single xp hauled passenger trains or other locos hauling xpt sets

 
  james.au Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney, NSW
As an interim measure could an XPT set be hauled by other locos?

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  tazzer96 Deputy Commissioner

As an interim measure could an XPT set be hauled by other locos?
james.au
Not in passenger service.  

1.  Wouldn't be able to maintain timetable as its limited to 115 and the yellow boards, not the white which are usually 10km/h higher.

2.  The XPT was designed to not be compatible with alot of other stuff, so you have issues with electrical connections.  

3.  What loco's?  the few 48's that are owned by sydney trains, or are you hiring or leasing.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
As an interim measure could an XPT set be hauled by other locos?
Not in passenger service.  

1.  Wouldn't be able to maintain timetable as its limited to 115 and the yellow boards, not the white which are usually 10km/h higher.

2.  The XPT was designed to not be compatible with alot of other stuff, so you have issues with electrical connections.  

3.  What loco's?  the few 48's that are owned by sydney trains, or are you hiring or leasing.
tazzer96
I believe there was a brief operation to Broken Hill using locos (422?) hauling XPT cars until cancelled and later replaced with XPL DMU.

NSW has had 2 completely incompatible fleets of regional rolling stock for around 30 years now and the situation could have been improved dramatically had there been either 2 more XP power cars or at least a few emergency loco's modified ready to do the job. This issue has been debated "alot" in the NSW group for years.

For example there are up to 15 XP passenger cars, mostly EC class collecting dust due to a reduction in regional travelers, mostly due to poor time tabling trying provide a service to everywhere with limited stock on ancient track alignments. An extra set could have easily been assembled for nothing more than the cost of 2 x XP power cars and refitting of some of the EC cars and then the north coast timetable attractiveness could have been improved dramatically alog with overall timetable ontime running. Due to better flexibility to adsorb late running without the usual knock on effects.

Hell I'd even go further and use the still left over cars to create 3 x Dubbo style sets and allow the Canberra XPL DMU's to be refitted and redeployed to supplementing crowded commuter services. The Canberra service would likely see a small timetable improvement and probably be more appealing with the elimination of booking seating in all but 1st class.

Anyway its mute, as both the XPT and XPL fleets will be replaced by the new single fleet platform regional trains with XPT's sold off and XPL's likely converted to commuter services, so its all a mute point.
  a6et Minister for Railways

As an interim measure could an XPT set be hauled by other locos?
Not in passenger service.  

1.  Wouldn't be able to maintain timetable as its limited to 115 and the yellow boards, not the white which are usually 10km/h higher.

2.  The XPT was designed to not be compatible with alot of other stuff, so you have issues with electrical connections.  

3.  What loco's?  the few 48's that are owned by sydney trains, or are you hiring or leasing.
I believe there was a brief operation to Broken Hill using locos (422?) hauling XPT cars until cancelled and later replaced with XPL DMU.

NSW has had 2 completely incompatible fleets of regional rolling stock for around 30 years now and the situation could have been improved dramatically had there been either 2 more XP power cars or at least a few emergency loco's modified ready to do the job. This issue has been debated "alot" in the NSW group for years.

For example there are up to 15 XP passenger cars, mostly EC class collecting dust due to a reduction in regional travelers, mostly due to poor time tabling trying provide a service to everywhere with limited stock on ancient track alignments. An extra set could have easily been assembled for nothing more than the cost of 2 x XP power cars and refitting of some of the EC cars and then the north coast timetable attractiveness could have been improved dramatically alog with overall timetable ontime running. Due to better flexibility to adsorb late running without the usual knock on effects.

Hell I'd even go further and use the still left over cars to create 3 x Dubbo style sets and allow the Canberra XPL DMU's to be refitted and redeployed to supplementing crowded commuter services. The Canberra service would likely see a small timetable improvement and probably be more appealing with the elimination of booking seating in all but 1st class.

Anyway its mute, as both the XPT and XPL fleets will be replaced by the new single fleet platform regional trains with XPT's sold off and XPL's likely converted to commuter services, so its all a mute point.
RTT_Rules
RTT, when were the XPT cars used to BH with the 422cl?    The old 3 car train that preceded the XPL to BH were the same cars used on the Griffith passenger services on alternate days a week, they were both initially hauled by a captive 81cl.

I don't have the dates but my wife and I travelled to Broken on that train, the normal rostering and working was the Loco hauled set went empty to Orange and was there when the down XPT arrived. On the day we travelled to BH, there was a freight failure and the carriages left in the dock, the engines were sent to rescue the failed freighter, to my surprise there engines sent to rescue the freighter were 42220 SS, and 42204.

These two loco's worked with power connectors that enable one to be taken off line from the leading cab, on the down journey 42220 led to BH with 04 trailing, At Condo a Wolo was put on so we were late into BH, the train stayed there until late the following night which allowed us some sight seeing time.

I personally knew the driver on the train as he was an ex WCK man who went to Parkes at the time of the SG opening, along with myself from WCK, he stayed there and was appointed driver there as well. The inspector, was there for their training for the 422's and to report on the success of the trial. Primarily the trial was to see if the two 422's could do the work required by cutting in and out as needed for grades and flat terrain.

At the time the 81's were considered too valuable and in need compared to the 422's, owing to their abilities to haul more on freight services.

The return trip did not help much as the single line section from Tarana to Wang and we were running late had to wait for over two hours to allow the Down XPT to come over before allowing us to go on so quite late back in Sydney, but we got free lunch courtesy of the SRA.

I understand that the working was pretty much approved but did not last lone. I do have photo's of the train at Condo, and BH somewhere.
  NSWRcars Assistant Commissioner

I believe there was a brief operation to Broken Hill using locos (422?) hauling XPT cars until cancelled and later replaced with XPL DMU.
RTT_Rules
As per a6et's post, XPT trailers were never used on the Broken Hill run - loco-hauled cars were refurbished for this train. The main issue with loco-hauling XPT cars is lack of suitable power vans (or Head End Power equipped locos) to run lights, air-con, etc.
  a6et Minister for Railways

I believe there was a brief operation to Broken Hill using locos (422?) hauling XPT cars until cancelled and later replaced with XPL DMU.
As per a6et's post, XPT trailers were never used on the Broken Hill run - loco-hauled cars were refurbished for this train. The main issue with loco-hauling XPT cars is lack of suitable power vans (or Head End Power equipped locos) to run lights, air-con, etc.
NSWRcars
It would be possible IF, there was any of the old power vans used on AC trains.  The other constraint I would see is that while it would be with the XPT power car and the lack of traction it could have with only 4T/M's for traction again the caveat would be how many carriages would be used.

We know the Dubbo service frequently runs with only one Power unit and is reversed at Dubbo for the return, and has the steepest grades on the mountains to contend with but, how much each carriage weighs compared to say any of the HUB/RUB type cars.

In reality, there is only one other spot (that I can think of anyway) for a single XPT hauled train that could have turning facilities available would be Casino if the old triangle was still in operating condition.  It could therefore theoretically be possible to have a service similar to the Dubbo one on the NCL.  As winter approaches and pax numbers down it could be a breathing space as the derailed trains carriages and the power car repaired.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I believe there was a brief operation to Broken Hill using locos (422?) hauling XPT cars until cancelled and later replaced with XPL DMU.
As per a6et's post, XPT trailers were never used on the Broken Hill run - loco-hauled cars were refurbished for this train. The main issue with loco-hauling XPT cars is lack of suitable power vans (or Head End Power equipped locos) to run lights, air-con, etc.
NSWRcars
Thanks for correct guys, had it in my head they did.


As I mentioned in my post, if the will was there to build backup loco's for the XPT fleet, it could have happened. Whether they buy something existing and modify or build from scratch, less likely. Ideally there should have been two more XP's built 20 years ago.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
As an interim measure could an XPT set be hauled by other locos?


3.  What loco's?  the few 48's that are owned by sydney trains, or are you hiring or leasing.
tazzer96
I don't think anyone would propose the 48 class and yes hire/lease/buy is more realistic.

N-class,  if V/line was able to release a couple? After SG conversion how hard is it to modify the control / power systems to connect to the XPT cars?

Could therefore be easily used on Dubbo and/or NCL service?
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Copied from: XPT Train accident Wallan   https://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11400959-0-asc-s50.htm in case these two poster did not repost here. Dthead
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XAM2175

Was it not the case that the XP powercars deliberately use an incompatible multiple-unit control system, with the intent at the time being to stop them being "stolen" for freight service?

Nevertheless you could physically couple XPT cars to a "normal" loco and pull them about, sure, so long as you could run the loco about at the far end or had another one forming a push-pull set.

Onboard power would be the other big technical issue to consider - I'm not sure if the XPT cars are compatible with power vans like PHNs and PHAs, assuming they could even get their hands on one.

Unfortunate reality is that buses are the tried and tested backup and there's not much likely to change that Sad XAM2175



A6ET

XPT power cars had special couplers in the nose that allowed them to be hauled by a diesel. The Jumper arrangement was incompatable though.  But there would not be any reason an XPT power car could not pull other carriages and freight vehicles, as you can cut the EP brake feature out and operate totally on the air for braking and stopping.  We did that with the EP brakes on the XPT when doing our qualification trials when being trained for them.  Rather than using the EP only option the reason we had to use non EP was in case of the EP failure and/or when EP brakes stuck, only way to release the brakes then was to cut the EP out and use the air for several stops and then go back to EP. reporting it in the log book though.
  Heihachi_73 Chief Commissioner

Location: Terminating at Ringwood
I believe there was a brief operation to Broken Hill using locos (422?) hauling XPT cars until cancelled and later replaced with XPL DMU.
As per a6et's post, XPT trailers were never used on the Broken Hill run - loco-hauled cars were refurbished for this train. The main issue with loco-hauling XPT cars is lack of suitable power vans (or Head End Power equipped locos) to run lights, air-con, etc.
NSWRcars
Do they need more power compared to regular loco-hauled passenger cars? Us Mexicans have been using power vans/HEP-equipped locos with passenger cars for decades (notably the H sets, which were ironically nicknamed the poor man's XPT when run with locos either end).
  a6et Minister for Railways

I believe there was a brief operation to Broken Hill using locos (422?) hauling XPT cars until cancelled and later replaced with XPL DMU.
As per a6et's post, XPT trailers were never used on the Broken Hill run - loco-hauled cars were refurbished for this train. The main issue with loco-hauling XPT cars is lack of suitable power vans (or Head End Power equipped locos) to run lights, air-con, etc.
Do they need more power compared to regular loco-hauled passenger cars? Us Mexicans have been using power vans/HEP-equipped locos with passenger cars for decades (notably the H sets, which were ironically nicknamed the poor man's XPT when run with locos either end).
Heihachi_73
That depends on comparing like for like.   What is the HP & how many traction motors has the loco hauling the train and the load of the train overall, also terrain would need to be included.

The XPT is IIRC 2000Hp, and only has 4 wheel bogies meaning 4 Traction motors. Most diesel loco's have probably the same HP or a bit higher, and 6 wheel bogie meaning 6 TM's overall, on that comparison the XPT loses out, but given one Power car on the XPT over the Blue Mountains on 1:30/32 grades hauling 5 cars seem to do ok under normal conditions.

The biggest issue I had when driving them yonks ago was the standing start on grades in adverse weather conditions, where you had to nurse them a bit to get going, that also applied even on level tracks at times.  As I worked at Werris Creek on them, we had 1:40 grades on the Northern Tablelands, and over the Liverpool range, also those grades were there between Sydney and Broadmeadow.  The Northern Tablelands and Liverpool range were more issues in winter especially the New England owing to ice/frost on the tracks.
  lkernan Deputy Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
I believe there was a brief operation to Broken Hill using locos (422?) hauling XPT cars until cancelled and later replaced with XPL DMU.
As per a6et's post, XPT trailers were never used on the Broken Hill run - loco-hauled cars were refurbished for this train. The main issue with loco-hauling XPT cars is lack of suitable power vans (or Head End Power equipped locos) to run lights, air-con, etc.
Do they need more power compared to regular loco-hauled passenger cars? Us Mexicans have been using power vans/HEP-equipped locos with passenger cars for decades (notably the H sets, which were ironically nicknamed the poor man's XPT when run with locos either end).
That depends on comparing like for like.   What is the HP & how many traction motors has the loco hauling the train and the load of the train overall, also terrain would need to be included.

The XPT is IIRC 2000Hp, and only has 4 wheel bogies meaning 4 Traction motors. Most diesel loco's have probably the same HP or a bit higher, and 6 wheel bogie meaning 6 TM's overall, on that comparison the XPT loses out, but given one Power car on the XPT over the Blue Mountains on 1:30/32 grades hauling 5 cars seem to do ok under normal conditions.

The biggest issue I had when driving them yonks ago was the standing start on grades in adverse weather conditions, where you had to nurse them a bit to get going, that also applied even on level tracks at times.  As I worked at Werris Creek on them, we had 1:40 grades on the Northern Tablelands, and over the Liverpool range, also those grades were there between Sydney and Broadmeadow.  The Northern Tablelands and Liverpool range were more issues in winter especially the New England owing to ice/frost on the tracks.
a6et
I think he means head end power requirements for the coaches.
Are the XPT coaches any different in that respect to say, a Victorian H set?
  NSWRcars Assistant Commissioner

I think he means head end power requirements for the coaches.
Are the XPT coaches any different in that respect to say, a Victorian H set?
lkernan
Regardless of electrical compatibility, there simply aren't any HEP locos or power vans lying around, waiting to be hired or pressed into NSW TrainLink service. This stuff would have to be set up, and after all that's done, you have a speed restricted loco that is less suitable than an XP.

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