discount fares for good looking people to make the average public transport user more attractive

Reminds me of a certain scene in Ali G Indahouse.

Hehe...very good point!  Perhaps it would have been more accurate to say that 'sky's the limit' when the system is in and bedded down.

So that means the both zones weekend benefit can return later on?

I'm pretty sure that already is there...

I'm pretty sure that they have always had an issue fee for the cards since they started. I'm not aware of any data that suggests that cards were being thrown away in London in large quantities.

Hi Revenue - I was in London in October 2003 when Oyster was first offered to the general public.  I got an Oyster card for free... all I had to do was put a Tube TravelCard value on it (I paid for a weekly) and a couple of days later, the Oyster card arrived.  No additional fees applied at that point in time.

The current £3 "refundable deposit" for the issue of an Oyster Card was introduced in May this year.  If they were free prior to that as an "introductory offer" then that offer has run for several years!

Gwiwer, you're wrong on this. I got an Oyster Card in 2004 (with the deposit) and returned it and got my £3 back in early 2007 when I left. As the card was only introduced in 2003, I'd assume the deposit was always there.

Something changed in May as when I was in London in April there were posters up everywhere advising of the introduction of this charge.  As it wasn't relevant to me (I use Travelcard) I didn't fully absorb the context.  I wonder if they meant the fee is now non-refundable?

Something changed in May as when I was in London in April there were posters up everywhere advising of the introduction of this charge.  As it wasn't relevant to me (I use Travelcard) I didn't fully absorb the context.  I wonder if they meant the fee is now non-refundable?

I just looked up TFL and I'm guessing it's the new Visitor Oystercard (which I haven't seen before). You can pre-purchase it from oversees, it costs £2 which isn't refundable. They also only allow up to £5 refunds without having to fill out a form.

I think it must be because of the queues at the airport, with everyone getting their deposit back. Good marketing ploy, but for anyone landing at Heathrow at least, there is absolutely no reason to pre-purchase one.

One-way ticket to reach your destination, including transfers between any transport modes within 2 hours*.
* Transfers must be made between different route numbered services (return journeys are not permitted). Passengers travelling through 11 zones or more will have their final transfer time extended by 90 minutes.
So a person can’t uses this ticket in S.E Queensland to do a return trip for example going do their shopping in two hours and use the same ticket to go home on.

It would be great if they could do a return trip on this ticket because then TransLink will get more people using their services.

Doh! I wasn't aware they had changed it. I agree with you - I love 2-hour tickets, but many transport planners believe that it is unfair to charge someone who makes a return trip within 2 hours one fare, and to charge more for someone who comes back within, say, 3 or 4 hours. Arguments on both sides.

I was talking about how MYKI works out the fare, MYKI in Melbourne it would work out by / the weekly by 10.

Weekly tickets on V/Line are very very heavily discounted. If we were to change fares so that the single ticket was 1/10th of the weekly price, then we would increase the cost of the weekly, rather than decrease the cost of a single!  There are no plans to change the current prices for V/Line. Don't forget that V/Line has off-peak fares which changes the relationship as well.

It now no longer called Seniors Sunday pass and now know as the Sunday pass.

For new applicants, sure. But there are 400,000 people out there with a Seniors Sunday Pass - so my example was valid!  

I'm pretty sure that already is there...

No, the all zones travel on weekends is not included in myki. The reason is partly software and partly policy. This is going to be a multi-modal system that covers Victoria. Giving customers with Zone 1 or Zone 2 periodicals free travel on weekends is a little hard to justify. What do you do with people with a Zone 4 ticket? Should a Zone 5 ticket be valid in Zone 4 or weekends? What if the Zone 5 person would prefer Zone 6, rather than Zone 4? There have been a lot of people on this forum saying that we should keep the new system simple - and this certainly does that. Having said all that, because of the way the system calculates fares, and because of the cost of the weekend travel (eg. $3) the cost of someone with a Zone 1 ticket to travel on Zone 2 on weekends will be about 6 cents.

Simple is good - with a weekly get unlimited travel in the zones you have purchased the weekly for!  

I am not happy that the all zones travel for weekends is being scrapped.  This is a great incentive for people to buy periodical tickets and is one of main reasons that I buy a weekly.

This Myki is looking less smart by the second.  For all of my initial enthusiasm about it, I am really starting to think that the people/hardware/software behind Myki just cannot be trusted to do the correct thing with my money.

As someone who always cops PT related questions from friends and colleagues, I will be advising to stick to Metcard as long as it stays with us and to go for Myki short-term (pay in advance) tickets when Myki is all we have.

I am not happy that the all zones travel for weekends is being scrapped. This is a great incentive for people to buy periodical tickets and is one of main reasons that I buy a weekly.

This benefit is only used by a very small number of customers. The cost to travel outside your zone on weekends will be very small - as you'll only have to pay the difference between the fare you would otherwise have had to pay, and the $3 weekend rate (which means you'll probably have to pay about six cents a day to travel in Zone 2 on weekends - and that's not a typo - six cents.

With respect, I think you are the exception, not the rule. Very few customers decide to purchase periodical tickets based on the all zone weekend travel - in fact most customers are not even aware of it.

With a statewide system, I think that you need to make sure that the benefits are the same for all people. Remember, when periodical tickets used to be valid for an extra day when validated after 3pm? That was phased out as we wanted the same rules to apply to all weekly tickets. Now the same rules apply to all weekly tickets. This is another example of that - get ready for a statewide system.

I am really starting to think that the people/hardware/software behind Myki just cannot be trusted to do the correct thing with my money.

But you trust Metcard? Both systems have problems from time to time. The key thing with myki is that if someone goes wrong (which shouldn't happen of course), then it can be corrected. In most cases this can happen automatically without any need for the customer to apply for a refund.

As someone who always cops PT related questions from friends and colleagues, I will be advising to stick to Metcard as long as it stays with us and to go for Myki short-term (pay in advance) tickets when Myki is all we have.

While it is nice of you to try and maximise our revenue, I think it will be in their financial interest to get a myki card. Remember, the prices will be the same as in the current system - it is up to 70% more expensive at the moment to purchase individual tickets rather than buying in bulk - the same rules will apply under myki. Buy in bulk and save - get a myki and save!  

Weekly tickets on V/Line are very very heavily discounted. If we were to change fares so that the single ticket was 1/10th of the weekly price, then we would increase the cost of the weekly, rather than decrease the cost of a single! There are no plans to change the current prices for V/Line. Don't forget that V/Line has off-peak fares which changes the relationship as well.

I do not think this would be the case if MYKI money two hour country zones was 1/10th of the weekly price go by what happens in South East Queensland.
What happens in SE Queensland they work out their fares as the following:
…………………………....single fare………..weekly fare………………go card single
Zone 1 to 13……………$9.80……………………. $63.70………………………. $6.37
Note zone 1 to 13 is nearly same distance as zone 1 to 4

I think having same way working out fares across the board is only fair way to go about it.
If Country fares were work out same way as Melbourne and then it would work out the following:
………………….. Two Hour Fare………MYKI Two Hour Fare ……MYKI 7 days fare
Zone 1 to 4: …$ 9.20………………………$6.12…………………………$61.20

By doing this, more people will take up MYKI money and less people would line up for a ticket at the booking window for their tickets and end result is more people will use public transport.

The key thing with myki is that if someone goes wrong (which shouldn't happen of course), then it can be corrected. In most cases this can happen automatically without any need for the customer to apply for a refund.

I would be comfortable if I could 'see' how my money is being deducted. If the myki card is like a debit card, is there anyway that I can see what my balance is, or better yet, see what individual fares I have been charged recently ?

I would be comfortable if I could 'see' how my money is being deducted. If the myki card is like a debit card, is there anyway that I can see what my balance is, or better yet, see what individual fares I have been charged recently ?

Absolutely!  

When you do a transaction, the amount deducted will appear on the screen. However, we expect that most people in time won't bother to look at that.

Customers will be able to view previous transactions in a few ways:

- at stations at the vending machine
- at stations at the stand alone enquiry machine (the blue ones, rather than the green ones at stations)
- online (if you have registered).

There should be some other places as well.  

On system locations will show you transactions stored on the card. Online you'll be able to go back further.

Customers will be able to view previous transactions in a few ways:

- at stations at the vending machine
- at stations at the stand alone enquiry machine (the blue ones, rather than the green ones at stations)

Thats fine if you are a train user.    Not so fine, otherwise.

I didn't want to provide definitive advice on the tram CVM - I'm not sure if it can provide a transaction history. I will check.

Customers will be able to view previous transactions in a few ways:

- at stations at the vending machine
- at stations at the stand alone enquiry machine (the blue ones, rather than the green ones at stations)

Thats fine if you are a train user.    Not so fine, otherwise.

Revenue, again thank you. You are doing as great job in keeping us informed!

Just wondering...
There are rural users in areas such as those in Geelong, Ballarat, who are Myki users who don't use the train, only buses, and who don't have access to the net at home. Alot of passengers who fit into the category include the elderly, and the infirm, and to simply ask them to pop into the station to check is unreasonable to say the least.
How will these passengers find out about their previous transactions?

My understanding was that the blue readers would be on trams. Will they be on buses? If they were, that would suffice to check balances.

I also see no reason why the green ones couldn't display balances.

There are rural users in areas such as those in Geelong, Ballarat, who are Myki users who don't use the train, only buses, and who don't have access to the net at home. Alot of passengers who fit into the category include the elderly, and the infirm, and to simply ask them to pop into the station to check is unreasonable to say the least.
How will these passengers find out about their previous transactions?

Customers can always find out about their current transaction by looking at the screen when they touch on or touch off. So for most customers that will be sufficient and they won't need to see their previous transactions. When the system is live, I think that most people won't particularly care - but there will be options to telephone the call centre and find out that way. I understand the concern being raised, but if you look at other systems then I think that in the real world, customers don't often bother to look at their previous transactions or really care. To be blunt, us train nerds might care what they've been charged for each and every trip, but other people probably won't care most of the time.

I think that for most customers, knowing that they CAN find out will be sufficient. Don't forget that there will be CVMs at many bus interchanges - and quite a few bus passengers travel either to/from a shopping centre or train station (or are net savvy students!).

My understanding was that the blue readers would be on trams. Will they be on buses? If they were, that would suffice to check balances.

SEMs (Stand-Alone Enquiry Machines) will not be provided on buses or trams.

I also see no reason why the green ones couldn't display balances.

They can - when you touch on or touch off. This goes to my previous point that for most customers, seeing the fare that is deducted at the time of travel will be sufficient for their purposes.

Just one question from me, will people be expected to scan on when they board a train replacement bus. If so how does the system figure out whats going on?

Just one question from me, will people be expected to scan on when they board a train replacement bus. If so how does the system figure out whats going on?

No different from the current situation really. Sometimes rail replacement services require customers to validate, other times they do not. If they scan on/off the bus, then no probs. If they hop off the train at the station, then we'd expect customers to touch off, and then touch on the bus (if we are collecting fares). As you may know, to assist with loading times, we often let people travel free on rail replacement services. Most rail replacement drivers do not carry cash.

So no change from current really - in the real world the buses are likely to continue to be free, and we'll just collect your fare when you tranfer to the rail station (or if you come off a train we'll assume you've already paid).

SEMs (Stand-Alone Enquiry Machines) will not be provided on buses or trams.  

This may seem a dumb question; but is it possible to look at; in the middle to long term; installing SEM's at certain platform stops?

When you have the space (for example the island stops @ University; Swanston/Flinders Streets) it would make perfect sense with the amount of people using the stop.

Obviously you couldn't do it at say Fed Square; due to heaps of passenger movement.

This benefit is only used by a very small number of customers. The cost to travel outside your zone on weekends will be very small - as you'll only have to pay the difference between the fare you would otherwise have had to pay, and the $3 weekend rate (which means you'll probably have to pay about six cents a day to travel in Zone 2 on weekends - and that's not a typo - six cents.

I'm a little confused as how its only 6c. Would you be able to explain the formula that means that the it will only be 6c to travel into Zone 2 on weekends please.

If its the reserve case, someone in Zone 2 traveling into Zone 1, how much would they have to pay?

Also, if I had a longer term Myki Pass (28 - 365 days) for Zone 1, how does this treat going into the Zone 2 on weekends? Is this the same as the weekly pass?

I really appreciate all the answers you've been giving us in this thread! Many thanks.

Kind Regards


Craig

I'm not going to give you all the answers!  
I think it will be 6 cents - no guarantees as I haven't seen that aspect of the system in operation yet. However, I think someone should be able to work it out..... The hint is that when you have a periodical ticket, and you want to travel outside of your zone, the system doesn't just charge you for the extra zone, it considers what products you have on your card already....

Most of the questions I have been asked by friends in relation to Myki are in relation to tagging off at the end of a trip, whether it is really necessary and how they would be penalised.

On the Myki website I saw this:

Can everyone be charged a provisional fare?
No. If you touch on in a zone covered by a valid myki pass, you will not pay a provisional fare.

It also goes on to say that you should still tag off at the end of the trip to help them work out passengers numbers, travel patterns etc, but bollocks to that.  Do they need hard figures to work out that most trains and trams are chockers and there aren't enough spare vehicles to add more services?

So, if you don't really fancy the idea of tagging off (or getting penalised if you forget), stick to the short term paper tickets or Myki Pass and avoid Myki Money like the plague.

So, if you don't really fancy the idea of tagging off (or getting penalised if you forget), stick to the short term paper tickets or Myki Pass and avoid Myki Money like the plague.

I'm sure that there are quite a lot of occasional users who will stick with 2-hour and Daily short term tickets - but I'm equally sure that the vast majority of trips will be undertaken on myki. The reason I can be so sure of this, is that we already make more than two thirds of our revenue from either periodical tickets and bulk purchased tickets. Most people who purchase passes should come across easily. Most people who purchase in bulk are regular users who will come across to myki - as it will ensure that they don't need to carry multiple tickets to get the best deal and will have a wider range of reload options.

A few other benefits of myki:

- your local retail agent will never be out of the ticket you want - they can just load your myki card with the pass or value that you require
- you can reload online and the balance will be added to your card the next time you travel (no more waiting for Metcards to be delivered)
- you can link your card to your bank account and never think about ticketing again!  

I think that customers will view the total solution as being far more user friendly that the current system.

This may seem a dumb question; but is it possible to look at; in the middle to long term; installing SEM's at certain platform stops?

It is absolutely possible - but I think that you'll find that it will be pretty rare for people to use SEMs at stations after the first couple of weeks.

When you have the space (for example the island stops @ University; Swanston/Flinders Streets) it would make perfect sense with the amount of people using the stop.

Don't forget that the CVMs will also be able to show the last transactions and that they will be installed at many major tram stops and bus interchanges. I don't know the exact locations, but Melbourne Uni is likely to get one as they already have a TVM installed there now.

Obviously you couldn't do it at say Fed Square; due to heaps of passenger movement.

I suspect that quite a lot of the passengers at Fed Square are transfering to/from the station. Not sure if it is to get a CVM or not.

I'm a little confused as how its only 6c. Would you be able to explain the formula that means that the it will only be 6c to travel into Zone 2 on weekends please.

I don't understand where the 6 cents comes from, but my reading of it is that for the extra zone you'd pay whatever is the difference between the daily rate of your pass, and the daily cap applicable for that day.

Forgive me if I mess any of this up, but using the 2008 prices (because the 2008 F+TM manual optimistically published the daily rates for Myki, whereas the 2009 doesn't):

Z1 costs per day for Weekly $4.00 / 28+ days $3.43

Z2 costs per day for Weekly $2.74 / 28+ days $2.30

So if my speculation is correct, Z1 ticketholders going into Z2 on a weekend (two-zone cap of $2.90), should pay no extra cost as they've already paid more than the cap.

For Z2 ticketholders going into Z1, it should be Weekly $0.16 / 28+ days $0.60.

This of course makes the following claim on the Myki web site untrue:

Will fares increase because of myki?

No, the introduction of myki will not result in an increase to fares."

On weekdays the cost of just buying the extra daily ticket for the additional zone (Myki money price) is way less than the amount it would cost to get up to the two-zone daily cap, at least for a Z1 user going into Z2. I'd speculate they'd charge you the lower of the two, but if Revenue isn't saying, I guess we'll need to wait and see.


Daniel

Come come Daniel - you can work it out.... what is the daily fare for travel in weekends?