| home |
|
| news |
|
| discussions |
|
| content |
|
| site |
|
|
| technical support | Need Help? Lodge a support ticket!
Note: This is for technical support only. General questions about railways should be posted to the Forums.donation 
Please Donate!photo comp Have YOU voted yet on Photo of the Month?
Click Here!
Voting Closes 31/12search |
| |
| Author |
Message |
Riccardo
Minister for Railways
Joined: Aug 20, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 4, 2008
Location: Elsewhere
contact
|
post
|
|
|
 |
ninthnotch
Dr Beeching
Joined: May 25, 2003
Last Visited: May 16, 2007
Location: Not here. Try another castle.
contact
|
post
|
|
Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:10 am
|
| Riccardo wrote: | There has always been a segmentation between middle and upper class rail enthusiasm and the working class.
You only have to see in the UK - people buying locomotives, huge donations to societies etc - at one end of the scale and 'anorak-dom' at the other. |
To an extent I agree - especially evident with fantrips. That having been said, a lot of locomotives in Australia have been obtained by lobbying - a large perbcentage of the ARHS Vic steam locos were obtained by pressure on VR management in the 1960's.
| Riccardo wrote: | | These on-line forums seem to have hit the divide between the rail employees and the rest, I presume along similar lines. |
There are rail employees on a lot of the forums in Australia, one of the more popular email-based ones is run by an FA driver. They don't choose to mention it on the forums.
| Riccardo wrote: | | There seem to be few rail managers or professionals involved in the hobby - I speculate they generally have some sort of contempt for rail and have ended up in the job because of the flow of 'bean-counters' into managerial/administrative roles but could just as quickly work for the road lobby or government treasuries if the price was right. |
A lot of the management gunzels also would, in this era of privatisation, be governed by commercial-in-confidence rules as part of their terms of employment. They do exist, believe me. I have called on one or two in the past to save some stuff.
| Riccardo wrote: | This leaves the drivers, station staff etc. My characterisation is that the values we see, and some of which grate on me are:
-know it all (and others don't) and think that all arguments hinge on eg whether the driving cab of a B2 is better than a Citadis - bugger the passengers |
That attitude is everywhere - try working for a bank if you want to see the attitude of 'bugger the customers'!
| Riccardo wrote: | | -excessive parochialism (maybe they travel interstate and overseas less than professionals) |
Management are also prone to this. This is more human nature though.
| Riccardo wrote: | | -belief that rail "owes them a living" |
The attitude of quite a few who were employed by the public service. One of the big gulfs I have seemn wioth ex-Gov't workers and those who have spent their time in the employ of the private sector is the notion held by private sector workers that their actions, in a asmall way, have an impact on whether a business survives. Government employees can at least know that at the most all their actions may relate to is the changing of the Minister that runs the department.
| Riccardo wrote: | | -classic gunzel/anorak problems eg who cares when the first X-class went for wheel grinding in Sydney. Or the problem they had at qrhistory with people reporting normal EMU sightings |
I think I have mentioned Asperger's syndrome in another thread. While I am sure the minutiae of rail is very boring for a lot of people (including myself), bear in mind that a lot of this is a documented psychological disorder, and a degree of tolerance is required. I've also learnt that if I am chasing a train, the people who note and remember when every train has run suddenly prove very useful...
| Riccardo wrote: | | -racism, sexism, filthy language and homophobia |
That is unacceptable anywhere in a well-run forum, although I have been known to swear. A lot. But there are places and times...
All in all I like these points, and really they do need examining within ourselves and within others.
That's an attention-getter!
|
|
|
John of Melbourne
The Ghost of George Stephenson
Joined: Jan 30, 2003
Last Visited: Oct 16, 2007
Location: Melbourne suburbs
contact
|
post
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:48 am
|
| Riccardo wrote: | | ... and homophobia |
I hope by this you mean an irrational fear of homosexuals rather than a reasoned objection to homosexuality.
|
|
|
ninthnotch
Dr Beeching
Joined: May 25, 2003
Last Visited: May 16, 2007
Location: Not here. Try another castle.
contact
|
post
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:40 am
|
| John of Melbourne wrote: | | Riccardo wrote: | | ... and homophobia |
I hope by this you mean an irrational fear of homosexuals rather than a reasoned objection to homosexuality. |
I have been told by queer friends of mine there is a difference between homophobia and a reasoned objection to homosexuality:
Homophobia is exactly as John described - an irrational fear of homosexuals (usually from men as a reaction to homosexual men - I know people who are as homophobic as all get out, still like smeg with lesbians, however, this is not a generalisation) sometimes stemming from religious or social values instilled in the child or a bad reaction to an attraction to the same sex (a few gay guys I know through my work were gay-bashers themselves) or other factors, such as sexual abuse by an older person of the same gender.
John - the correct term for a reasoned objection to homosexuality is known as 'heterosexism'. It can be based on a rational heterosexual orientation or it can be based on a reasonable interpretation of religious beliefs, or it could have a moral basis. Either way, if people have a
reasonable dislike or objection to homosexuality (or heterosexuality), so long as it is not derogatory or would be offensive to a reasonable cross-section of society, a heterosexist viewpoint is acceptable, as no-one should have a say iin what opinions you draw.
That's an attention-getter!
|
|
|
mjja
Sir Nigel Gresley
Joined: Jan 13, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 4, 2008
Location: Mount Waverley, Melbourne
contact
|
post
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 11:13 am
|
| ninthnotch wrote: | | Riccardo wrote: | There has always been a segmentation between middle and upper class rail enthusiasm and the working class.
You only have to see in the UK - people buying locomotives, huge donations to societies etc - at one end of the scale and 'anorak-dom' at the other. |
To an extent I agree - especially evident with fantrips. That having been said, a lot of locomotives in Australia have been obtained by lobbying - a large perbcentage of the ARHS Vic steam locos were obtained by pressure on VR management in the 1960's. |
Actually it's not that simple - in the 1960s the VR commissioners were railfans - George Brown for instance worked his way to Chairman of Commissioners from an apprentice. He used to ride with the drivers on the way to work and they'd talk to him about the state of the railways, and he'd get the drivers' view of everything he was doing. He also acted on that sort of thing, so it wasn't necessary to put pressure on him to do something.
Back on topic.
I think we need to accept each other's railfanning habits without criticism - if they like it, let them go! If someone wants to know when the first X got its wheels turned in Sydney, it's very clever of them. If someone else doesn't care, that's fine too.
HOWEVER. The other things mentioned, bad language, etc, are not acceptable in any context. They do not constitute a part of railfanning activities and should not be tolerated here any more than anywhere else.
Happy Gunzelling and remember, "Go by rail!"
Michael Angelico
President, Smart Passengers Inc
(My opinions are my own unless specifically stated.)
|
|
|
John of Melbourne
The Ghost of George Stephenson
Joined: Jan 30, 2003
Last Visited: Oct 16, 2007
Location: Melbourne suburbs
contact
|
post
|
|
|
Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2003 2:00 am
|
| ninthnotch wrote: | | John of Melbourne wrote: | | Riccardo wrote: | | ... and homophobia |
I hope by this you mean an irrational fear of homosexuals rather than a reasoned objection to homosexuality. |
I have been told by queer friends of mine there is a difference between homophobia and a reasoned objection to homosexuality:
Homophobia is exactly as John described - an irrational fear of homosexuals (usually from men as a reaction to homosexual men - I know people who are as homophobic as all get out, still like smeg with lesbians, however, this is not a generalisation) sometimes stemming from religious or social values instilled in the child or a bad reaction to an attraction to the same sex (a few gay guys I know through my work were gay-bashers themselves) or other factors, such as sexual abuse by an older person of the same gender.
John - the correct term for a reasoned objection to homosexuality is known as 'heterosexism'. It can be based on a rational heterosexual orientation or it can be based on a reasonable interpretation of religious beliefs, or it could have a moral basis. Either way, if people have a
reasonable dislike or objection to homosexuality (or heterosexuality), so long as it is not derogatory or would be offensive to a reasonable cross-section of society, a heterosexist viewpoint is acceptable, as no-one should have a say iin what opinions you draw. |
You are the first person I have ever heard say something like that. In the media almost everybody that says anything against homosexuality is autmatically labelled homophobic and I have also seen comments indicating that no objection to homosexuality is acceptable. Thanks for the breath of fresh air on this matter.
|
|
|
|
|
All times are GMT + 10 Hours
|
You cannot post new threads in this forum
You cannot reply to threads in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB 2.0.6 © 2001 phpBB Group
Theme images and concept © 2004 by Michael Greenhill and Railpage, All Rights Reserved.
Version 2.0.6 of PHP-Nuke Port by Tom Nitzschner © 2002 www.toms-home.com
|
|
