New/imported steam locos on Vic narrow gauge?

 
  412M Assistant Commissioner

They'd look very unusual in Victoria, but then again though, there are already Queensland and Tasmanian 3'6" stuff running in Victoria, with a 2' South African NGG16 to be restored to service...

Not sure how management of either railway would react to the idea of these locos running on their railway.

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  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
Reconditioned?
http://www.multipowerinternational.com/narrowsale.html
If I were purchasing direct I'd go direct to China and avoid the hefty markups.
"allambee"


What kind of couplings are these.  They may be AAR, but they have a very wide whatsit to the left.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

They'd look very unusual in Victoria, but then again though, there are already Queensland and Tasmanian 3'6" stuff running in Victoria, with a 2' South African NGG16 to be restored to service...

Not sure how management of either railway would react to the idea of these locos running on their railway.
"412M"


They'd look out of place next to an NA, even to a non-rail fan.  But as you said there's other non-Vic locos at PBR and WGR now, plus everything at WGR is either TGR, QR or Vic industrial.

Probably neither railway would be interested, but for the sake of throwing around some hypotheticals...

More googling suggests that those Chinese C2 class locos were used on a fairly large number of industrial railways around China (most of which are closing or being converted to Diesel, with the exception of ones such as Shibanxi being considered for tourist railway development), and were still being built into the late 1980s.

A group from the Ffestiniog Railway and Welsh Highland Railway have bought one in the past few years and are restoring it (and regauging to 2'):
C2 project.

This will be the second 2'6" steamer regauged to 2' for use on a tourist railway in Wales, the other being a Hunslet from Sierra Leone currently at Welshpool.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

OK - after more googling and pipe dreaming, I have another question for engineers out there.

What's the minimum tractive effort that would be required for a useful steam loco at WGR or PBR?

NAs have a little over 12,000 lbs (according to PBR's website).

The Chinese C2s above have about 7,000 lbs according to the tech specs held by the guys who are restoring one in Wales.

The Henschel has ???  I can't find anything that says for sure, its builders number is quoted everywhere, but not what specific model it is which might have made tech specs easier to find (would it have been custom built?).  

The Henschel & Sohn "Riesa" class  here looks very similar, except for being 0-4-0 instead of 0-6-0, and has an tractive effort of 4,500 lbs.  (As far as I know, the number of wheels doesn't actually change the tractive effort, is this correct?)

So using the previous assumptions, and not taking later modifications into account, I'm guessing the Henschel has about 37% the tractive effort of an NA and the C2s have about 58%.

Having ascertained that the Henschel couldn't realistically or reliably pull a 3 car train, would the Chinese ones be strong enough to be useful?

Is the relationship between tractive effort and the potential maximum weight of the train linear?  I.e. double the tractive effort you can pull a train twice as long (I can't see why it wouldn't be... but I'm not an engineer).
  steamfreak Assistant Commissioner

Location: Wodonga, VIC

Is the relationship between tractive effort and the potential maximum weight of the train linear?  I.e. double the tractive effort you can pull a train twice as long (I can't see why it wouldn't be... but I'm not an engineer).
"Adogs"

Theoretically it is I think, but other factors come into play like adhesion.  

At Lower Trainswitch Fireman School I seem to recall learning that double headed locos were allowed 1.8 x the single loco load, whereas using a single header and a banker was allowed 1.9 x - purely for adhesion reasons.  These values no doubt change on the type of railway, locos and terrain.

I guess similar constraints might apply for a single, more powerful loco, although Garratts have an advantage with more feet on the ground so to speak.  A regauged NGG16 on the Walhalla line would be the go - they are made for the mountains!

[bigimg]http://pics.steamfreak.com/albums/2010-06-03%20Welsh%20Highland%20Railway/IMG_6493.jpg[/bigimg]
  dthead Site Admin

Location: Melbourne, Australia
I'm posting in terms of the  Walhalla Railway's "need" for a steam train to attract the crowds (which is my own percieved explaination). PBR seem to be OK I think at the moment.

http://www.dlm-ag.ch/en/shop

They were a company who for the right price could make a new steam loco - but one would have to get it shipped here, pass our codes od building. And  new info on the company is unknown by me.

There may be a chinese company will to build , also for the right price.

But it is a lot of money, and spares are a issue for any one off.


Regards,
David Head
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Exactly as suggested two posts above, my ultimate dream for Walhalla would be a regauged South African NGG (though I understand the purists preferring 18A or G43) Smile

I reckon steam has to be a long term goal for the WGR, BUT to be honest Walhalla can survive (for the time being) without steam.  Most people go to Walhalla to visit Walhalla in general (or go camping/biking etc), and take a ride on the train as it's one of the things to do there.  It also has dramatic scenery, as opposed (for example) the Mornington Railway, who need to run steam as the steam's the attraction, not the views of suburban backyards.

FWIW, my (unqualified and possibly completely erroneous) opinion is that the current management is taking the correct path in making a working diesel fleet the priority, which they can source and run for much cheaper than steamers.  I know that some of the WGR members strongly disagree with that, but...  

Realistically if they estimate it's going to cost $7m to restore to Erica (don't quote me on that figure, I can't remember where I heard that), and it'd probably cost a few million to build/import/restore a steamer whichever you slice it, then I'd be extending to Erica or at least Boola Rd first, assessing the best options regarding steam second.
  steamfreak Assistant Commissioner

Location: Wodonga, VIC
Exactly as suggested two posts above, my ultimate dream for Walhalla would be a regauged South African NGG (though I understand the purists preferring 18A or G43) Smile
"Adogs"


I guess it comes down to comparative costs of transporting/regauging/refurbishing an NGG16 or building from scratch.  I would expect the former to be the cheaper?  The later NGG16s had more mod cons like roller bearings and mechanical lubricators (or was that just the NGG16As?) - plus the 2-6-2+2-6-2 wheel arrangement would suit the curves better than the 2-6-0+0-6-2 - I hear noises from PB regarding G42's inside driving wheel flange wear being an issue?

New builds?  What about Dusty Durrant's proposed NGG17 Garratt?  Mmm...
  LLVR Chief Train Controller

Location: 303.3
Would it not be more logical to just aquire a 2" loco from QLD and regauge it
They are not running as heavyly loaded trains as PB so you would think this would suffice as there are plenty around.
  Rodo Chief Commissioner

Location: Southern Riverina
I think that the present Walker bo-bo diesel is a suitably historically correct loco - in that it is the type of thing that might have been introduced had the Wallhalla line been kept open. Diesel does the job but if steam can be economically used at times it does give a little extra interest. The main thing is that the line exists and is growing.
  steamfreak Assistant Commissioner

Location: Wodonga, VIC
I think that the present Walker bo-bo diesel is a suitably historically correct loco - in that it is the type of thing that might have been introduced had the Wallhalla line been kept open. Diesel does the job but if steam can be economically used at times it does give a little extra interest. The main thing is that the line exists and is growing.
"Rodo"

Rodo - I agree.  We have been going to Walhalla for years from the early 70's.  It was a bonus then to have Ron Kain's loco chugging up and down Walhalla yard, but once that folded we kept going there.  And will continue to do so.  Steam would be great, but the journey itself is pretty spectacular whatever the power.  

A 2' steam loco on the firewood tramway and an NGG16 on the VR line...  Nice.  Stringer's Creek gorge would sound good!
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

According to wikipedia, 11 out of the 12 NGG13s survive, and ALL of the 34 NGG16s survive in some form (including the one at PBR).  

A good number of those are in working order, and a lot of those that aren't are already actively owned by someone either for display, parts or future restoration.

However, two of those listed as survivors were as of 2009 rusting into the ground in the loco graveyard in Port Elizabeth.  Link here for photos, one NGG13 under cover, one NGG16 dismantled and outside.  Note the words "not for sale" spray painted on the side of one of them.  

This depot was apparently later demolished, with some of the items of high heritage value moved to another depot.  Don't know what their future plans are...

Furthermore, there are some NGG16s in a severely rusted state here which don't look like they have much of a future at present.

But there would also be more narrow gauge garratts elsewhere in Africa which might be better candidates?  After the civil war in Sierra Leone finished, the government built a railway museum to collect all the locos and carriages that could be found after 30 years, and apparently at least 1 garratt turned up... and as I've said I think 3 times in this thread, they're already 2'6" and would save you a few hundred grand in regauging costs Wink
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Would it not be more logical to just aquire a 2" loco from QLD and regauge it
They are not running as heavyly loaded trains as PB so you would think this would suffice as there are plenty around.
"LLVR"


Maybe, but wouldn't any ex-cane railway loco you bought risk being another Henschel that doesn't have the pulling power?  Or am I way off the mark in guessing the relative strength of the 2' ones that are sitting around in Queensland?

Their trains aren't as heavy as PBR at the moment, but they'll want them to be in future, so I don't see any point in getting another steamer unless it's approaching at least NA power.

I think that the present Walker bo-bo diesel is a suitably historically correct loco - in that it is the type of thing that might have been introduced had the Wallhalla line been kept open. Diesel does the job but if steam can be economically used at times it does give a little extra interest. The main thing is that the line exists and is growing.
"Rodo"


Agree 100%.
  steamfreak Assistant Commissioner

Location: Wodonga, VIC
But there would also be more narrow gauge garratts elsewhere in Africa which might be better candidates?  After the civil war in Sierra Leone finished, the government built a railway museum to collect all the locos and carriages that could be found after 30 years, and apparently at least 1 garratt turned up... and as I've said I think 3 times in this thread, they're already 2'6" and would save you a few hundred grand in regauging costs Wink
"Adogs"

Yes, your logic makes perfect sense.  I wonder what condition they are in?  But, dammit!  I like NGG16's!  I have played with them at Alfred County, Port Elizabeth, Sandstone and Welsh Highland.  I am selfishly just wanting one here because I want one nearby.   Evil or Very Mad
  sthyer Deputy Commissioner

But there would also be more narrow gauge garratts elsewhere in Africa which might be better candidates?  After the civil war in Sierra Leone finished, the government built a railway museum to collect all the locos and carriages that could be found after 30 years, and apparently at least 1 garratt turned up... and as I've said I think 3 times in this thread, they're already 2'6" and would save you a few hundred grand in regauging costs Wink
"Adogs"


Slight correction. A British Infantry Colonel discovered the workshops at Freetown while serving in the peacekeeping troops. He commenced and initially funded the restoration and conservation effort. All the locomotives and carriages had survived in the workshops despite not having run for many many years. It is a truly remarkable story, one I was fortunate to hear in 2009.

Look at the whole story and fantastic photos http://www.theworkshops.qm.qld.gov.au/Events+and+Exhibitions/Events/2009/10/Railway+Heritage+Conference and scroll down to Financial Sustainability & Economics (day 3, session 3)

The Colonel is now the Director of the NRM at York. If you want to get your hands on the Garratt, just remember he has powerful friends (including the President of Sierra Leone) and has been trained to kill. Good luck Laughing

Actually, scrolling through his slides reminded me that he was a very good presenter and told the whole story off the cuff, thus the slide shows are purely images.
In a nutshell, he buys a book on the Sierra Leone railways shortly before deployment, gets to Sierra Leone, spends a bit of spare time checking out the remains of the lines, then locates the workshop wedged among the shanties in town and opens the door to discover everything still there. He is very quickly accosted by the former workshop manager of the railway who has kept an eye on the place since everything closed, despite not being paid.
He decides to clean up and secure the place, employs a few locals to help him, tells the President what he's up to, President has a look, promises to get the Police to keep a good eye on the place. He continues to self fund restorations, i think at some stage, some Gov't money comes his way as well. He also fights off strong interest by the Chinese in redeveloping the site, completes restorations and has an official opening. He even gets the diesels up and running again by calling on passing British warships, who regularly call into Freetown when on deployment to the Falklands, to lend him mechanics for a couple of days.
A fantastic story, would reccomend that if you're passing through Freetown to drop in............
  Rodo Chief Commissioner

Location: Southern Riverina
I would consider that ressurrecting some broken down old rusted out hulks to be beyond the resources of the Walhalla railway. PBR has the facilities to rebuild these grandfathers axe like ruins and appears to to have a great surplus of workable steam locos. Maybe the least reliable of these things could be cascaded to Walhalla and steamed perhaps once a year or so for special events ?

On the subject of dreaming - perhaps the thing is to build the proposed branch to the Walhalla railway to Fumina South. This could now go on as an extension from about Moondara via Hill End. Thence via Icy Creek and Noojee through Neerim to join with the still proposed PBR extension from Gembrook about Beenak.

This would be about the best senic mountain, forest and farmland railway in the world, far surpassing the Welsh Highland Railway. Of course loco transfers between the 2' 6" systems would be seamless and around eastern Vic. day tours would be easily accomplished by adding the Erica to Moe bus services to link at Moe. Fast RFR services would thus provide a gunzell's dream and an interesting contrast to the slow and meandering journey eastwards from Belgrave.

Oh !  - - I could wax lyrical for hours.  Very Happy
  X49 Beginner

And while we are dreaming, perhaps an XPT set could be re-gauged so Moondarra housewives could go shopping in Gembrook with out taking all day to get there. Rolling Eyes

now we are are getting silly...........................sorry

Wes
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
And while we are dreaming, perhaps an XPT set could be re-gauged so Moondarra housewives could go shopping in Gembrook with out taking all day to get there. Rolling Eyes

now we are are getting silly...........................sorry

Wes
"X49"

Of course that is silly! Rolling Eyes Both the Walhalla and Gembrook lines are narrow gauge, so you'd have to regauge a Queensland tilt train if you want to go 150 kph on those tracks.
  Rodo Chief Commissioner

Location: Southern Riverina
Absolutely Bogong,

Of course Moondarra housewives already have a reasonable shopping link via the bus to Moe, thence RFR to Pakenham, thence a reasonable bus service via Pakenham Upper to Gembrook.

I doubt if even a regauged Cairns Tilt Train could compete with this timing from Erica-Gembrook. However suitably modified Walker railcars could do this job and could provide far better wintertime travelling conditions than most existing 2' 6" rollingstock. Housewives from Vesper, Nayook and even Beenak may find such a service convenient, perhaps travelling as far afield as Cockatoo or Belgrave.

Hail to Great Western Gippsland Mountain Rail Expressway - superior to the Welsh Highland Railway in every fashion.
  ssj Chief Train Controller

It might just be happening already!

From “”Steam Railway” magazine No 376 – may/June 2010 page 36

“The other intended NBLPG  purchase , “24” 2-8-4 No 3647, has now passed into the hands of Greg McLennan of the National Locomotive Company in Australia”

(North British Locomotive Preservation Group – erstwhile repatriators of “British Locomotives” from South Africa)
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Slight correction. A British Infantry Colonel discovered the workshops at Freetown while serving in the peacekeeping troops. He commenced and initially funded the restoration and conservation effort. All the locomotives and carriages had survived in the workshops despite not having run for many many years. It is a truly remarkable story, one I was fortunate to hear in 2009.

Look at the whole story and fantastic photos http://www.theworkshops.qm.qld.gov.au/Events+and+Exhibitions/Events/2009/10/Railway+Heritage+Conference and scroll down to Financial Sustainability & Economics (day 3, session 3)

The Colonel is now the Director of the NRM at York. If you want to get your hands on the Garratt, just remember he has powerful friends (including the President of Sierra Leone) and has been trained to kill. Good luck Laughing
"sthyer"


That's an interesting read.  I hadn't heard any of that, I think my prior knowledge came from a travel blog from a non-gunzel perspective.

That Garratt's doing a good job of being a pioneering article of local rail heritage where it is, so I'd be concerned as to the motives of the museum management if they were willing to part with it.  (But I also reserve the right to keep dreaming of finding another one forgotten in a paddock or shed somewhere which is up for sale).
  blue520 Train Controller

Any one have any idea of the status of the Nepal Government Railways remaining Tank and Garratt locomotives? They were up for sale a number of years ago but nothing happened.

All so on the side a totally pie in the sky money is not a issue project I would like to see is the restoration of the Powelltown Shay on to 3' 6" trucks to tour lines in all Australian states and the NT. Followed by a return to Vic. and being put on 2' 6" trucks.
  Bogong Chief Commissioner

Location: Essendon Aerodrome circa 1980
... I would like to see is the restoration of the Powelltown Shay on to 3' 6" trucks to tour lines in all Australian states and the NT. Followed by a return to Vic. and being put on 2' 6" trucks.
"blue520"

I thought both Powelltown Shays were scrapped. But it's great news if one of them survived, where is it?
  gunzel42 Locomotive Fireman

 ...Slight correction. A British Infantry Colonel discovered the workshops at Freetown while serving in the peacekeeping troops. He commenced and initially funded the restoration and conservation effort. All the locomotives and carriages had survived in the workshops despite not having run for many many years. It is a truly remarkable story, one I was fortunate to hear in 2009.

Look at the whole story and fantastic photos http://www.theworkshops.qm.qld.gov.au/Events+and+Exhibitions/Events/2009/10/Railway+Heritage+Conference and scroll down to Financial Sustainability & Economics (day 3, session 3)
"sthyer"


Could not agree more Stuart, that presentation was one of the highlights of the Railway Heritage Conference and showed just what can be achieved when you set your mind to it and roll up the sleeves.
  Adogs Chief Train Controller

Any one have any idea of the status of the Nepal Government Railways remaining Tank and Garratt locomotives? They were up for sale a number of years ago but nothing happened.
"blue520"


Don't know any details as to current status, but I know of at least one case in which people tried to acquire a loco from Nepal for preservation in the UK, but were thwarted by the bureaucracy at the Nepalese end.

The Cuban government also offered up a large number of old sugar mill locos for sale in 2004, including a number of Baldwin-built 2-8-0s, but none sold and eventually they were withdrawn from sale.  Apparently they were in poor condition and significantly over-priced (one of the the same vintage had its boiler explode two years prior to the rest being put on sale).

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