Railway near Caulfield-Oakleigh (Vic) in 1884

 
  aus.rail Chief Train Controller

Still digging through family papers, I came across some information
that puzzles me. Maybe someone can help me.

There is a para that reads "Tom and his family, at this time, resided
in Warrigal Road, Caulfield, near the railway gates in Dandenong Road"

This was 1884, so I guess there were railway gates on Dandenong Road
(near Malvern?), but as far as I know, Warrigal Road has always been
well east of Caulfield.

There may be some logic that I'm not seeing, but interpretation is
invited.

Paul Blair
Canberra
-------------------------------
Paul Blair
pblair@pcug.org.

Sponsored advertisement

  aus.rail Chief Train Controller

"Paul Blair"  wrote in message
news:pmrfcv0cpakfa1hrcldihrpqbsooa9grdq@4ax.com...
> Still digging through family papers, I came across some information
> that puzzles me. Maybe someone can help me.
>
> There is a para that reads "Tom and his family, at this time, resided
> in Warrigal Road, Caulfield, near the railway gates in Dandenong Road"
>
> This was 1884, so I guess there were railway gates on Dandenong Road
> (near Malvern?), but as far as I know, Warrigal Road has always been
> well east of Caulfield.
>
> There may be some logic that I'm not seeing, but interpretation is
> invited.

Railway gates in Dandenong Road might be the Outer Circle. No, you're right,
Warrigal Road is well east of Caulfield, and I think always has been. It's
more like Oakleigh.


Daniel
--
Daniel Bowen, Melbourne, Australia
dbowen at custard dot net dot au
  aus.rail Chief Train Controller

> "Paul Blair" wrote:
> > Still digging through family papers, I came across some information
> > that puzzles me. Maybe someone can help me.

> > There is a para that reads "Tom and his family, at this time,
> > resided in Warrigal Road, Caulfield, near the railway gates in
> > Dandenong Road"

> > This was 1884, so I guess there were railway gates on Dandenong
> > Road (near Malvern?), but as far as I know, Warrigal Road has
> > always been well east of Caulfield.

Looking at a modern Melway there is no alternative Warrigal road which
might be mistaken, so it seems most likely this is indeed referring to
the major north south road which passes through Oakleigh.

Someone has published on the web maps of the Victorian railways at 10
year increments in .pdf format. I've got the files but not the source
URL. In 1880 the Dandenong line as we know it was in place. By 1890 the
outer circle line was in place. The outer circle crossed Dandenong road
at Melway 69B3, near Hyslop parade. This crosses Dandenong road 1.4km
west of Warragal road and 2.9km east of Caulfield station.

Perhaps in 1884, the area people would refer to as "Caulfield" covered a
much greater area? Remember that many suburb names would have come after
then.

See if you can find out the boundaries of the local council areas at the
time? Prior to the Kennett era council redistributions, the City of
Caulfield was bounded by Dandenong Road, Poath Road and North road in
this area, so the likely level crossing site was squarely in the City of
Caulfield and Warragal road was just 1km east of the City of Caulfield.

Considering no one would have thought twice about walking these
distances back then, "Warrigal road near the railway gates in Dandenong
road" is not an improbably description for a location which was
essentially out in the wilds.

I would guess your ancestor lived somewhere very close to Chadstone
shopping centre on Warragal road in what was probably then part of the
council area called Caulfield.

Here are a couple of websites covering council histories in the area:


=======================================================================
The City of Caulfield had its beginnings as a District Roads Board in
1857; ... the Caulfield town hall (now home to Glen Eira City Council)
was built in 1885.
=======================================================================


=======================================================================
In 1857, the Oakleigh and Mulgrave District Roads Board was formed to
raise money to turn dirt tracks into roads for carts, pedestrians and
other traffic. By a quirk of history, the boundaries of the roads board
closely match that of the current City boundaries.

By 1861 there were 15 brick or stone houses, 167 wooden houses, 8 tents
and 25 slab, bark or mud huts and a population of 1,108.

The Shire of Oakleigh was proclaimed in 1871 with the cessation of the
Roads District and in 1879 a pivotal event occurred in the area's
development - the Oakleigh to Melbourne rail line was opened. What
became known as "railway fever" led to a land boom in the Oakleigh area.
A side effect of the boom was that Oakleigh was severed from the rest of
the Shire and named the Borough of Oakleigh. The rest of the shire was
renamed the Shire of Mulgrave in 1897 and it kept this name until 14
April 1961 when it was proclaimed the City of Waverley.
=======================================================================

Neither indicates the precise border between the Shire of Caulfield and
the Shire of Oakleigh or possibly the Borough of Oakleigh in 1884.

> > There may be some logic that I'm not seeing, but interpretation is
> > invited.

Daniel Bowen wrote:
> Railway gates in Dandenong Road might be the Outer Circle.

Thats really the only candidate. The only other place the rail crossed
Dandenong road would have been near Malvern station.

> No, you're right, Warrigal Road is well east of Caulfield, and I
> think always has been. It's more like Oakleigh.

I don't think Warrigal road has moved - I think what has changed is the
area encompassed by the description "Caulfield".
  aus.rail Chief Train Controller

Graham wrote:
> See if you can find out the boundaries of the local council areas at
> the time?

Here we go:


Map at
=======================================================================
Former City of Caulfield
The origin of the name of the City of Caulfield is not known for
certain, but the name seemed to be linked with Baron Caulfeild of
Ireland, perhaps through John Caulfield, a pioneer of the colony.

The name 'Caulfield' was in use by 1853, and the early maps always place
it somewhere around the racecourse. It was not in general use for the
whole area until the proclamation of the Caulfield Road District in
1857.

In 1853 the Victorian Parliament passed an act to give authority to
locally elected people to extract rates from residents in order to
finance road construction.

In November 1857 the first Caulfield Roads Board was elected. It had
control over the roads in an area bounded by Warrigal Road, Hotham
Street, Dandenong Road, North Road and Brighton Road. The proclamation
of the Caulfield Roads Board tied the name 'Caulfield' to a specific
area.
=======================================================================

Here we have "Caulfield" bounded by Warrigal road in 1857. Note that
North of Dandenong road is not Caulfield.

=======================================================================
For twenty-five years a room in Harold Penningtons' home,'Mood Kee',
served as Boardroom, Council Chamber and office.

In 1863, the Caulfield Road District became the Shire of Caulfield and
was proclaimed the City of Caulfield in 1913.

Excerpts from "From sand, swamp and heath...A HISTORY OF CAULFIELD"
by Peter R. Murray and John C. Wells, 1980.
=======================================================================

> Considering no one would have thought twice about walking these
> distances back then, "Warrigal road near the railway gates in
> Dandenong road" is not an improbably description for a location
> which was essentially out in the wilds.

Some time between 1863 and the 1994 council redistributions, the eastern
edge of "Caulfield", in one of it's identities as "the Caulfield Road
District", "the Shire of Caulfield" or "the City of Caulfield" moved
west from Warrigal road to Poath road. If this occurred after 1884 then
your source's description of a location as "Warrigal road Caulfield" is
perfectly reasonable.

> I would guess your ancestor lived somewhere very close to Chadstone
> shopping centre on Warragal road in what was probably then part of
> the council area called Caulfield.

With this further information, I would guess your ancestor lived on
Warrigal Road between Dandenong Road and the railway line, in what was
then the Shire of Caulfield and is now considered Oakleigh. Five streets
run west of Warrigal road here, Rugby road, Euston Road, Crewe Road,
Swindon road and Willesden Road.
  aus.rail Chief Train Controller

On Mon, 19 May 2003 10:27:00 +1000, Graham  wrote:


>With this further information, I would guess your ancestor lived on
>Warrigal Road between Dandenong Road and the railway line, in what was
>then the Shire of Caulfield and is now considered Oakleigh. Five streets
>run west of Warrigal road here, Rugby road, Euston Road, Crewe Road,
>Swindon road and Willesden Road.

When they were developing that part of Oakleigh, the suburb was promoted as
a major railway junction - similar to Crewe, Swindon, etc, and the streets
were named accordingly. Oakleigh was then the junction for the Outer Circle
and Rosstown lines. But why anyone would want to promote living in a town as
similar, at that time, to the worst smokey, fog-bound, polluted cities in
England is beyond me.

Les Brown
  aus.rail Chief Train Controller

Crewe & Swindon were "modern" developments of that era & I believe that at least some measures were taken to minimize pollution & urban ugliness.
  aus.rail Chief Train Controller

>Crewe & Swindon were "modern" developments of that era & I believe that at
>least some measures were taken to minimize pollution & urban ugliness.
That's certainly true of Swindon, where a complete "Model Village" for
railway workers was constructed.   (And still survives and very pleasant
it is, too.)

Crewe was always (and in large measure is) a railway with a town tagged
on to it!

Of the others, Rugby, although industrial, was always in part a very
pretty, historic town with a centre (around the famous Rugby School of
Tom Brown fame) which would do justice to an elegant University City.

As for Willesden (NW London), don't ask.......   Smile
--
Ian Jelf, MITG,                 Birmingham, UK
       Registered "Blue Badge" Tourist Guide for
       London & the Heart of England
       http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk
  aus.rail Chief Train Controller

les@brownfam.com.au (Les Brown) wrote in message news:...

> When they were developing that part of Oakleigh, the suburb was promoted as
> a major railway junction - similar to Crewe, Swindon, etc, and the streets
> were named accordingly. Oakleigh was then the junction for the Outer Circle
> and Rosstown lines. But why anyone would want to promote living in a town as
> similar, at that time, to the worst smokey, fog-bound, polluted cities in
> England is beyond me.

Not just the streets previously named - running parallel to Warrigal
Road are Paddington, Bletchley and Clapham.  So, they are not just
major junctions, there are also major termini as well.  Plus
Bletchley, which I would never have considered to be a major junction,
but looking at my rail atlas probably was quite a place in earlier
days.

As a young lad this was my paper-round territory for a few years, and
I often used to wonder just why all these streets were named after
railway stations.

John Dennis
  aus.rail Chief Train Controller

les@brownfam.com.au (Les Brown) wrote in message news:...
> On Mon, 19 May 2003 10:27:00 +1000, Graham  wrote:
>
>
> >With this further information, I would guess your ancestor lived on
> >Warrigal Road between Dandenong Road and the railway line, in what was
> >then the Shire of Caulfield and is now considered Oakleigh. Five streets
> >run west of Warrigal road here, Rugby road, Euston Road, Crewe Road,
> >Swindon road and Willesden Road.
>
> When they were developing that part of Oakleigh, the suburb was promoted as
> a major railway junction - similar to Crewe, Swindon, etc, and the streets
> were named accordingly. Oakleigh was then the junction for the Outer Circle
> and Rosstown lines. But why anyone would want to promote living in a town as
> similar, at that time, to the worst smokey, fog-bound, polluted cities in
> England is beyond me.
>
> Les Brown

 Les.
 Have you ever read the book called Return To Rosstown by Jowett &
Weickhardt;it describes the Rosstown Railway.
Jeff
  aus.rail Chief Train Controller

les@brownfam.com.au (Les Brown) wrote in message news:...
> On 20 May 2003 02:05:12 -0700, jeffreybounds@hotmail.com (jeffreybounds)
> wrote:
>
> >  Les.
> >  Have you ever read the book called Return To Rosstown by Jowett &
> >Weickhardt;it describes the Rosstown Railway.
>
> Got it, thanks Jeff.
>
> Les Brown

 I believe the Malvern Historical Society have photos of the Outer
Circle Railway in their collection.I have seen an ariel photo taken in
1927 showing the Gardiners Creek bridge.
About 35 years ago I saw a photo of Waverley Rd platform displayed in
a Mc Kinnon Rd Estate agency,near Mc Kinnon Station.
Jeff
  aus.rail Chief Train Controller

les@brownfam.com.au (Les Brown) wrote in message news:...
> On Mon, 19 May 2003 10:27:00 +1000, Graham  wrote:
>
>
> >With this further information, I would guess your ancestor lived on
> >Warrigal Road between Dandenong Road and the railway line, in what was
> >then the Shire of Caulfield and is now considered Oakleigh. Five streets
> >run west of Warrigal road here, Rugby road, Euston Road, Crewe Road,
> >Swindon road and Willesden Road.
>
> When they were developing that part of Oakleigh, the suburb was promoted as
> a major railway junction - similar to Crewe, Swindon, etc, and the streets
> were named accordingly. Oakleigh was then the junction for the Outer Circle
> and Rosstown lines. But why anyone would want to promote living in a town as
> similar, at that time, to the worst smokey, fog-bound, polluted cities in
> England is beyond me.
>
> Les Brown
 Les,
 The classic railway street name in Oakleigh is Dalston Rd,named afer
Dalston Junct.in East London.
I was there in Jan 1975,and it was a very blighted area.That junction
no longer exists.
Jeff
  aus.rail Chief Train Controller

jeffreybounds@hotmail.com (jeffreybounds) wrote in message news:...

>   The classic railway street name in Oakleigh is Dalston Rd,named afer
> Dalston Junct.in East London.
>  I was there in Jan 1975,and it was a very blighted area.That junction
> no longer exists.

I had never considered the streets on the south side of the railway
line, although that was very close to where I lived.  The street which
paralleled the Rosstown was Carlisle, and running off Carlisle are
Preston, Skipton, Dalston, and Camden - these are all English place
names, and all with some sort of railway connotation. (Although
everywhere in England with a population greater than 20 seemed to have
its own railway Smile

The last two are Richardson (which would become Paddington if there
was a level crossing) and Earlstown.  Not certain about whether these
are British railway stations.

John Dennis
  aus.rail Chief Train Controller

The East London Line Extension will restore Dalston Junction - for
reference, it was the junction of the line to Broad St station (next door to
Liverpool St) with the North London Line, which in turn had links to the
WCML and "Silverlink" out of Euston. It was used by Watford - Broad St
trains which were diverted to Liverpool St, and then dropped altogether. The ELLE uses much of the trackbed and bridges of the Broad St line, with a bridge across the Liverpool St throat and connects to the ELL between
Shoreditch (which closes) and Whitechapel.

Regards

David Winter
Armadale, WA
  aus.rail Chief Train Controller

On Mon, 19 May 2003 10:04:20 +1000, Graham
wrote:

>Someone has published on the web maps of the Victorian railways at 10
>year increments in .pdf format. I've got the files but not the source
>URL.

http://pigfish.vic.cmis.csiro.au/~ajw/VRMaps/index.html

Up until some time before the commencement of publication of the
Gradients & Curves book, the VR published a book- "Occupation and PCR
Crossings", which was an exhaustive list of all such crossings on the
system, each to the nearest link. I have the 1909 edition, and will
check for the crossing mentioned, but 1909 is already a quarter of a
century post the time mentioned. The late 1890s was a time of mass
closings of level crossings- or at least of their downgrading. There
must have been many hundreds of staffed crossings with gatehouses
before this big purge.

BTW Does anyone know what "PCR" stood for?... "Public Crossing Road"
??- these were your "standard" crossings. And why were "Occupation
Crossings" (the sort of crossing a farmer would use to get across the
line through his property) so called?- who was "Occupying" what?

Geoff Lambert
  aus.rail Chief Train Controller

"Paul Blair"  wrote in message
news:pmrfcv0cpakfa1hrcldihrpqbsooa9grdq@4ax.com...
> Still digging through family papers, I came across some information
> that puzzles me. Maybe someone can help me.
>
> There is a para that reads "Tom and his family, at this time, resided
> in Warrigal Road, Caulfield, near the railway gates in Dandenong Road"
>
> This was 1884, so I guess there were railway gates on Dandenong Road
> (near Malvern?), but as far as I know, Warrigal Road has always been
> well east of Caulfield.
>
> There may be some logic that I'm not seeing, but interpretation is
> invited.
>
> Paul Blair
> Canberra
The Outer Circle railway would have just been under construction at this
time I think. The railway gates on Dandenong Rd. would have been a very new
feature & so would have been a landmark on a rural landscape. It sounds like
a description of a rural location giving points to navigate to the property,
which would appear to be a farm of a few hundred acres , stretching across
what is now Chadstone shopping centre. I would say that the "claybelt" area
east of Caulfield would have been mostly divided into farms of 10 to 200
acres in those days.
Oakleigh certainly existed in those days but Caulfield would have been the
major town & no doubt the headquarters of the local shire or roads board
thus the roads described came under its' juristiction.
If passenger services had commenced on the Outer Circle by then, a stopping
place at the Dandenong road gates would have been the closest point to a
property near the corner of Dandenong & Warrigal Roads.
I hope this is of some help & my historical knowlege not too inaccurate.

--
RMOD
  aus.rail Chief Train Controller

Thank you, everyone. I think that the early Caulfield boundary of
Warrigal Road puts the residence somewhere near the Outer Circle
crossing.

PCR stands for Public Crossing Railway, a most VR bit of language.
Like Butty Gang.

There are all sorts of bits of news in these papers - like the
widening of bridges in Geelong to allow rail access to the grain
silos, and so on. A lot of the family seems to have worked for the Way
and Works Branch....

Paul Blair
(who grew up near the Rosstown Railway cutting along Marara Road!)
  aus.rail Chief Train Controller

There's no chance the author could be talking about the Rosstown railway
is there?  It was constructed in 1883 so would have been a landmark in
1884.  It ran from Oakleigh toward Caulfield South so might account for
confusion about Caulfield and Oakleigh.  It did not however cross
Dandenong Road, but maybe there was a previous incarnation of Dandenong Road.  Was Old Dandenong Road ever known simply as Dandenong Road?  If so, what was the current Dandenong Road then known as?
  aus.rail Chief Train Controller

Chris Brownbill wrote:
> There's no chance the author could be talking about the Rosstown
> railway is there?  It was constructed in 1883 so would have been a
> landmark in 1884.  It ran from Oakleigh toward Caulfield South so
> might account for confusion about Caulfield and Oakleigh.

The Rosstown rail branched east off the south side of the Dandenong line
just a few hundred metres east of where the Outer circle line branched
north. You can see this quite clearly on a modern street map around
Hughesdale station.

> It did not however cross Dandenong Road, but maybe there was a
> previous incarnation of Dandenong Road.  Was Old Dandenong Road ever
> known simply as Dandenong Road?

Old Dandenong road is well south of the Rosstown rail line and is not
crossed by any railway.

Sponsored advertisement

Display from:   

Quick Reply

We've disabled Quick Reply for this thread as it was last updated more than six months ago.