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RP get-together - Possibly farewell to the Stony Point A-MTH

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      merlin Chief Commissioner

    Location: North East Adelaide
    Why doesn't the conductor sell and check tickets ??
    "Turbo Thomas"


    Is it in his employment contract that he is required to perform this duty?
    Is he trained and qualified to do so?
    What about the ramifications of handling cash e.g. security?
    What does the union say?

    There are MANY MANY factors involved in making such a change. Don't assume it's as simple as handing him a pile of tickets and a bum bag of change and saying "sell these, please".
    Posted: 18 Apr 2008 09:25

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      Ballast_Plough Chief Commissioner

    Location: Lilydale, Vic
    It might just be a Connex conductor vs V/Line conductor thing. I'm guessing that most people consider the train a V/Line service since it's a diesel / sprinter and would think that if conductors on a V/locity sell tickets, why can't they to Stony Point. Mind you, with a potential risk of ferals travelling at night, its perhaps wise not to make the guy carry money around.
    Posted: 18 Apr 2008 10:17
      Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

    Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
    The relationship between VLP and Connex is a little tangled when it comes to the Stony Point service but it does fall fairly and squarely within the Metcard ticketing system and not the VLP one.

    There is no provision for anyone anywhere (whether on rail tram or bus) to be able to sell Metcards on a roving basis.

    The only exception I am aware of to that was that Tram Attendants carried and sold pre-encoded daily tickets for three years before the "Daily" button was made available for use on the tram TVM's.  

    Those staff were of course able to validate the tickets immediately since trams carry validators.  Sprinters do not, nor will they do so in future.

    The potential risk where staff carry cash on board trains is certainly there but is probably no greater on the Stony Point train than on most other lines.  There may well be issues of having adequate time to pay in and complete paperwork between trips with the new timetable and it may well be undesireable to carry around the entire shift's takings.
    Posted: 18 Apr 2008 10:33
      SPSD40T2 Chief Commissioner

    Location: Platform 9-3/4 and still waiting !!
    You can buy tickets on a bus !!
    Posted: 18 Apr 2008 10:45
      Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

    Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
    Of course you can, and they are issued from a fixed machine hard-wired into the vehicle electrics and validated in another fixed machine also wired in.

    "Roving" implies that someone who can walk through the train is able to then sell you tickets as is done on VLP country trains, and used to be done when we had tram connies.  Neither of the ticketing systems they use(d) relies upon hard-wired electronic equipment.
    Posted: 18 Apr 2008 11:10
      XAM2175 Assistant Commissioner

    Location: Glasgow
    So there we have it...

    I plan on a trip to SP and back sometime on the morning of the 26th (commitments in the afternoon/evening) and then another on the 27th to try out the Sprinters on their first day.

    Was there any plan by others here for similar? I reckon we should have a meet of some description on the Sunday.

    Edit: On the subject of ticketing, I do recall hearing that a design for a portable Metcard validator was developed by ERG but found to be cumbersome and have limited battery life. I don't know how many were ever produced or whether they still exist.
    Posted: 19 Apr 2008 09:16
      Metro Transit Minister for Railways

    Location: Error.
    The Sprinter has made it to Stony Point.

    Finally after many weeks an unknown non McSprinter was seen heading UP towards Frankston crossing the Bungower Road level crossing just after 8am this morning.

    At the level crossing there were a few work crews and guys in orange vests.


    Metro II.
    Posted: 19 Apr 2008 14:47
      Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

    Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
    The sprinter is permitted to occupy the line between Frankston and Stony Point today for signal sighting tests and is to work as required.  The line is closed to normal passenger traffic for today only.

    The only condition is that it has to be locked south of Long Island Junction at times when the route is required clear for the steel trains since those are running normally.

    The unit is expected to stable at Frankston before dark tonight and remain there for training purposes again through next week.

    The normal passenger service returns tomorrow.
    Posted: 19 Apr 2008 15:36
      Craig Chief Commissioner

    Location: Edithvale, VIC
    Dear All

    As reported above, 7003 & 7012 did testing on the Stony Point line today (7012 in the morning, 7003 in the afternoon). Here's some photos I took, mostly in the afternoon:


    7003 & 7012 at Frankston


    Arriving Hastings (with passengers expecting to board the approaching train!  Exclamation)


    Stopped at Hastings


    Stopped at Hastings


    Departing Hastings towards Frankston


    Passing Somerville


    Passing Somerville

    Kind Regards


    Craig Smile
    Posted: 20 Apr 2008 00:10
      Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

    Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
    Thanks Craig.

    Nice framing of the unit there as it pull out of Hastings, and photographic evidence to support my continued assertions that one sprinter cannot cope with the number of bikes being carried on this line.

    Five bikes boarding at one station is quite common and at least a dozen on a train is a daily occurrence.
    Posted: 20 Apr 2008 00:30
      Turbo Thomas Assistant Commissioner

    Location: Melbourne
    If the conductors can't / won't sell tickets like normal V/Line conductors, then what do they actually do ?
    Seeing it's a Connex service, why don't they make it driver only like the sparks ?
    Posted: 20 Apr 2008 15:02
      wongm GEEWONG

    Location: Geelong, Victoria
    Edit: On the subject of ticketing, I do recall hearing that a design for a portable Metcard validator was developed by ERG but found to be cumbersome and have limited battery life. I don't know how many were ever produced or whether they still exist.
    "jb17kx"

    Are you thinking of the rumoured portable validation readers for roving ticket inspectors - they got canned for similar reason to those you describe. Confused

    If the conductors can't / won't sell tickets like normal V/Line conductors, then what do they actually do ?
    Seeing it's a Connex service, why don't they make it driver only like the sparks ?
    "Turbo Thomas"

    Provide gunzels with the opportunity to hear something other than an 8xxx series train number be called out in the 'station work complete' message over the end to end radio? (eg: all they do is give right of way to the driver to close the doors)
    Posted: 20 Apr 2008 18:19
      Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

    Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
    Conductors on the Stony Point service are required because the present stock CANNOT be worked as driver-only.  There is also no agreement to work Sprinters as driver-only (on any service) and therefore conductors will continue to be carried.

    The service is a part of the suburban network contracted to Connex, even though it is operated by a VLP train and staff.  The latter fact is because Connex does not have any diesel stock of their own; if they did then it would be in use there.

    The conductor's duties are to ensure safe operation of the train behind the driver, to release and close the doors (which are now electrically locked and no longer just hand-worked), to view tickets and assist with validation, plus provide assistance in purchasing tickets on board.

    The messages on the two-way to the driver can vary from the official "8xxx station work completed" through "Stony Point train right away" and on occasions just "Good to go XXXXX" where XXXXX is the driver's name.  You would likely hear similar on any other VLP service where two-way radio comms are used.  

    The conductor on the Stony Point train does not give the driver the OK to close the doors at present but from next Sunday they may be doing so.  Door release / close on the MTH cars is only under the control of the conductor although passengers are still required to slide the doors open once released in exactly the same way as on most suburban electric stock.
    Posted: 20 Apr 2008 20:53
      hansonator Chief Commissioner

    Location: Strathmore, Victoria
    My photos from today.


    A60 thunders up Baxter Bank


    A60 near Long Island Junction


    A60 and MTH cars await the 4.05 departure time

    More photos can be found at

    http://hansonator.fotopic.net/c1496312.html
    Posted: 20 Apr 2008 20:58
      Eratik Chief Train Controller

    Nice photos. Althought the carriages do look a bit shabby I might add. Might be a good move to lift the appearance a little by running Sprinters instead complete with its new livery setup.
    Posted: 20 Apr 2008 21:07
      Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

    Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
    the carriages do look a bit shabby


    It has been a sad fact that the MTH cars have often looked a little second hand externally.  THey are pretty much OK inside but the paintwork is often faded (with the white sometimes almost gone) and the windows thick with brake dust.

    On the other hand as I am the same age as those cars and I sometimes feel a bit past my best perhaps it is just an age thing!
    Posted: 20 Apr 2008 21:26
      Metro Transit Minister for Railways

    Location: Error.
    the carriages do look a bit shabby


    It has been a sad fact that the MTH cars have often looked a little second hand externally.  THey are pretty much OK inside but the paintwork is often faded (with the white sometimes almost gone) and the windows thick with brake dust.
    "Gwiwer"

    I agree that they are not too bad inside, IMHO they are better indide than the sparks, particuarly the Siemens trains.

    It's only the out sides that are a bit dirty, with dust and a lack of paint.


    Metro II.
    Posted: 21 Apr 2008 16:16
      Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

    Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
    Official Connex notices have been sticky-taped inside the doors of the MTH cars tonight advising that "tickets must be pre-purchased" and listing the outlets where this might be done.

    This really is a forlorn hope since not only are there no outlets within any reasonable distance from some stations (the nearest to Leawarra, for instance, is Frankston station!) but there is no legal provision to make the service pre-purchase only.  Additionally not all outlets are open seven days a week nor for the full span of traffic hours given that trains run until mid evening every day and later on Fridays

    As I mentioned before even a pre-purchased ticket cannot be validated on board meaning one could hold a two-hour ticket for potentially an infinite time and use to to make unlimited journeys between all intermediate stations.

    Connex and VLP are the victims in this fiasco since the failure to deliver the new ticketing and the failure to provide scope within the old for additional machines lies firmly with the Transport Ticketing Authority.

    Perhaps some of the $550,000 salary they are no longer paying their former CEO could be diverted to Connex / VLP to fund the service?
    Posted: 21 Apr 2008 20:45
      fullofrubbish Assistant Commissioner

    Location: Brunswick
    The only type of revenue protection that will be able to realistically undertaken will be AO's ensuring those that step off the ex Stony Point train at Frankston subsquently validate their pre-purchased metcard or buy an appropriate metcard and validate it for the journey they have just travelled.

    Otherwise it well and truly is a free for all!

    P.S Not for me having to come from the city but at equivalent $2.90 for a weekend daily you can't go wrong anyway!
    Posted: 21 Apr 2008 22:06
      VRfan Moderator

    Location: In front of my computer :-p
    I got some more "final shots" on Sunday:

    http://vr.railpage.org.au/gallery.php?section=diesel_photos
    Posted: 22 Apr 2008 00:33
      P12 Station Master

    Location: Yarraville
    I understand the RTA have organized a tour to Stony Point to coincide with the last regular pass,they plan on using A60? with SRV sleeping cars and will depart Frankston on the down shortly after the last pass arrives(about 2040).The train will then reportedly head from SP straight through to Warrnambool.
    "Polar Tiger"


    I understand this trip has been cancelled, due to costs involved. Maybe someone can confirm this??
    Posted: 22 Apr 2008 06:12
      Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

    Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
    Cannot confirm nor refute that but only advise that Frankston staff know nothing of it and as far as they are concerned the 7.58 up passenger on Saturday will be the final loco-hauled working.

    The train is currently A62 with MTH 103 (north end)+104 (south end).  102 is the Frankston spare and 101 left for probably the final time with A60 at lunchtime today. There would normally be a changeover on Friday but as this is a public holiday and as well the final day is Saturday this changeover might not eventuate.

    If there is no other changeover then this formation will be the final train though a Thursday changeover has been done before now.
    Posted: 22 Apr 2008 23:18
      fullofrubbish Assistant Commissioner

    Location: Brunswick
    As per another Stony Point thread in the Victoria forum - http://www.railpage.com.au/f-p1046275.htm#1046275

    The Frankston change over will occur on thursday 24th with A60 heading down with MTH 101 and A62 will return with MTH 103

    All 3 MTH's will be in use on saturday to deal with the influx of gunzels down there as everyone will be there to get there final ride on the last loco hauled service

    last up service from stony point will continue right through to spencer street departing frankston at around 2055 and due into southern cross around 2310
    "Ldg Shunter"


    Regards
    Posted: 22 Apr 2008 23:28
      comeng301M Chief Commissioner

    Location: Melbourne, VIC
    Cannot confirm nor refute that but only advise that Frankston staff know nothing of it and as far as they are concerned the 7.58 up passenger on Saturday will be the final loco-hauled working.

    The train is currently A62 with MTH 103 (north end)+104 (south end).  102 is the Frankston spare and 101 left for probably the final time with A60 at lunchtime today. There would normally be a changeover on Friday but as this is a public holiday and as well the final day is Saturday this changeover might not eventuate.

    If there is no other changeover then this formation will be the final train though a Thursday changeover has been done before now.
    "Gwiwer"


    I'll be there to ride the last Loco Hauled Stony Point train. I'll be at Frankston Station between 6:30pm and 6:45pm. For those indending on doing the same just look for a bloke on the Platform at Frankston with a Pentax Digital SLR around his neck and wearing a Black and Green Hitachi hat with Train badges on the front. I was also be riding the train on Friday with another group of Gunzel. If anyone is interested in going. Ill post some more details tomorrow night. Hope to see some fresh faces there on both day

    Cheers Comeng301M
    Posted: 22 Apr 2008 23:38
      Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

    Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
    A loco-plus-four MTH formation would be interesting strictly as a first and final time but I don't see it happening.  It is not uncommon for the Saturday service to be built up to three cars anyway (it can get very busy) so as the operators will be aware of the likely interest then some common sense appears to have prevailed.

    102 has been left with the doors open for several days and might not be the best choice of ride.

    With respect to the comments above re the Thursday changeover this does not altogether surprise me but let's see what actually happens.

    It means that if A60 returns then A66 and 70 have left us for the last time.

    last up service from stony point will continue right through to spencer street departing frankston at around 2055 and due into southern cross around 2310

    Empty cars.  Officially anyway.  And what is going to take empty cars over two hours to complete a run (presumably without having to service intermediate stations) which takes even the all-stations trains only around 70 minutes?
    Posted: 22 Apr 2008 23:53

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