Railway Archaeology Quiz #4

 
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

Is it Spencer N Geelong Ballarat Maryborough Castlemaine Bendigo Inglewood Dunolly Maryborough Ararat Horsham E Natimuk Hamilton Penshurst Koroit Warnambool Irrewarra Cressy Linton Junction Ballarat Spencer St inner viaduct Flinders Rushall Royal Park Spencer outer viaduct Flinders (City Loop) once more through Spencer outer circle Fairfield Clifton Hill back through Flinders one more pair of tracks to Spencer
Riccardo

Bendigo-Inglewood-Dunolly requires a reversal at Inglewood, and Warrnambool-Irrewarra-Cressy requires a reversal at Irrewarra

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  John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs
Probably a trick question but I will fire away
"Riccardo"
It's not intended to be, but it could be a bit tricky!
pre 1956
"Riccardo"
The year doesn't matter.  You can include lines that were open at different times.
sorry missed the bit about starting at Spencer St.
"Riccardo"
Yep, you sure did.
Is it Spencer N Geelong Ballarat Maryborough Castlemaine Bendigo Inglewood Dunolly ...
"Riccardo"
Nope.  That's a reversal at Inglewood.
...Maryborough Ararat Horsham E Natimuk Hamilton Penshurst Koroit Warnambool Irrewarra Cressy Linton Junction Ballarat Spencer St inner viaduct Flinders Rushall Royal Park Spencer outer viaduct Flinders (City Loop) once more through Spencer outer circle Fairfield Clifton Hill ...
"Riccardo"
Huh?  You lost me there with the outer circle bit.
...back through Flinders one more pair of tracks to Spencer
"Riccardo"
One reversal plus one bit you lost me.  Try again. Smile
Now this is different. And if I were keen enough, I'd be using my map measurer to assist. But here's a route I've come up with. I'm assuming that when all these lines were open, they were all broad gauge too.
"B 67"
I don't think you will need a map measurer, but it may help with an option or two.  They were all broad gauge.
I just noticed I missed an important rule. No reversing directions.
"B 67"
Didn't they teach you in school about reading the question properly?   Smile
Bendigo-Inglewood-Dunolly requires a reversal at Inglewood, and Warrnambool-Irrewarra-Cressy requires a reversal at Irrewarra
"duttonbay"
Warrnambool-Irrewarra-Cressy does not require a reversal at Irrewarra
  Riccardo Minister for Railways

Location: Gone. Don't bother PMing here.
That's the trick - I forgot that Bendigo to Heathcote was a junction approached from the south. So to reverse at Bendigo just go to Heathcote SmileSmile

Is it Spencer Bacchus M Ballarat Maryborough Castlemaine Bendigo Heathcote Broadmeadows Sunshine Brooklyn Werribee N Geelong, Lal lal, Ballarat, Ararat, Horsham E Natimuk Hamilton Penshurst Koroit Warnambool Irrewarra Cressy Linton Junction Ballarat Spencer St inner viaduct Flinders Rushall Royal Park Spencer outer old viaduct to Flinders Parliament, once more through Spencer on inner old viaduct pair then  Camberwell Alamein Hughesdale, using the Rosstown to Elsternwick else back through  Caulfield to Flinders on 1970s viaduct tracks to Spencer
  Nexas The Ghost of George Stephenson

That's the trick - I forgot that Bendigo to Heathcote was a junction approached from the south. So to reverse at Bendigo just go to Heathcote SmileSmile

Is it Spencer Bacchus M Ballarat Maryborough Castlemaine Bendigo Heathcote Broadmeadows Sunshine Brooklyn Werribee N Geelong, Lal lal, Ballarat, Ararat, Horsham E Natimuk Hamilton Penshurst Koroit Warnambool Irrewarra Cressy Linton Junction Ballarat Spencer St inner viaduct Flinders Rushall Royal Park Spencer outer old viaduct to Flinders Parliament, once more through Spencer on inner old viaduct pair then  Camberwell Alamein Hughesdale, using the Rosstown to Elsternwick else back through  Caulfield to Flinders on 1970s viaduct tracks to Spencer
"Riccardo"


You go from Spencer Street to Ballarat and then later from Ballarat to Spencer Street. You can't use the same tracks twice.

You would need to reverse at Hughesdale wouldn't you?
  B 67 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland
I just noticed I missed an important rule. No reversing directions.
"B 67"
Didn't they teach you in school about reading the question properly?   Smile
"John of Melbourne"

Yes, they did actually. I even passed that quiz they give out that says "Read all questions before completing any" and then has a whole lot of strange things getting the class to yell out their name loudly, run around the room and otherwise make fools of themselves. Then the last one says to ignore all the previous questions and just write your name at the top of the page and you are done.  So you finish long before the rest of the class while they make fools of themselves and accuse me of not doing the test properly.   Laughing
But I did somehow overlook that part of the question.

Perhaps something along the lines of the following is more likely.

Spencer St - Tottenham (goods line) - Newport - Nth Geelong (via Altona I guess) - Ballarat - Maryborough - Castlemaine - Bendigo - Heathcote Jcn - Albion - Nth Melbourne (I'm sure there's sufficient lines to come back on another set and be within the rules) - Spencer St (via loop for those few extra km's).  Not quite as adventurous as my previous attempt, but less rules broken I think. I'm not sure of the track layouts at some locations, so I may have inadvertantly put a reversal in. I'm sure I'll be told if I have.
Wink
  John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs
That's the trick - I forgot that Bendigo to Heathcote was a junction approached from the south. So to reverse at Bendigo just go to Heathcote SmileSmile

Is it Spencer Bacchus M Ballarat Maryborough Castlemaine Bendigo Heathcote Broadmeadows Sunshine Brooklyn Werribee N Geelong, Lal lal, Ballarat, ...
"Riccardo"
Oops.  That's the second time you've been over the Warrenheip - Ballarat section.
...Ararat, Horsham E Natimuk Hamilton Penshurst Koroit Warnambool Irrewarra Cressy Linton Junction ...
"Riccardo"
And the second time over the Linton Junction - North Ballarat Junction section.
...Ballarat Spencer St ...
"Riccardo"
BZZZZT!   Strike three.  That's the third time over the Ballarat North Junction - Warrenheip section, and the second time over the Warrenheip  - Sunshine section!
inner viaduct Flinders Rushall Royal Park Spencer outer old viaduct to Flinders Parliament, once more through Spencer on inner old viaduct pair then  Camberwell Alamein Hughesdale, using the Rosstown to Elsternwick else back through  Caulfield to Flinders on 1970s viaduct tracks to Spencer
"Riccardo"
The Rosstown Railway doesn't count.  I used it in the example, but the rules said that it had to be a VR or successor line.  The Rosstown railway actually joined at Oakleigh, and even the Outer Circle's official junction was Oakleigh as Hughesdale didn't exist then.  I suppose with the rules I gave this latter point doesn't matter, but as Nexas said, it requires a reversal.

I should clarify one of the rules.  When I allowed "trivial exceptions...such as within station limits", I was thinking of what would historically be considered station limits, not what may me considered station limits today with remote interlockings.  Thus your first two trips through Sunshine were okay, but your three trips through Ballarat constitute more than the exception would allow.

Try again!
Didn't they teach you in school about reading the question properly?
"I"
Yes, they did actually. I even passed that quiz they give out that says "Read all questions before completing any" and then has a whole lot of strange things getting the class to yell out their name loudly, run around the room and otherwise make fools of themselves. Then the last one says to ignore all the previous questions and just write your name at the top of the page and you are done.
"B 67"
I must admit I failed that one. EmbarassedSad  I was reading the questions rather than answering them, but when I got to the one about yelling out my name, I thought that was part of reading them, not answering them!  But as I was the fastest reader, I did it first and everybody else followed my lead!
Spencer St - Tottenham (goods line) - Newport - Nth Geelong (via Altona I guess) - Ballarat - Maryborough - Castlemaine - Bendigo - Heathcote Jcn - Albion - Nth Melbourne (I'm sure there's sufficient lines to come back on another set and be within the rules) - Spencer St (via loop for those few extra km's).
"B 67"
The good news:  You broke no rules.  And including the little bits via Tottenham, Altona, and the loop is good.
The bad news:  It's not the longest possible journey.
  Riccardo Minister for Railways

Location: Gone. Don't bother PMing here.
I suppose I don't get another go - but just felt like adding B67 could add once round of the inner circle and once round of the City Loop to any intinerary that hasn't already included them for extra distance - there being 3 pairs of lines from Spencer to Flinders

As for Warrenheip - that is now a separate section so I could split hairs on that one - but the other 2 are a fair call.
  Riccardo Minister for Railways

Location: Gone. Don't bother PMing here.
Final comment: Much easier in NSW 🙂🙂
  Nexas The Ghost of George Stephenson

I'll probably be wrong, but i'll borrow B67 and add a bit on...

Spencer St - Tottenham (goods line) - Newport - Nth Geelong (via Altona I guess) - Ballarat - Maryborough - Castlemaine - Bendigo - Heathcote Jcn - Albion - Nth Melbourne - Spencer Street - East Malvern - Outer Circle - Clifton Hill - Jolimont - Clifton Hill Loop - Spencer Street - Flinders Street - Northern Loop - Spencer Street

Italic Bits Added On By Me
  B 67 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland
Didn't they teach you in school about reading the question properly?
"I"
Yes, they did actually. I even passed that quiz they give out that says "Read all questions before completing any" and then has a whole lot of strange things getting the class to yell out their name loudly, run around the room and otherwise make fools of themselves. Then the last one says to ignore all the previous questions and just write your name at the top of the page and you are done.
"B 67"
I must admit I failed that one. EmbarassedSad  I was reading the questions rather than answering them, but when I got to the one about yelling out my name, I thought that was part of reading them, not answering them!  But as I was the fastest reader, I did it first and everybody else followed my lead!
"John of Melbourne"

Okay, I suppose I should confess. I only passed it the SECOND TIME - after I my family moved and I went to a different school, where we had the same test. It was still a great feeling being the only one (and the 'new kid' at that) who passed.
Spencer St - Tottenham (goods line) - Newport - Nth Geelong (via Altona I guess) - Ballarat - Maryborough - Castlemaine - Bendigo - Heathcote Jcn - Albion - Nth Melbourne (I'm sure there's sufficient lines to come back on another set and be within the rules) - Spencer St (via loop for those few extra km's).
"B 67"
The good news:  You broke no rules.  And including the little bits via Tottenham, Altona, and the loop is good.
The bad news:  It's not the longest possible journey.
"John of Melbourne"

Well, not breaking any rules is a good start. I did wonder how to include the inner circle. I forgot about the multiple sets of tracks that would probably allow that somehow (I'm not really as familiar with the track layouts as I should be). But I assume I need more than that to get the correct answer. Am I out a little bit or a lot? Like 2km or 200km?  Smile
  B 67 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland
I'll probably be wrong, but i'll borrow B67 and add a bit on...

Spencer St - Tottenham (goods line) - Newport - Nth Geelong (via Altona I guess) - Ballarat - Maryborough - Castlemaine - Bendigo - Heathcote Jcn - Albion - Nth Melbourne - Spencer Street - East Malvern - Outer Circle - Clifton Hill - Jolimont - Clifton Hill Loop - Spencer Street - Flinders Street - Northern Loop - Spencer Street

Italic Bits Added On By Me
"Nexas"


I was certain you had it for a moment. But I'm not sure it was possible to get onto the Outer Circle that way without reversing. To the best of my knowledge (far from perfect) it wasn't.
  Nexas The Ghost of George Stephenson

I'll probably be wrong, but i'll borrow B67 and add a bit on...

Spencer St - Tottenham (goods line) - Newport - Nth Geelong (via Altona I guess) - Ballarat - Maryborough - Castlemaine - Bendigo - Heathcote Jcn - Albion - Nth Melbourne - Spencer Street - East Malvern - Outer Circle - Clifton Hill - Jolimont - Clifton Hill Loop - Spencer Street - Flinders Street - Northern Loop - Spencer Street

Italic Bits Added On By Me
"Nexas"


I was certain you had it for a moment. But I'm not sure it was possible to get onto the Outer Circle that way without reversing. To the best of my knowledge (far from perfect) it wasn't.
"B 67"


I used to have a map of all the closed lines in Melbourne, and IIRC there was a connection, but I could be wrong.

Anyway If I get it right, i'll let you ask the next one, since I don't know anything about this sort of stuff.
  B 67 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland
I'll probably be wrong, but i'll borrow B67 and add a bit on...

Spencer St - Tottenham (goods line) - Newport - Nth Geelong (via Altona I guess) - Ballarat - Maryborough - Castlemaine - Bendigo - Heathcote Jcn - Albion - Nth Melbourne - Spencer Street - East Malvern - Outer Circle - Clifton Hill - Jolimont - Clifton Hill Loop - Spencer Street - Flinders Street - Northern Loop - Spencer Street

Italic Bits Added On By Me
"Nexas"


I was certain you had it for a moment. But I'm not sure it was possible to get onto the Outer Circle that way without reversing. To the best of my knowledge (far from perfect) it wasn't.
"B 67"




I used to have a map of all the closed lines in Melbourne, and IIRC there was a connection, but I could be wrong.

Anyway If I get it right, i'll let you ask the next one, since I don't know anything about this sort of stuff.
"Nexas"


I didn't think I knew much about this sort of thing either.  Wink   I thought I was doing well to get to ask one question. I just seem to have got a small run of them lately. I'm not sure the first one I really deserved though.  Perhaps you should start thinking of a question - just in case.  Smile
  John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs
I suppose I don't get another go...
"Riccardo"
Why not?  I don't mind.
... - but just felt like adding B67 could add once round of the inner circle and once round of the City Loop to any intinerary that hasn't already included them for extra distance - there being 3 pairs of lines from Spencer to Flinders

As for Warrenheip - that is now a separate section so I could split hairs on that one - but the other 2 are a fair call.
"Riccardo"
Yes, I guess that I might have to concede the Warrenheip bit.
Final comment: Much easier in NSW
"Riccardo"
Yes, I was thinking that N.S.W. may be the only other state where you could do this sort of thing to any significant extent, although I don't know all the other states well enough.  You may be able to in Queensland if the starting and finishing point is not in Brisbane, and there may be a possibility in W.A., but that would be about it, I think.
I'll probably be wrong, but i'll borrow B67 and add a bit on...

Spencer St - Tottenham (goods line) - Newport - Nth Geelong (via Altona I guess) - Ballarat - Maryborough - Castlemaine - Bendigo - Heathcote Jcn - Albion - Nth Melbourne - Spencer Street - East Malvern - Outer Circle ...
"Nexas"
Nope, that's a reversal (at Waverley Road, actually.  See below).
- Clifton Hill - Jolimont - Clifton Hill Loop - Spencer Street - Flinders Street - Northern Loop - Spencer Street
"Nexas"
Nope, the Northern Loop doesn't come out at Spencer Street - it emerges at North Melbourne heading away from the city.
Am I out a little bit or a lot? Like 2km or 200km?
"B 67"
A lot.  Hint:  Look at some of the earlier suggestions; parts of them you didn't include are correct.
But I'm not sure it was possible to get onto the Outer Circle that way without reversing. To the best of my knowledge (far from perfect) it wasn't.
"B 67"
I used to have a map of all the closed lines in Melbourne, and IIRC there was a connection, but I could be wrong.
"Nexas"
On the same day in 1890, lines from Camberwell and Burnley to Oakleigh were opened.  Waverley Road was the junction of the two lines, just south east of the current East Malvern Station, but East Malvern wasn't there then.  The junction faced up trains.
The Ashburton and Darling to Oakleigh sections closed soon after.  In 1929, there was a small extension from Darling to East Malvern, followed soon after by the extension to Glen Waverley.
Anyway If I get it right, i'll let you ask the next one,
"Nexas"
Perhaps you should start thinking of a question - just in case.
"B 67"
It's still anybody's game.

Another clue.  If you are really struggling to know what existed, check out the maps at http://pigfish.vic.cmis.csiro.au/~ajw/VRMaps/index.html.

Actually, this question is more a test of analytical skills than knowledge - if you have access to suitable maps showing all the old lines.
  B 67 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland
I can now see that I am out a lot. I've never been to Hamilton, but I've just found out that the branches came in different directions to what I had thought. So instead of my earlier attempt going from Geelong to Ballarat, it seems I could go to Hamilton via Warrnambool - East Natimuk - Ararat - Maryborough. And continue from there as I said before. That is certainly a lot of extra distance. But I suspect that still isn't the answer. So I'll spend more time on this tomorrow.
  B 67 Chief Commissioner

Location: Central Gippsland
Hmmm! On second thought. Scrap the Geelong - Warrnambool part. I can already see several alternatives. But not sure which is longer.
From Tottenham. How about straight to Ballarat, then to Cressy - Geelong, THEN Warrnambool etc.
If I'm not right, I may be helping someone get the right answer. Smile
  Nexas The Ghost of George Stephenson

Nope, the Northern Loop doesn't come out at Spencer Street - it emerges at North Melbourne heading away from the city.
"John of Melbourne"


Lol, I knew that, but wasn't thinking properly when I was making the trip longer!
  Nexas The Ghost of George Stephenson

I'll have my own turn now...

Spencer Street
Newport
Altona
Geelong
Warrnambool
Hamilton
East Natimuk
Ararat
Maryborough
Bendigo
Heathcote
Broadmeadows
North Melbourne
Northern Loop
Flinders Street
Spencer Street
Goods Lines
Sunshine
Ballarat
Creswick
Carlsruhe
Sunbury
Sunshine
Spencer Street
Flinders Street
Jolimont
Rushall
Royal Park
Spencer Street
Flinders Street
City Circle Loop
Spencer Street
  Riccardo Minister for Railways

Location: Gone. Don't bother PMing here.
Sorry Nexas, reversed at Daylesford. See thread on Tourist Railways Quiz

Have you considered the Lancefield loop?
  Nexas The Ghost of George Stephenson

Sorry Nexas, reversed at Daylesford. See thread on Tourist Railways Quiz

Have you considered the Lancefield loop?
"Riccardo"


Damn!

Yes I did consider the Lancefield line, but it joins at Kilmore and i've already gone through there, and would be going back over my tracks.
  Nexas The Ghost of George Stephenson

Ok here's my updated try

Spencer Street
Newport
Altona
Geelong (via east line)
Warrnambool
Hamilton
East Natimuk
Ararat
Maryborough
Bendigo
Heathcote
Broadmeadows
North Melbourne
Flinders Street (via Northern Loop Tunnel and Platform 5)
Spencer Street (via Northern Loop Viaduct)
Sunshine
Ballarat
Cressy
Gheringhap
Newport (via West Line)
Tottenham
Spencer Street (via Goods Lines)
Flinders Street (via City Circle Loop Viaduct and Platform 1)
Jolimont
Rushall
Royal Park
Spencer Street
Flinders Street (via Burnley Loop Viaduct and Platform 2)
Spencer Street (via City Circle Loop Tunnel)
  Riccardo Minister for Railways

Location: Gone. Don't bother PMing here.
Reply

Yes that's right - Lancefield used a bit of the Heathcote line and of course the whole of the line from Broadmeadows which you've already used. So no good if you're already going via Heathcote.

I think if you've transited from Ballarat Area to Bendigo area, you can only do it once. From Ararat to Maryborough hasn't got a mention yet but given I don't know the layout of Maryborough yard, and direction t/f Castlemaine I'm not game to venture it.

I suspect roughly the game plan is to:

Go via Altona and Warnambool for a loop round to Horsham, Maryborough and Bendigo and back down the Sydney Main, then once round North Fitzroy anti-clockwise then the City Loop, then you can let those cylinders cool. Once you've been to N Geelong you can't go back nor can you really do Ballarat twice if you count Ballarat/N Ballarat/Linton Junction as a stretch of line rather than one locality. You also can't go to Bendigo more than once.

So the big loop plus Inner Circle and City Loop is really it.

You could make it easier by exempting that Ballarat stretch, N Geelong-Gheringap, and not getting too fussy around Sunshine.
  Nexas The Ghost of George Stephenson

From Ararat to Maryborough hasn't got a mention yet .
"Riccardo"


Yes it has  Razz Look up and see
  John of Melbourne The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: Melbourne suburbs
Okay, I am going to award this to Nexas, although he did overlook one rule.

I did say that the two broad gauge tracks to Geelong count as one, meaning that you couldn't go over them twice.  Nexas did.

However, I didn't have a good reason for saying that; it was just what was in my mind when I thought this thing up.  More to the point, he still had essentially the correct route, just with a bit more added.  The only bit he missed (which had to be missed the way he did it), was the Broadmeadows - Albion line.  If he didn't use the Geelong line twice, Broadmeadows - Albion could have been included.

Actually the rule about VR lines was irrelevant.  Allowing non-VR lines wouldn't have made any difference, as far as I know.  (It was just there in case I was wrong about it not making any difference.)  I didn't think that the rule about the Geelong line would have made any difference either, but I was wrong on that.

I actually modified my own route two or three times during the course of this quiz question, as I thought of improvements, although the basic route I always had.  I'm not sure that I had the Northern Loop in any of my routes, although I originally thought of this years ago so I may have forgotten some of what I had previously thought of.

Your turn Nexas.
  Nexas The Ghost of George Stephenson

I can't believe I got that one right, since I was a late-comer to that question!

Anyway, heres a simple question...

When the Sandringham Line was first opened (1859), which stations were open, and what was the original path the line to the city before it was closed?

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