SteamtoStay Chief Commissioner

Location: Building floorplates
The main issue with the Short Term Tickets of the touch variety is that they cost 30c a pop to produce.
"tomohawk"

Source?

Given that a single ticket in the Regional cities is only 10c more expensive than the myki equivalent fare, that's not economical. One might argue that the costs are much better stacked in Melbourne, where the price difference would cover the cost of the ticket, and be enough incentive to get a myki over a short term ticket. For a Geelong passenger, 50c a week isn't very much to pay to buy a ticket every day compared with a myki...
"tomohawk"

I've often wondered how costs per 2hr/daily/etc are decided for a particular area.

The way I'd probably do that would be to define equal geographic areas, not taking into account total population or population spread, but taking into account the average vehicle loading, route frequencies and route operation hours, and use the area with the median score as a base value (as a percentage of total running costs for the entire statewide system), then multiply or divide for all other geographic areas.

However, all prices would be rounded to the nearest $0.50 (half-day or less), $2.00 (daily), $5.00 (weekly), etc. for simplicity. And this formula would be used every time, with the median figure and scoring recalculated from scratch every year rather than simply having a CPI figure added.

Then, the total of revenue plus subsidy (after Metlink/PTDA running costs) to be given to operators would be divided by geographic area based on patronage, and between modes within each of those areas.

I have specified geographic areas rather than population areas because that means there will be a constant number of areas of fairly equal sizes (so no redrawing of boundaries will be necessary until/unless the states are abolished despite the constitution), and changes to ticket prices over time will reflect changes in service rather than changes in local population - which I hope would encourage greater service coverage.

(Note however that I've come up with this at 3am in about ten minutes...)

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  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
why remove the Metcard machines on trams when they are not going to install the myki machines?


Because Metcard will be finished, dead, kapunkt, no more, curled up its tootsies and joined the choir invisible.  It is an ex-ticketing system.

The machines belong to the system supplier and have to be removed and returned at the end of the contract.  That originally ended a while ago but has been extended to cover the lack of introduction to service of Myki.

There will continue to be a need to have single-use tickets available on trams just as there is on buses.  Not everyone needs the flexibility of a Myki account.  There must be some means of purchasing a single-use ticket on board a tram however that is organised unless we are to regress to a less user-friendly network which demands that potential users not only understand the ticketing system first (which visitors and many residents do not) and also seek out a prepurchase outlet (which may not be nearby and may not be open either).

The number of passengers using trams makes it impractical for drivers to issue tickets (this was tried in early post-connie years and "out of hours" when no connies were working and was a dismal failure); the options are to replace one machine with another or to have on-board sales from a staff member.  I know which one the politicians would reject immediately - the same one which many passengers would welcome!  But with bus drivers able to issue single-use tickets why should tram passengers be treated differently?

The Metcard TVMs are leaving us.  But they need something to come in their place.
  Tremere Train Controller

The main issue with the Short Term Tickets of the touch variety is that they cost 30c a pop to produce.
"tomohawk"

"SteamtoStay"

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/state-election-2010/bill-for-myki-rises-again-20101125-1895g.html

I wrote on another forum (Whirlpool), that at the current price, the TTA would (probably) recover more money by simply giving some serial short term* ticket users free myki's.

*mostly those under 17 who don't get them for free.
  Mitty Assistant Commissioner

Location: Hawthorn
I wonder if we'll now have another free myki offer to try and coax more people onto the system.  The other thing that may happen (particularly now that they are trying to get rid of STT's and CVM's on trams) is giving a refund for anonymous myki's similar to Octopus.  It would be much more palatable to people (including visitors to Melbourne) that they return their myki for a refund if it's an anonymous one, and no longer required.
  PClark Chief Commissioner

Mitty wrote:-

“The other thing that may happen ......... is giving a refund for anonymous myki's similar to Octopus. It would be much more palatable to people (including visitors to Melbourne) that they return their myki for a refund if it's an anonymous one, and no longer required.”

Good point!

Listening to talkback radio and to people I talk with it seems that one of the biggest objections to myki comes from those whose use of public transport is not zero but very infrequent (e.g. those who catch the train once or twice a year to go to the Grand Final or Melbourne Cup) and who object to having to fork out a “dead” amount for a piece of plastic and then pay for their trip on top of it.

I realise that the cost of the card is only a few bucks but, in principle, such once-in-a-blue-moon passengers object to paying what is, in effect, a “subscription” or “membership fee” before paying for their actual journey.

The question is whether obtaining a refund for an unwanted myki would be a simple matter of handing the card over a counter and being given cash or whether it would be a bureaucratic matter of filling in a form and waiting 30 days for a petty cash cheque in the mail.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
Valid points but needless ones if viewed at from a user perspective.

It defies logic that a major city (and Melbourne isn't the only one) charges money to "purchase" a ticket in addition to the fare.  It also appears outwardly very alien to the unfamiliar user (in other words the occasional or optional traveller but still the potential customer) to have to jump through even low hoops to get the best out of the system.

Why on Earth is it not possible to simply have a standard single-use ticket option?  It can be done on buses.  It can be done on trains.  It needs to be kept on trams.  And it doesn't take much to imprint on a basic bit of card enough details to verify date, time and location of issue so that it can be used as a multimodal if the system permits.

Of course it is possible.

But there are those who make decisions who are completely out of touch with the reality of travelling public needs and who will be blinded by the ability of an electronic system to do "anything" provided the users dance to its tune.

Ticketing should work the other way round and be made to fit the needs, not the user made to fit the system.
  AzN_dj Chief Commissioner

Location: Along route 69
For those intrested, nice row of 4 myki barriers are currently being installed at the Collins end entrance to the VLine Platforms of Southern Cross. Once this is finished a week later the next 8 will be installed then work will start on the Bourke St Bridge......
"Z181"


Will the new Myki barriers have directional signage? Its time Melbourne moved to dedicated direction ticket barriers, such as that scene in Sydney and most other cities such as London or Hong Kong.

"MelbourneCity"

That photo is not from Sydney, London, OR Hong Kong.
Ikebukuro is a district of Tokyo, Japan.

I don't see how it is possible to have a ticketing system with no short term use ticket. As for the 30c cost, NFC Passive tags are becoming common place, and when their roll out is more wide spread, the cost should decrease quite quickly - maybe to the point where it is the same cost as encoding a barcode strip on a metcard.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
I don't believe there is any intention to not have a short-use ticket.  The issue has been created by the announcement that Metcard TVM's are (quite rightly) being taken off trams without a Myki equivalent replacing them this is taken to mean there will be no option to purchase single-use or short-term tickets on trams.

Trams are seen by some as a thorn in the side of ticketing systems because they don't "behave" as either a train or as a bus but fall between.

Passenger volumes are way too high to consider driver-issue and this also falls down due to the number of doorways.  It has also been proven impractical (read "impossible" depending on how stubborn you consider Melburnians to be) to get everyone to even enter by the front door for ticket checking purposes.

Tickets can be bought at railway stations from machines firmly fixed to the ground and hard-wired to the control system.  Driver-issue tickets are the accepted norm on buses almost where ever one goes and the lack of them causes significant confusion among irregular users in London (at least) to cite an example known to me.  What makes the London example worse is that pre-pay operates only in the busier central areas (on all routes) and on a few routes for their full length meaning there is no single system and no one-rule-fits-all to go by.

The Myki system seems incapable of dealing with tram-issue on a moving vehicle remote from its depot and this part of the system has - we are told - been axed.  Many trams users would already hold a multimodal ticket issued elsewhere or a periodical of some kind but a quite significant number - tourists included - do not and will continue to need the facility to purchase on-board a short-term ticket.
  Speed Minister for Railways

The words "eliminating ... the introduction of disposable short-term cards" suggests that there is an intention not to have the existing short term Myki tickets, removing the need for machines that sell them.

Presumably, there will be short term tickets available. Until we know what form they take, we can only conjecture what type of machine would sell them. It will ideally be an arrangement that doesn't require the replacement of existing vending machines at railway stations.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
I fear that there may be some resistance once some people realise that when Myki starts flying solo, and that they will be forced to part with $10 (adult) or $7 (concession / child) for a Myki card, and then be expected to add value to it in order to travel.

Interesting to note that once we have bought said Myki card, it doesn't actually become the property of the cardholder, and may be returned to TTA (Transport Ticketing Authority) upon demand, and without notice to the cardholder.
The Card remains the property of TTA. TTA or its authorised representatives may inspect, deactivate, suspend or take possession of the Card or demand its return at any time in their discretion without notice to the Cardholder. The Cardholder must comply with any directions of TTA or its representatives in this regard.
http://www.myki.com.au/Home/myki-Terms-of-Use/myki-Terms-of-Use/default.aspx
My opinion is that if TTA retains ownership of the card, then they should bear the cost of production and issuing of the cards, similar to ATM and credits cards issued by the banks.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
I ask because I don't know but what is the legal position on this?  

If we are required to pay for the Myki card itself in addition to fares then what is it we are actually paying for if the card does not become our property?

And what is the position in other places using similar systems?

As for "some resistance" I shall file that in "Understatement of the Year Bogie Nominations"  8)  I suspect there might also be more than "some" resistance when an AO attempts to withdraw a Myki in support of a report of offence and finds a passenger who - having paid out for the card plus the fare - refuses to co-operate and hand over "his" ticket.
  spottyrahr Chief Commissioner

I fear that there may be some resistance once some people realise that when Myki starts flying solo, and that they will be forced to part with $10 (adult) or $7 (concession / child) for a Myki card, and then be expected to add value to it in order to travel.

Interesting to note that once we have bought said Myki card, it doesn't actually become the property of the cardholder, and may be returned to TTA (Transport Ticketing Authority) upon demand, and without notice to the cardholder.
The Card remains the property of TTA. TTA or its authorised representatives may inspect, deactivate, suspend or take possession of the Card or demand its return at any time in their discretion without notice to the Cardholder. The Cardholder must comply with any directions of TTA or its representatives in this regard.
http://www.myki.com.au/Home/myki-Terms-of-Use/myki-Terms-of-Use/default.aspx
My opinion is that if TTA retains ownership of the card, then they should bear the cost of production and issuing of the cards, similar to ATM and credits cards issued by the banks.
"xxxxlbear"


The banks charge account fee's though. That usually covers the cost of a card. If you lose it, break it, damage it, etc you need to pay the cost of a new card. Which is usually a lot higher than the cost of a Myki.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
Bank fees aren't necessarily obligatory though.
There are options with alot of bank/credit union accounts to eliminate transaction fees if one chooses to do so, such as having minimum balances, not using foreign ATMs, and having online accounts, depending on which bank it is. I don't accrue ANY fees, as I have a day-to-day transaction account with Westpac, for government benefit recepients, and it includes a suitably micro-chipped Mastercard debit card, which I neither paid any upfront fee for, nor pay for through transaction fees.

The difference between bank accounts, and the Myki card, is that everyone buying a Myki card is asked to pay either $10 or $7 for a card upfront. Bank ATM cards are handed out without any obligation of the card holder to pay upfront.

I am big a fan of passengers getting their first Myki card for free, and then if they lose or destroy that card, they pay the $10/7 fee upfront for the replacement.
  kiwiguy72 Locomotive Fireman

Location: Melbourne
Bank fees aren't necessarily obligatory though.
There are options with alot of bank/credit union accounts to eliminate transaction fees if one chooses to do so, such as having minimum balances, not using foreign ATMs, and having online accounts, depending on which bank it is. I don't accrue ANY fees, as I have a day-to-day transaction account with Westpac, for government benefit recepients, and it includes a suitably micro-chipped Mastercard debit card, which I neither paid any upfront fee for, nor pay for through transaction fees.

The difference between bank accounts, and the Myki card, is that everyone buying a Myki card is asked to pay either $10 or $7 for a card upfront. Bank ATM cards are handed out without any obligation of the card holder to pay upfront.

I am big a fan of passengers getting their first Myki card for free, and then if they lose or destroy that card, they pay the $10/7 fee upfront for the replacement.
"xxxxlbear"


This can't work for anonymous myki cards though. Remember that the original free mykis were only available from the website and were registered.

You cannot have free anonymous mykis as this would lead to fraud. Because you can legally travel with $0.01 on the card - as you can go into negative for one trip only - you could get a free anonymous myki from the station put $1 on it, travel to the end of the line (on V/Line this could be quite far), touch off and then throw the card away. You could even stockpile cards by collecting one (at the moment) from every staffed station or (in future) from the station machines.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
So fix the loophole rather than "fixing" the system.  There's at least one person here will never pay for a Myki card which I don't retain ownership of.  If I have to purchase the card itself then I believe ownership of that card transfers to me.  I certainly don't intend to "rent a ticket" on top of paying fares.

I hear the "best fare" arguments but as I have posted here before this is only a marketing ploy.  "Best fare" has always been available by purchasing a yearly; anything shorter and the notional cost per trip rises.  Yet most people, network-wide, still travel on 2-hour tickets.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
Perhaps an alternative could be that if you choose to obtain an anonymous Myki card, then the $10/7 fee applies upfront, but if you choose to obtain a Myki card with name and address, then the fee only applies if you need a 'named' Myki card re-issued (such as in the case of loss).

And of course, ANY card is open to fraud, whether it be an ATM card, credit card card, or a Myki card.
  Speed Minister for Railways

I don't think that I will ever pay for a Myki card, regardless of who owns it. I already got mine for freeeee.

If you lose it, break it, damage it, etc you need to pay the cost of a new [ATM or credit card], which is usually a lot higher than the cost of a Myki
"SpottyRahr"

There are options with a lot of bank/credit union accounts to eliminate transaction fees
"XXXXLBear"

To put it simply, a lost card replacement fee is not a regular transaction fee. It's unlikely that a bank would offer a budget account that waived such a fee.
  kiwiguy72 Locomotive Fireman

Location: Melbourne
So fix the loophole rather than "fixing" the system.  There's at least one person here will never pay for a Myki card which I don't retain ownership of.  If I have to purchase the card itself then I believe ownership of that card transfers to me.  I certainly don't intend to "rent a ticket" on top of paying fares.

I hear the "best fare" arguments but as I have posted here before this is only a marketing ploy.  "Best fare" has always been available by purchasing a yearly; anything shorter and the notional cost per trip rises.  Yet most people, network-wide, still travel on 2-hour tickets.
"Gwiwer"


I'm not sure what you consider a loophole. The physical myki cards do cost money and do allow a negative balance, for a number of reasons, one being that if, for any reason you're unable to top up at your origin, at least you can still travel.

The best fare argument isn't relevant here and I wasn't discussing that. We are discussing the need for people to pay for cards.

I agree that registered mykis should be offered free, either from the website or when filling in a form (with ID) at a station etc, however anonymous cards should be charged for

Apologies, have tried posting this numerous times, but Railpage is so incredibly slow and frustrating at the meoment
  AzN_dj Chief Commissioner

Location: Along route 69
What about a refundable card purchase fee? If you pay $10 for the card, you should be able to refund that $10 on the spot at a station, provided there is a positive balance. Or maybe only $5, as the card may cost a small amount to manufacture.

There is also the option to recycle long term mykis (and short term mykis) as the tags are read/write. Its just the "prettiness" factor, and if you bend one of the short term ones, then the antenna will be damaged.
  heisdeadjim Chief Commissioner

I would idly point out that apart from the purchase cost of the initial card, there's nothing fundamentally different in the ownership of "your" myki to "your" eft or credit card.

Have a look at your bank's Electronic Banking Terms and Conditions. You'll see guff about it remaining the property of XYZ Bank.
  xxxxlbear Token Booking Clerk

Location: Geelong
I don't think that I will ever pay for a Myki card, regardless of who owns it. I already got mine for freeeee.

If you lose it, break it, damage it, etc you need to pay the cost of a new [ATM or credit card], which is usually a lot higher than the cost of a Myki
"SpottyRahr"

There are options with a lot of bank/credit union accounts to eliminate transaction fees
"XXXXLBear"

To put it simply, a lost card replacement fee is not a regular transaction fee. It's unlikely that a bank would offer a budget account that waived such a fee.
"Speed"
I wasn't alluding to a 'lost card fee'. Maybe it is just symantics, but although I find paying for a Myki card obnoxious, I was merely trying to find a way for TT to charge for Myki cards....anonymous cards-fee charged upfront, registered cards-fee payable only upon request for a replacement. As I said, it is just symantics.
  Gwiwer Rt Hon Gentleman and Ghost of Oliver Bulleid

Location: Loitering in darkest Somewhere
I would idly point out that apart from the purchase cost of the initial card, there's nothing fundamentally different in the ownership of "your" myki to "your" eft or credit card.

Have a look at your bank's Electronic Banking Terms and Conditions. You'll see guff about it remaining the property of XYZ Bank.
"heisdeadjim"


Quite right.

However the difference - and it may be an important difference to some people - lies in the initial charge.  We are asked to effectively purchase a Myki card; we are not asked to purchase a credit or EFT card even though there may be an annual fee for its use.

This may be tested at Law at some stage and while I don't doubt the legal people have already gone through everything very finely (and added to the system's cost through their fees while doing so)  it may simply be an area where there is no defining enactment and as yet no case history.

We pay some of the cheapest fares going.  The actual cost in Dollars is not the issue (for me - though again it may be for others) so much as the way it is pitched at us.

As Mr. Bear says it may be semantics but I still see it as double-dipping.  I have never been asked to pay separately for an Edmonson-style tickets on top of the fare, nor for a Metcard-style electronic ticket.  I wasn't asked to pay for my Metcard Express despite the significant costs involved in the supply and coding of those tickets.  I therefore see no reason to change now and certainly object strongly to the concept of "rent-a-ticket".
  heisdeadjim Chief Commissioner

The other difference, though, is that to get the "free" bank issued card you have to satisfy a 100 point ID check.

No such requirement exists with myki.

So that's the parallel: free card and full ID check, or, non free card small purchase price.

While I understand your point, Gwiwer respectfully I discount it as a tenuous objection. The 100 point ID process takes time to submit and has costs to administer, while the cost is "free" the bank recoups that with subsequent fees and charges over time.

A one off myki card fee is actually quite cheap when the whole process is taken into account. If a comparison is to be made with bank cards then a holistic view of both processes must be made.
  jonas_jade Locomotive Driver

Location: Melbourne / Brisbane
^^

Also forgetting that a myki will allow you to go into "debit" for one trip, albeit one trip once you are, and as such if you are giving the card away for free people would be able to get a myki, top up $1, make their trip and go into debit for the trip amount.

Don't doubt that people won't, I know a friend of mine who has done such with a go card for trips to the airport, as the cost of a go card is less that than the Airtrain fare.
  SueB Locomotive Fireman

Location: Mt Evelyn
I am a fan of both the Myki and Metcard seeing advantages and disadvantages with both.  One of the problems remaining with Myki is the touching off on buses.  As I live in Mt Evelyn, when I get off my bus at Lilydale station there are only about 6 people on it as it's 7am.  What is going to happen on buses around the suburbs when a fully loaded bus arrives and everyone has to touch off.  Won't this increase bus stopping times and makes buses late?  Can something be done about this?  Also I'm still having touch on/off problems with the bus.  It's hit and miss whether it works or not - I never have problems with the trains though. Confused

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