dbowen Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
All Metropolitan lines except stations between Williamstown and North Williamstown and Alamein and Riversdale, will have a default of Zone 1 only (I think)
"Brendan03"


No, because once you enter the fare paid area (say at Williamstown) you can potentially change trains in the city and go out to zone 2 -- so for metro trains the default is a two-zone fare.

Trams/buses: it assumes you went to the end of the line.


Daniel

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  dbowen Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Trams run at a default fare of Zone 1 for all routes except 75, 86 and 109 when you touch on in Zone 2.
"r707"


Untested, but according to the wording in the manual (after the transition from Metcard is complete) it appears that if you board in the zone 1/2 overlap outbound on those routes, and don't touch-off, you would get charged a Zone 2 fare.

Daniel
  Brendan03 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I'll explain my failure to understand default fares.

The way I understood it, was that you got charged to the end of the line for that service, hence my belief that you got charged a Zone 1 for Williamstown line stations and Alamein line stations.
  dbowen Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
The way I understood it, was that you got charged to the end of the line for that service, hence my belief that you got charged a Zone 1 for Williamstown line stations and Alamein line stations.
"Brendan03"


Yep, the whole issue of default fares is a confusing area, but the manual (page 86) clearly states that if you touched-on in stations in zone 1 or 2, the default fare (full fare) is a $4.96 zone 1+2, 2-hour fare.


Daniel
  heisdeadjim Chief Commissioner

I'll explain my failure to understand default fares.

The way I understood it, was that you got charged to the end of the line for that service, hence my belief that you got charged a Zone 1 for Williamstown line stations and Alamein line stations.
"Brendan03"


As Daniel has explained, you're sorta right, but wrong. It's as far as you can go on that mode, not that line.

Say you touch on at Flinders Street - how does it know you're travelling to Williamstown or Alamein? It can't. So, a 1+2 provisional gets created. You tell it otherwise by touching off.

Works the came the other way. Touch on at Williamstown - zone 1, sure. But it still can't know where you're going so again, 1 + 2 provisional.

Same works for the buses: a bus route solely in zone 1 will calculate a provisional zone 1 only fare because that's as far as you can go. A Zone 2 only bus will create a zone 2 provisional fare. And so forth.
  melbtrip Chief Commissioner

Location: Annoying Orange
Trams run at a default fare of Zone 1 for all routes except 75, 86 and 109 when you touch on in Zone 2.
"r707"


Untested, but according to the wording in the manual (after the transition from Metcard is complete) it appears that if you board in the zone 1/2 overlap outbound on those routes, and don't touch-off, you would get charged a Zone 2 fare.

Daniel
"dbowen"


May I ask what part or page(s) of the manual it says the following or near the following:

Untested, but according to the wording in the manual (after the transition from Metcard is complete) it appears that if you board in the zone 1/2 overlap outbound on those routes, and don't touch-off, you would get charged a Zone 2 fare.
  heisdeadjim Chief Commissioner

How does the system know you're outbound? Don't say "it's because of the platform you touch on at" not so.

Think of the centre line Burnley - Camberwell - Box Hill. Depending on the time of day a train may be up, or down, on the middle platform.

They might have an issue during the off peak and run the ups via the Centre Line and the Downs on the down line, when normal travel pattern off peak is down line unused, ups and downs on the Up and Centre lines respectively.

No.
  richardlu_yy Chief Train Controller

Location: Singapore
I recently was in Singapore and have to say the EZ-Link card system is very impressive.

I believe its still early days but there are about 10,000 places to use the card, according to their website!

http://www.ezlink.com.sg/index.php

The fare structuring is excellent.  Its distance based so, for instance, going to the Jurong Bird Park from Town Hall MRT station would see something like a S$1.10 fare deducted for the train ride.  At the interchange station, hop on the connecting bus and swipe on.  Swipe off at the Bird Park stop and a further 9 cents is deducted to have the correct fare for the total distance.

This is a very fair system, requiring people to pay for exactly how far they travel and not requiring someone to pay a large flagfall for a very short trip whilst a longer traveller will pay the same fare.

It requires intelligent smartcard software.  Unlike our dumbed down, struggling to cope with 2 zones Myki.
"DalyWaters"

I have been using Ez-link for 8 years without any problem at all from the start. It is disappointing that for something introduced 8 years later, you still have to take your Myki out of your wallet to touch on when there is any other random RFID card present. And having written to Myki 5 times about being overcharged, no matter how much reason there is in my head I just feel very exasperated (most of the time, Myki failed to understand the simple concept of a weekend $3 cap). Better still, I have actually managed to touch a Myki reader on a tram Out of Service! Evil or Very Mad

Interestingly I have been charged a Zone 2-only fare after touching on and off several Zone 1-only tram routes and many of these trams have their Myki consoles set permanently on some tram stop on Plenty Road. So far most other Zone 1-only trams have their consoles set on Spencer/Lonsdale Streets.

The full distance-based fares in Singapore is a new fare structure introduced in 2010, I haven't been able to use it yet being stuck here for the summer. It used to be distance-based within a single mode of transport with transfer rebates where you get a discount transferring from bus-bus or bus-train. However they did screw up big time with the switchover by calculating and programming the distance between bus stops wrongly, overcharging many people in the process. Confused At least you could get a refund automatically if you have been overcharged just by placing the card on any ticketing machine, no forms to fill out at all.

I think Melbourne's 2-Zone system really needs to be rethinked, why not take London's approach, doesn't have to take a full distance-based system but at least make it more graded and hence fairer. I don't think it will make public transport fares more expensive across the board, though it will probably make a number of people unhappy (read: those who used to be in Zone 3).

Something that I really don't get is Price of Zone 1+2=Price of Zone 1+Price of Zone 2. So other than "having a single valid ticket for the entire journey", what is the point of the Zone 1+2 Myki product if it doesn't provide any other advantages?

Just a quick question, not sure if this has been answered before, but are tram ticket inspectors equipped with readers that can check your myki to see if you have touched on?
"Haydenthegunzel"

Yes I have had my Myki checked by Yarra Trams AOs very recently. However I believe they are more interested importantly in whether you have an active valid Myki product.
  Mitty Assistant Commissioner

Location: Hawthorn
It is disappointing that for something introduced 8 years later, you still have to take your Myki out of your wallet to touch on when there is any other random RFID card present.
"richardlu_yy"


No you don't.  Just put your myki in one half of your wallet, and any other RFID cards in the other half.  That's what I do and myki works fine if I hold my wallet open to the reader rather than closed.  I'm now so used to doing that its second nature, and as per the videos I've been taking all reads are very quick.  It's still easier than having to remove the card, and ten times easier than Metcard.
  AzN_dj Chief Commissioner

Location: Along route 69
At the moment, until Metcard is phased out, the default fare is for the zone you touch on in for trams and buses.
  Gauntlet Chief Commissioner

Location:
Trams run at a default fare of Zone 1 for all routes except 75, 86 and 109 when you touch on in Zone 2.
"r707"


Untested, but according to the wording in the manual (after the transition from Metcard is complete) it appears that if you board in the zone 1/2 overlap outbound on those routes, and don't touch-off, you would get charged a Zone 2 fare.

Daniel
"dbowen"


May I ask what part or page(s) of the manual it says the following or near the following:

Untested, but according to the wording in the manual (after the transition from Metcard is complete) it appears that if you board in the zone 1/2 overlap outbound on those routes, and don't touch-off, you would get charged a Zone 2 fare.
"melbtrip"


At the moment if you don't touch off on a tram it's a zone 1 fare.

This happened to me after I caught a tram from the overlap to Vermont South without touching off.

I has a zone 1 fare deducted while entering a  bus a few minutes later and a zone 2 fare debited at the start of my next trip.
  dkaarma Chief Train Controller

Can Myki cope with the free travel  that V/Line tickets provide?
  r707 Chief Commissioner

Location: Here
It will, in that in order to travel on V/Line to/from the city, you have to travel through zones 1 and 2. For country users any metropolitan trip you make is covered by the inward journey, while for city users heading out, the V/Line portion will just charge you from Zone 3 onwards (making the equivalent of free metropolitan travel).
  dbowen Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Trams run at a default fare of Zone 1 for all routes except 75, 86 and 109 when you touch on in Zone 2.
"r707"


Untested, but according to the wording in the manual (after the transition from Metcard is complete) it appears that if you board in the zone 1/2 overlap outbound on those routes, and don't touch-off, you would get charged a Zone 2 fare.

Daniel
"dbowen"


May I ask what part or page(s) of the manual it says the following or near the following:

Untested, but according to the wording in the manual (after the transition from Metcard is complete) it appears that if you board in the zone 1/2 overlap outbound on those routes, and don't touch-off, you would get charged a Zone 2 fare.
"melbtrip"


Actually I withdraw that comment, because it's changed in the latest edition of the manual. Page 84, where it talks about defaults, used to say the same for trams as for buses ("2 hour myki money fare between where a customer boards and the zone at the
end of the service"), but it now says $2.94 Zone 1. This matches Gauntlet's experience.

Daniel
  thadocta Chief Commissioner

Location: Katoomba
Note that with myki there are some situations where you don't need to touch off:

- if you are using a pass and making a trip wholly within the zone/zones for which the pass is valid.
"Morbo"


How will Myki know this if you don't touch off?

If you have a 30 day zone-1 pass, and you touch on at Footscray, but fail to touch off at Werribee OR Newport, either way, it won't know that you have a pass which is valid for the zone/zones travelled.

Dave
  richardlu_yy Chief Train Controller

Location: Singapore
If you have a valid Zone 1 Myki pass but fail to touch off, you will still get charged a default Zone 1+2 fare, which in the end is a Zone 2 only fare $2.02 (currently) to cover the zone that your pass did not cover.
  thadocta Chief Commissioner

Location: Katoomba
If you have a valid Zone 1 Myki pass but fail to touch off, you will still get charged a default Zone 1+2 fare, which in the end is a Zone 2 only fare $2.02 (currently) to cover the zone that your pass did not cover.
"richardlu_yy"
So making the statement I quoted - that there was no need to touch off if you had a pass and were travelling entirely within the validity of that pass - incorrect? (Which is the point I was trying to make!)

Dave
  richardlu_yy Chief Train Controller

Location: Singapore
Ok apologies I may have made a wrong assumption, this is what I dug up from the manual.

Default fares – myki passes
On V/Line train services, the conductor may reset the default fare up to the 2 hour fare for the zones of the entire route of the service in which the customer is travelling. For all other services, customers using a myki with a myki pass will not be charged a default fare unless they are commencing their journey outside the zone(s) for which their pass is valid. Normal myki money rules apply for travel outside the zone(s) covered by the pass (including default fares).

I believe this may give oppotunities for Myki pass holders to fare evade, however for bi-directional travel you won't be able to avoid this at least on the return journey anyway.
  Morbo Locomotive Driver

No that's not true. If you have a myki pass and don't touch off, no default fare will be charged. See 6th dot point on this link:

http://www.myki.com.au/default.aspx?ArticleID=186#1

If you have a zone 1 myki pass and touch on or off in zone 2, then a zone 2 fare will be taken from your myki money balance (up to the appropriate daily cap)
  thadocta Chief Commissioner

Location: Katoomba
No that's not true. If you have a myki pass and don't touch off, no default fare will be charged. See 6th dot point on this link:

http://www.myki.com.au/default.aspx?ArticleID=186#1

If you have a zone 1 myki pass and touch on or off in zone 2, then a zone 2 fare will be taken from your myki money balance (up to the appropriate daily cap)
"Morbo"
Nobody is talking about that.

What is being talked about is somebody with a Zone-1 Pass loaded onto a Myki, touching on in Zone 1, and failing to touch off.

See the post I responded to originally, which said that NO default fare will be charged to pass-holders as long as they touch on (only) within their zones.

As I said, they system has no way of knowig if they have travelled within their zone, unless they have touched off.

Dave
  richardlu_yy Chief Train Controller

Location: Singapore
Yes the system will have no way of knowing if a Zone 1 pass holder really travelled entirely within Zone 1. However I believe the system here gives the benefit of the doubt to Zone 1 pass holders, which as I said above may give opportunities for "legal" fare evasion, but in reality in bidirectional travel you won't be able to avoid this on your return trip if you travel to somewhere in Zone 2 because you will need to touch on again on your return trip anyway.

Basically a summary if you are a Zone 1 pass holder based on the Victorian Myki Ticketing Manual (the converse for Zone 2 pass holders)...

1. Touch on in Zone 1 but do not touch off, no default fare charged.
2. Touch on in Zone 1 and touch off in Zone 2 (which is what you are really supposed to do), Zone 2 fare charged to cover the difference.
3. Touch on in Zone 2, either way you will still be charged an extra Zone 2 fare to to cover the difference.
  SueB Locomotive Fireman

Location: Mt Evelyn
Question - my husband has now starting using his Myki.  We topped up online with $20 for Myki Money and tried to use the card a few days later on the bus.  The machine said "transaction declined".  So we then got off the bus and went to the station at Lilydale and went to the reader - still no balance showing.  So we touched on and then did a change of mind - it now showed the balance of $20 and from then onwards it has worked on the bus.  Does anyone know why this would happen?

But I must say he is enjoying his Myki - not having to find change.  He only uses public transport a couple of times a week so doesn't need to use a pass like I do.

This also happened to me last time I topped up my Myki pass.  I tried a week later on the bus and it was declined.  So I used a spare daily 1 + 2 Metcard that I had in my purse.  Wen I got to the station, the Myki worked, thereby wasiting a perfectly good Metcard.  Is something wrong with some of the machines on the buses?  Question
  Tremere Train Controller

Question - my husband has now starting using his Myki.  We topped up online with $20 for Myki Money and tried to use the card a few days later on the bus.  The machine said "transaction declined".  So we then got off the bus and went to the station at Lilydale and went to the reader - still no balance showing.  So we touched on and then did a change of mind - it now showed the balance of $20 and from then onwards it has worked on the bus.  Does anyone know why this would happen?
"SueB"


The myki hardware in the bus probably hasn't 'connected' for a few days, hence it didn't have your top up. Without someone to look at them every day (as opposed to Geelong etc. where its fully operational) they are more likely to fall out of sync.

The blue readers aren't connected so you can't 'collect' a top up from them.

'Hardwired' equipment (train validators and vending machines) are much more likely to work, so thats how you got it.

edit: If I were using a pass I would also keep some money on the card, if you fall below $0 for some reason/stuffup you'll get locked out after touch off.
  dbowen Assistant Commissioner

Location: Melbourne
Yes the system will have no way of knowing if a Zone 1 pass holder really travelled entirely within Zone 1. However I believe the system here gives the benefit of the doubt to Zone 1 pass holders, which as I said above may give opportunities for "legal" fare evasion
"richardlu_yy"


I think you mean "undetected", not "legal". Just because you aren't caught doesn't make it legal.

(It is possible for AOs to ask to check your Myki outside the Z2 station you have just left.)

Daniel
  duttonbay Minister for Railways

(It is possible for AOs to ask to check your Myki outside the Z2 station you have just left.)
Daniel
"dbowen"

Or, presumably, on the train while travelling in Zone 2?

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