Clearway dispute

 
  herschel_landes Beginner

The clearway extension decision is making  use of public transport as a trojan horse policy to implement greater throughput of vehicular traffic on Melbourne's inner city streets.

It covers up the deplorable lack of public transport assets to facilitate transportation needs and is all about a  1970's car centric ideology run by the car lobby groups.

This policy does not address the cross traffication congestion or pedestrian access to inner city shopping precincts.


The traders of Bridge Rd are seeking better public transport options, wider footpaths, pedestrian crossings and limited on street parking...BUT NOT CLEARWAYS.

regards  HL

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  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
I won't even guess at where you're coming from herschel_landes, or which shop you own, but if you were expecting the first piece of ordnance to land on your head from Melbourne well here's one from Sydney. The purpose of the clearways is to keep motor traffic off the tram tracks so that public transport (not cars) can operate effectively and thus attract people out of cars onto public transport.

OK let's look at the logic of what you're saying. A 4 lane road, the middle two of which are tram tracks. You want parking in the kerb lanes, so where do the cars and trucks drive to get to the parking - on the tram tracks. Huh? Something's not right there is it?

For some years in Sydney we have had the equivalent of quarantined tram tracks in the form of bus lanes. Horror of horrors, these run alongside the kerb, not in the middle of the road. Definitely no parking there. Have Sydney's inner city retail strips collapsed as a result? No, not from this cause (maybe nearby Westfields and the like, but not from this cause). What do people do? They drive to the next side street, park and walk back to the shop they want. Councils also have planning strategies whereby they assist the shopping strips by getting land for carparks at the rear or similar so that people can park and shop. But of course if the public transport becomes more attractive because it is speeded up thanks to clearways then more people might actually come to the shops by public transport. Trams can carry 1000s of people more an hour past your shop than cars ever will.

Hey, the earth is round, not flat. Join us!
  Sir Thomas Bent Minister for Railways

Location: Banned
That's a high-class troll we've got here: the lobbyist troll.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
That's a high-class troll we've got here: the lobbyist troll.
"Deep Throat"

Hopefully now nailed back into the ground! Maybe something will sink in, I feel sorry for you Melbourne folks that you have to be dragged through this boring outdated neanderthal debate.

I remember being in Melbourne years ago visiting a small shop in St Kilda with a visitor from Netherlands (where by that time they had 7 day shopping like we do here now). My visitor made the mistake of asking the shopowner whether she was open on Saturday afternoon. Totally ignoring the 'customer is always right' principle and her own prospects of ongoing success as a business, she launched into an abusive tirade along the lines of "we're never going to do that, its barbaric, we work hard enough as it is, I'm leaving the industry if that happens...blah blah blah!!!!" My visitor was shocked into silence at this response to something that was so normal back at her home. I've sometimes wondered since what the St kilda shopowner is doing now for a living!
  Robbb01 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Shhhh!
Why dont trams get tram lane priority in clearway times....
better public transport..
more people shopping
  Westernport Assistant Commissioner

Location: Not In Service
Under the ThinkTram project, clearway zones are to be implemented in areas where trams are greatly affected by motorists. Clearways are beneficial for a fast and efficient transport network.

as tonyp said if public transport was aided by the use of clearways, more people could have access to the shopping districts by tram or bus, because its gotten faster, as there is less traffic to contend with

people like herschel_landes need to consider the fact that melbourne is continually growing, and for a city to grow and keep moving at the same time, certain things need to be sacrificed.. if a small amount of parking was removed from a road shared by trams, and more people used the tram because the speed of the trams had increased because of the better flow of traffic, the removal of the parking spaces has been cancelled out.

clearways are your friend... well.. friends of the tram and bus networks for that matter...
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney


For some years in Sydney we have had the equivalent of quarantined tram tracks in the form of bus lanes. Horror of horrors, these run alongside the kerb, not in the middle of the road. Definitely no parking there. Have Sydney's inner city retail strips collapsed as a result? No, not from this cause (maybe nearby Westfields and the like, but not from this cause). What do people do? They drive to the next side street, park and walk back to the shop they want. Councils also have planning strategies whereby they assist the shopping strips by getting land for carparks at the rear or similar so that people can park and shop. But of course if the public transport becomes more attractive because it is speeded up thanks to clearways then more people might actually come to the shops by public transport. Trams can carry 1000s of people more an hour past your shop than cars ever will.
"tonyp"


According to yesterday's taxi driver, some of Sydney's bus lanes (which taxis are sometimes permitted to use even though there are no signs to that effect) have been altered so that they are in the second lane rather than the kerb lane. Amongst other things, this allows through busses to overtake buses stopped in the kerb lane to pick up or set down.
  Speed Minister for Railways

Making the middle lanes of roads with tram tracks into T3 transit-lanes would be more effective in allowing traffic to move freely than extending clearways will on its own. Of course, doing that on a 2-lane road would require the curbside lane to be a clearway. It is also a reality that the areas for which the clearway extensions are intended are congested well beyond the clearway hours as they were when the extensions were proposed.

Increasing the tram service frequency would be nice. However, that on its own isn't an argument for providing parking for those who have no intention of using the trams. If more trams ran with half their present passenger-numbers because the the clutter of parked cars compromised the trams' convenience, people would attack the government for squandering money on drivers when there wasn't the road capacity for the trams to be useful.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
Tram service reliability will be improved when they are able to move more freely through the streets and in particular certain critical lengths which have a disproportionate adverse effect on timekeeping.

An evenly-spaced reliable tram service may not then need any frequency enhancements but if it does then achieving high reliability is one way to improve capacity.

In the case of Bridge Road the argument is no different to Sydney ROad; parking and heavy traffic majorly impacts free flow of trams and there are still many permitted right turns across the tracks.

Creating clearway conditions will improve the public transport and have the effect of making it more attractive; this in turn will entice some motorists out of their cars to use it and improve driving conditions through reduced motor traffic.

To not act will be environmental vandalism.  To take no action and allow trams (and equally buses) to become log-jammed and enveloped in a smog of carbon monoxide fumes while the streets reach gridlock is inexcuseable for any authority caring about their environment.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

It's now 40 km/h zone all the way west of Burnley St., but I think it's only necessary from Church St. because east of that there is tram lane.
  scrat Assistant Commissioner

Location: Fitzroy North
This is just further distortion of what the government and many lobby groups are trying to do, as others have said clearways are friends of the tram, if anything the problem is that the clearways aren't enforced well enough.
Brunswick St and Smith St in Fitzroy/Collingwood have both been clearwayed and the central lanes dedicated to trams, the only problem is that cars both park in the clearway and drive on the tram tracks, this is not a trojan horse for car travel, it is taking away a lane of parking and giving it to the trams.

Also, Melbournes roadcentric planning started in the 50's, and accelerated in the 60's don't believe me? I have the 1969 Transport Planning Act, you should see what they planned on doing, and how they are still working on fully impementing the plan, Eastlink is actually the F35.

Also, if there is interest i could scan and upload the entire plan if there was support for that.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven

Brunswick St and Smith St in Fitzroy/Collingwood have both been clearwayed and the central lanes dedicated to trams, the only problem is that cars both park in the clearway and drive on the tram tracks,
"scrat"

If you're having this problem in Melbourne you need cameras, like they do on bus lanes in Sydney.
  dat581 Chief Train Controller

Location: The Shire
With bus lanes down the busiest sections of George St during peak hour I can't see what the state government's objection to trams in the CBD is. They certainly wouldn't be blocking any more traffic than a bus lane.
  scrat Assistant Commissioner

Location: Fitzroy North
Cameras would probably be a good idea however there are two problems, firstly they would have to be monitored cameras, laying sensors into the road could be problematic and people would just claim there was someone parked on the curb to get out of the fine. Secondly in Vic motorists lobbys and the media only portray cameras as "revenue raisers".
Having said that the YT idea of fitting all trams with cameras the drivers can control is a good idea.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
With bus lanes down the busiest sections of George St during peak hour I can't see what the state government's objection to trams in the CBD is. They certainly wouldn't be blocking any more traffic than a bus lane.
"dat581"

Exactly the point. Also streets like Oxford St etc, if they replaced all bus services along a route you would simply be replacing a bus lane with a tram lane - no net loss of lanes. But we're dealing with official irrationality and that's very much a Sydney subject for another thread.

Cameras would probably be a good idea however there are two problems, firstly they would have to be monitored cameras, laying sensors into the road could be problematic and people would just claim there was someone parked on the curb to get out of the fine. Secondly in Vic motorists lobbys and the media only portray cameras as "revenue raisers".
Having said that the YT idea of fitting all trams with cameras the drivers can control is a good idea.
"scrat"

I haven't studied how the bus lane cameras in Sydney work but they seem to be pretty deadly effective and nobody claims they're a revenue raiser I guess because they have a very specific purpose in support of public transport. I believe in Sydney you're still alowed in the bus lane to turn left at a corner but in Melbourne you certainly wouldn't want cars in tram lanes turning right.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Bus lane camera(s) has/have already been working on Johnston St. for years.
  LondonCalling Station Master

Location: Muswell Hill, London, UK
I wonder if VicRoads points lobbyists like "herschel_landes" to this site to convert the non-covertible.

"herschel_landes" - talk to customers at the shop you own along Clarendon Street, Nicholson Street or wherever, and find out how many actually managed to get a park right in front of you.  Very few I expect.  When I used to go to restaurants in Victoria Street, I often used to share a car with mates - cannot think of a time when we did NOT end up parking about three streets away.  Did we stop going to the restaurants?  No.  Why would we?  We liked the restaurants - the parking-hassle didn't matter.
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
I wonder if VicRoads points lobbyists like "herschel_landes" to this site to convert the non-covertible.
"LondonCalling"

I think VicRoads and other car/roads interests would actually support clearways too because they help speed cars in their lemming-like journey along an obstacle-free route to their ultimate destiny...um, destination!
  scrat Assistant Commissioner

Location: Fitzroy North
VicRoads have been operating cameras on the Johnston St bus lane for many years now, but i think they operate like red light cameras with sensor wires cut into the bitumen, you can't quite do the same thing with tram tracks, and most cars have roughly the same width as SG so you could conceivably avoid the cameras by driving on the actual rails.
I may be very wrong, but that was the first thing that came to mind.

Liam.
  route14 Chief Commissioner

Yes, you can put detector loops between tram rails, and vehicles driving with tires on rails will be detected because it's mass metal that distracts the electromagnetic field and cause the loop to send the appropriate signal to camera or traffic signal or boom gates, whatever the loop is designated to operate.
  David_Keating Locomotive Driver

VicRoads supports clearways guy.

Clearways are a temporary fix on their own, the more road space you create the more traffic flows, and other traffic from slower roads move in and fill the space. So in a year the road has the expect same performance. Clearways with part time trams lanes running the length will keep vehicle traffic at the same level and pass the majority benefits to tram travel.

I don't know of any VicRoads operated enforcement cameras of any type. There are plenty of CCTV cameras on arterial and freeway networks, but VicRoads does not record footage ever.

Its funny, there are hardly any traders that have a case for argument with regards to removing parking, I think traders are too ignorant to accept that other modes contribute to business. One interesting survey had results something like 60% of customers walked. The rest consisted of PT, cars and bikes. There are some traders that have a valid point about no alternate parking being available but not many. Traders need to get over cars and realise that better flowing PT and cars will make the area more accessible and encourage people to go there.
  fabricator Chief Commissioner

Location: Gawler
Victoria Street, now there is a bottle neck. Goes from dedicated corridor to one lane shared with traffic. No point removing the parking because their isn't enough room to use it as a second lane anyway.

Of particular note is the b-double beer trucks which bring the entire road to a stop.

I caught a tram down that road every day for 6 months for lunch, most of the time the trams were only a few cars apart, late and having to slam on the brakes often.

Some of these roads would be better if restricted to commercial vehicles only, or the parking removed.
  David_Keating Locomotive Driver

There is plenty of room for an off track lane on Victoria Street. Glenferrie Road through Malvern is a different story, thanks to kerb flareouts.

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