when two hydrogen atoms bond together and become a hydrogen molecule. H2 is also called molecular hydrogen.It consists of two protons and two electrons. Consequently it is the most common form of Hydrogen because it is stable with a neutral charge

david
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Who or what is H2, please?
YM-Mundrabilla
H2 is the chemical symbol for Hydrogen. Unfortunately the formatting here prevents me from using the proper format of H (subscript)2, like CO2 should be written, but generally understood regardless.
  YM-Mundrabilla Minister for Railways

Location: Mundrabilla but I'd rather be in Narvik
Who or what is H2, please?
H2 is the chemical symbol for Hydrogen. Unfortunately the formatting here prevents me from using the proper format of H (subscript)2, like CO2 should be written, but generally understood regardless.
RTT_Rules
Like CO2 or CO2 or H2 or H2 do you mean? Or perhaps H2SO4.
Sorry, but I am 'generally' only an old railway man who only speaks English rather than a scientist, engineer or chemist.

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