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BDA
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Oct 17, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Sydney
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Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 8:59 pm
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Can someone please give some details about the "proposed" Southern Line deviations Wentworth,Hoare and Centennial.Phillip Laird has spoken volumes about improved running times between Sydney and Melbourne,so I'm curious as to the changes in alignment.As well it will be interesting to see if the crossovers and refuge capability at Coota do much for the corridors capacity.I feel that something similar to this in between Yass Jct and Goulburn would be handy as it is a long way to follow slow trains,also going in the hole at Yass to follow the XPTs for an hour it a drag.I've heard that the Block Tele at Harden to Wallendbeen is due to be replaced with Automatic Signalling,that would save some time for the trains.What other upgrades do you all think would be useful ?
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bluegoose
Station Master
Joined: May 06, 2003
Last Visited: Jul 4, 2005
Location: New South Wales
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Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 1:25 pm
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I recall that the Wentworth Deviation is a new alignment from MacArthur to Mittagong which would follow the freeway. Great idea but I wonder if we will ever see it.
I know there was also a proposal to straighten out the line between Goulburn and Yass Jn through the Cullerin Ranges. That could be the Hoare deviation. Then there is Werai, Bethungra etc etc. 
Train's the way to go yeah
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XP2009
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 16, 2006
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Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 6:41 pm
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I seriously doubt it will happen
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awsgc24
Minister for Railways
Joined: Feb 18, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
Location: Sydney, NSW
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Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 10:15 am
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| bluegoose wrote: |
I know there was also a proposal to straighten out the line between Goulburn and Yass Jn through the Cullerin Ranges. That could be the Hoare deviation. Then there is Werai, Bethungra etc etc. |
If you straighten (and shorten) the curves through Cullerin range, then you make the 1 in 75 ruling grades worse for wheat trains, which would be unpopular. Unless you built the deviation and retained the current line, making three tracks in all. Ideally the new deviation would all be on the down side of the retained thrid track, which may not be easiest to build.
If the existing 1 in 75 grade track is retained through Cullerin, what then would the ruling gradient of the extra new track be?
* 1 in 40 - the original Whitton standard.
* 1 in 48 - the ruling gradient in Victoria at Heathcote Junction on the Great Diving Range, which probably cannot be improved.
* 1 in 66 - Main South around Moss Vale
* 1 in 75 - Rest of Main South.
* 1 in ?? - some other value.
My guess would be 1 in 48 in the Down Direction and 1 in 75 in the Up Direction.
Now there are a number of small steep banks on the Main South that have gone un-noticed where an improvementf from 1 in 40 to 1 in 48 might be worth doing. These imclude:
* Joppa Junction bank for about 2km.
* Gunning bank for about 4km
* Harden to Demondrille - about 4 km.
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Riccardo
Minister for Railways
Joined: Aug 20, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 28, 2008
Location: Elsewhere
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Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 10:56 am
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| awsgc24 wrote: | | If you straighten (and shorten) the curves through Cullerin range, then you make the 1 in 75 ruling grades worse for wheat trains, which would be unpopular. |
Why do you assume that they won't build a new deviation - they don't have to follow Whitton. Qld builds new deviations - fit for 160km/h 1067 mm trains 
| awsgc24 wrote: | | Unless you built the deviation and retained the current line, making three tracks in all. Ideally the new deviation would all be on the down side of the retained thrid track, which may not be easiest to build. |
Why 3 tracks - why would they bother keeping 3 tracks. My guess is they would build one new track, maybe an easement wide enough for 2, and get rid of the other two.
Locomotives are several orders more powerful than when Whitton was around.
Also why the assumption of a line via Cullerin?
Why not skirting the northern ACT?
As Ross Gittins said in Age/SMH - Commonwealth Dept of Fin's stupidity meant they ended up paying for a doubled Hume from Goulburn to  Jugiong, as well as a double Federal and future doubled Barton.
If they'd built a Hume Fwy via Canberra, with a rail line in the centre, they would have saved a packet. But of course without a national transport plan, how could Dept Fin know any better? 
If you need to get in touch, drop a comment at the Transport Textbook or on my blog.
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BDA
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Oct 17, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Sydney
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Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:06 pm
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Remember,its not just the 1 in 40 grades that make the Main South a dinosaur.Some of those horse shoe bends almost end up being a baloon loop ! With todays trains the small radius bends cost more time than the steep grades, not that they help much.If the line had been built to follow the high ground, the farce of Fish River,Gunning,Jerawa,Derringullen Ck,Bowning,Illalong Ck,Binalong,Rocky Ponds,Harden-Murrumbuurra,Demondrill Ck,Wallendbeen could have been avoided.Obviously it was built for lots of short light trains , with grades that favoured loaded north bound trains , that went out of its way to find water for steam engines , avoided building any more bridges than were absolutely necessary , and lesser grades were given priority over sharp bends.I think the 64 dollar question is , would fixing the worst parts of this line make a substantial difference to running times. Starting with a clean sheet of paper will always be the best option, but whose gonna spend the money to finance the real fix.
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awsgc24
Minister for Railways
Joined: Feb 18, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 2, 2008
Location: Sydney, NSW
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Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 4:47 pm
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| Riccardo wrote: | | awsgc24 wrote: | | If you straighten (and shorten) the curves through Cullerin range, then you make the 1 in 75 ruling grades worse for wheat trains, which would be unpopular. |
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If you keep a single up track at 1 in 75 uphill up Cullerin Bank for bulk wheat trains, then any deviation can be as steep as you like, say 1 in 25, 33, 40, 48 (to match Heathcote Junction). The steeper it can be, the easier it will be to find a low cost alignment. One might even get an "Via Recta" alignment that is shorter than the Hume Highway and might go via Canberra and Holbrook and the rugged catchment of the Burrenjuckk Dam.
In fact, this is way that the Cullerin Bank should have been done in the 1920's when it was duplicated. Three tracks, one uphill at 1 in 75, the existing line at 1 in 40 for Up expresses and all down hill traffic. I cannot explain while no attempt seems to have been made to do anything like this. This is not rocket science, but then again, rocket science barely existed in the 1920's.
| Riccardo wrote: | Qld builds new deviations - fit for 160km/h 1067 mm trains
Much of the Queensland North Coast line is through terrain less rugged than what you find in New South Wales. Their original line often twisted around little molehill, such was the small budget it was originally built to. Try improving say the NSW Arglen tunnel for speed, distance, energy consumed (see forum NSW/Rathole tunnels).
As a result many of the QR 160km/h deviations were simple to do and they improved gradients as well as curves. Amongst other things, there are no expensive tunnels on any of their 160km/h deviations.
You only have to look at topolographic maps of NSW to find that things are quite different. Finding new routes that improve both curves and grades is bound to be difficult.
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| Riccardo wrote: |
Locomotives are several orders more powerful than when Whitton was around.
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A fair point for time-sensitive traffic, but for non-perishable freight such as wheat, there is likely to be a desire for gradients that reduce the number of locomotives.
| Riccardo wrote: | Also why the assumption of a line via Cullerin?
Why not skirting the northern ACT?
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Well, Goulburn-Cullerin-Yass is vaguely on a straight line; Yass being where the Hume Highway turns southeast, while the railway starts is long loop in the wrong direction via Cootamundra.
Goulburn-ACT-Yass is likely to be longer than Goulburn-Cullerin-Yass. The extra length rather defeats some of the time saved by higher speeds.
| Riccardo wrote: |
As Ross Gittins said in Age/SMH - Commonwealth Dept of Fin's stupidity meant they ended up paying for a doubled Hume from Goulburn to Jugiong, as well as a double Federal and future doubled Barton.
If they'd built a Hume Fwy via Canberra, with a rail line in the centre, they would have saved a packet. But of course without a national transport plan, how could Dept Fin know any better? |
Talking of stupidity, the failure of the civil engineers to duplicate Cullerin range properly in the 1920s was because someone somewhere was too stupid to realise that there is no law, rule, regulation, requirement, guideline, standard or need to build the two tracks of a double track railway at the same level, or with the same distance between stations on the separate tracks.
One size fits all?
_ Railway gauge _ _ _ _ : Mostly YES; Almost always 1435mm _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ .
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ : except sugar cane trams, rocket launch pads, telescopes.
_ _ Shoe/hat/ ring sizes: NO_ _ _ _ _ .
May use SUW 2000 VGA to bridge break-of-gauge.
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BDA
Chief Commissioner
Joined: Oct 17, 2003
Last Visited: Dec 1, 2008
Location: Sydney
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Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 8:52 pm
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Sigh.....Hate to tell you folks but other services take priority over dirty old wheat trains.REMEMBER the line was duplicated and goes all round the compass to avoid steep grades and favour GUTLESS HEAPS OF EXCRETA.This countries economy should not be held to randsom with land transport to support museum pieces hauling low priority trains.RIC/ARTC should have minimum standards of train performance and provide service to the majority.If Dodgy Bros Railz can only afford fibro locomotives , get used to living in loops.
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Riccardo
Minister for Railways
Joined: Aug 20, 2003
Last Visited: Nov 28, 2008
Location: Elsewhere
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Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 10:18 pm
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| BDA wrote: | | Sigh.....Hate to tell you folks but other services take priority over dirty old wheat trains.REMEMBER the line was duplicated and goes all round the compass to avoid steep grades and favour GUTLESS HEAPS OF EXCRETA.This countries economy should not be held to randsom with land transport to support museum pieces hauling low priority trains.RIC/ARTC should have minimum standards of train performance and provide service to the majority.If Dodgy Bros Railz can only afford fibro locomotives , get used to living in loops. |
Too right - Hammer and Champy of Business Process Reengineering fame called it "paving over the cow paths"; too much of this happens in rail politics.
If you need to get in touch, drop a comment at the Transport Textbook or on my blog.
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