NSWRTM Vintage Train Day

 
  BM3801 Lobster

Location: Go Hard or Go Home!
Just out of Intrest where have Most of the Exhibits gone to?
"lsrailfan"


Good question, I believe that some went to Broadmeadow, but the others ?
Does anyone know where both the 32 class are stored?
"oldmodeller"


I know that some went to Broadmeadow, Valley Heights, and Goulburn. Im unsure if there are more locations or not. Someone else can expand further if needed 

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  oldmodeller Locomotive Driver

Just out of Intrest where have Most of the Exhibits gone to?
"lsrailfan"


Good question, I believe that some went to Broadmeadow, but the others ?
Does anyone know where both the 32 class are stored?
"oldmodeller"


I know that some went to Broadmeadow, Valley Heights, and Goulburn. Im unsure if there are more locations or not. Someone else can expand further if needed 
"BM3801"


Thanks for your reply, located 3214 at Valley Heights and 3203 out in the open at Broadmeadow.
  Tuscan Junior Train Controller

Location: Sydney, NSW
Just out of Intrest where have Most of the Exhibits gone to?
"lsrailfan"


Good question, I believe that some went to Broadmeadow, but the others ?
Does anyone know where both the 32 class are stored?
"oldmodeller"


I know that some went to Broadmeadow, Valley Heights, and Goulburn. Im unsure if there are more locations or not. Someone else can expand further if needed 
"BM3801"


Thanks for your reply, located 3214 at Valley Heights and 3203 out in the open at Broadmeadow.
"oldmodeller"


Oldmodeller, 3203 is back on it's pony truck and inside No.2 roundhouse.

Cheers.
  oldmodeller Locomotive Driver

Just out of Intrest where have Most of the Exhibits gone to?
"lsrailfan"


Good question, I believe that some went to Broadmeadow, but the others ?
Does anyone know where both the 32 class are stored?
"oldmodeller"


I know that some went to Broadmeadow, Valley Heights, and Goulburn. Im unsure if there are more locations or not. Someone else can expand further if needed 
"BM3801"


Thanks for your reply, located 3214 at Valley Heights and 3203 out in the open at Broadmeadow.
"oldmodeller"


Oldmodeller, 3203 is back on it's pony truck and inside No.2 roundhouse.

Cheers.
"Tuscan"


Thanks for that.
  lelo4851 Junior Train Controller

Location: Lower Blue Mountains , NSW
i find that the lack of advistising for theses events is put put it nicly 'rubbish 'but hey thats just my opinion
the whole idea of trainwrecks aka trainworks knowing what there doing is just bs
i mean look what they did to the mail sorting van
  UP9372 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Banned
i find that the lack of advistising for theses events is put put it nicly 'rubbish 'but hey thats just my opinion
the whole idea of trainwrecks aka trainworks knowing what there doing is just bs
i mean look what they did to the mail sorting van
"lelo4851"


Well, Mr Know it all, what did they do to it?
  1210_5910 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Over the Hills & far away...
i find that the lack of advistising for theses events is put put it nicly 'rubbish 'but hey thats just my opinion
the whole idea of trainwrecks aka trainworks knowing what there doing is just bs
i mean look what they did to the mail sorting van
"lelo4851"


Well, Mr Know it all, what did they do to it?
"UP9372"


Hi UP9372

Not to start a flamewar or anything, but Lelo4851 is correct - checkout the link below from around the 15:45 point.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkDj11LSRaQ

I'm not affiliated with any museum's or preservation mobs, but this is absolutely disgusting in my opinion. This is NOT how you treat/preserve our herritage!

My 2 cents - please don't take this comment the wrong way because I don't mean anything bad by it.

Thanks

K 8)

P.S. This is NOT my video, and I therefore accept no ownership/copyright's for it. All rights to the original owner.
  BM3801 Lobster

Location: Go Hard or Go Home!
My personal opinion- Preservation needs to adapt to survive.

Preservation mobs cannot just rely in the income of railfans alone, they need to stretch out to the general public and bring them in. Due to a number of reasons, not the least being bias viewpoints, I can bet that many railfans on here would rather do other things than visit the museum like go photograph some freighters rather than stationary locomotives. If the museum was to only cater to Railfans, it would die out due to low numbers of people visiting as people would have seen the same things over and over. By catering to the general public, they can generate income with more people visiting, and they can spread the word to others so they can visit. 

Remember, the average joe dont want to know 'how many cylinders a 59 class has' or the little things rail-fans are interested in. What they want to see is a big steam locomotive and maybe read a little bit about it, not going into massive detail. Railfans may also be upset about exbits being turned into 'playthings' such as the parcel van, but at the end of the day, they need to attract a crowd, and the public is their biggest target. In my opinion, the displays need to be adapted to attract people, as long as its only a few and not the whole lot. Its all very well to change things, but at the end of the day we are preserving things from the past.

Think about that video, what were the kids doing? They were running, jumping, and having a great time. They were inside a train, which is the best thing in their minds, and able to do whatever they want. Because of this, the parents are more likely to bring them back. Sure they could have fun around the preserved displays as well, and they could have a park seperate from the trains, but they would probably bore them quicker if they couldnt go on the train, whether it be a footplate or a carriage, and get lost in their own imagination and wonder 

Trainworks may have done things that railfans may not be happy with, but they have turned the place into a much more 'Family Day Out' place, catering for a wider variety of people, rather than a shed full of old steam locomotives that seemed to only be of interest to the railfan and the occasional small group of people. A business needs to be continually expanding its market, and thats what they seem to be doing.

I am not a member of the NSWRTM, this is spoken from my personal opinion. 

EDIT: I should also add I am not anti-RTM or anti-any preservation group. I think they all do a great job and should be commended for the hundreds of hours that the dedicated people put into making sure trains are ready to run, and displays are clean, shiny and well presented

  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Well, that video was certainly editorialised, wasn't it!

I can't really think of much more to add to what BM3801 has already written. Perhaps the car chosen could have been better, but where do you draw the line? Can't use a passenger car, because someone will complain that it could have been restored to running order and used on tours. Can't use a loco, as they are too few in number. Perhaps the best carriage to use would be something that would normally be devoid of anything really interesting to Joe Public - I recall there's a mail sorting van preserved in Junee, with interior fittings intact, including the seats and mail sorting "pigeon holes" labelled appropriately for the carriages route on the Riverina mail trains of the time.

In a perfect world, heritage would be "serious business" run by rivet counters, who could colour match each and every exhibit to the correct colour from "back in the day". We'd have hundreds of operational steam locomotives preserved and maintained by paid staff, using money collected in revenue from tours and museum admission.

This isn't a perfect world. Heritage cannot be self-sustaining in the way that many people want it to be. Heritage is unsustainable if young people are not interested - with all the competition from games and thousands of TV channels, kids may never be exposed to Thomas the Tank Engine (something I always used to watch when I was a child, and that developed my interest in railways). Dad wants to go down to see the static exhibits, and needs somewhere for the kids to blow off some steam.

Adapt or die.
  oldmodeller Locomotive Driver

Interesting points BM3801. Trainworks have very successfully created a theme park.
Trouble is, it's too expensive for the average family to visit more than once every few years, especially when you consider the travel distance.
As the Grandfather of boys, I often ask the question "what do you want to see at the railway museum?" Their answer is always "working steam trains" every time. They, like all kids, regardless of gender, want to see steam locomotives in action and ride on the trains. For the kids,there is a small park with a climbing gym located on the lawn outside the main building. I don't believe there was a need to destroy a piece of our railway heritage to create a slide. A slide could have been installed within the aforementioned park.
As I have posted previously, it's a pity that more of the millions $$$$ wasn't spent on returning more  exhibits (steam locomotives) to running order. That way Trainworks would have had more Mums and Dads, their families as well as the enthusiasts and the general public return time and time again. Now I suggest that if Trainworks reduce the price of admission for families, they just may increase the visitor numbers and their bottom line. But then, what would I know.
  BM3801 Lobster

Location: Go Hard or Go Home!
Y'know, now that I re-watch that video, it looks like the slide can be detached from the Mail Van. Cant remember well what it was like inside, but if you take away the slide and the stairs- Presto, van is pretty much back to the way it used to be. Hardly ruined heritage rolling stock if, in a few minutes, you can get it looking back 'the way it should be' 
  VRfan Moderator

Location: In front of my computer :-p
IMHO nothing wrong with having a play area for the children and I think it's a great idea. Remember if you can get them interested in railways at an early age by making visits to Trainworks or other museums fun then they may become your volunteers later. The only thing is that I think this sort of thing should not be done to a vehicle that is rare or historically significant.
  VRfan Moderator

Location: In front of my computer :-p
Trouble is, it's too expensive for the average family to visit more than once every few years, especially when you consider the travel distance.
"oldmodeller"


Why do you keep insisting on this? $57 gets 2 adults and up to 4 kids into the place. That is the same as 2 adults and only 1 child at the cinema.

As the Grandfather of boys, I often ask the question "what do you want to see at the railway museum?" Their answer is always "working steam trains" every time. They, like all kids, regardless of gender, want to see steam locomotives in action and ride on the trains.
"oldmodeller"


There is an operating railway right next to the museum...

For the kids,there is a small park with a climbing gym located on the lawn outside the main building. I don't believe there was a need to destroy a piece of our railway heritage to create a slide. A slide could have been installed within the aforementioned park.
"oldmodeller"


Do we know that it's actually "destroyed". It looks like it's been installed in a doorway.

 Now I suggest that if Trainworks reduce the price of admission for families, they just may increase the visitor numbers and their bottom line. But then, what would I know.
"oldmodeller"


The Workshops Museum at Ipswich is $59 for a family ticket. A ride on Puffing Billy for a family to Lakeside and return is $81, that's without any museum to look at.
  BM3801 Lobster

Location: Go Hard or Go Home!
Interesting points BM3801. Trainworks have very successfully created a theme park
"oldmodeller"

I wouldnt call it a Theme park, more like 'A museum changing with the times to suit the enviroment', which is needed in a business. You cant just stick to the same principles forever, change and adapting is needed to make sure you are sucessful

Trouble is, it's too expensive for the average family to visit more than once every few years, especially when you consider the travel distance.
"oldmodeller"

I agree with you about the travel distance, but not the cost. it would be easier if the RTM had managed to stay at Enfield but unfortunatly they couldnt, and this was the best they could do. I think the cost is very reasonable, as you cant have admission at, say, $10 and hope tons of people will flock to the museum to make up for the money lost.

As the Grandfather of boys, I often ask the question "what do you want to see at the railway museum?" Their answer is always "working steam trains" every time. They, like all kids, regardless of gender, want to see steam locomotives in action and ride on the trains.
"oldmodeller"

I agree. Steam is a big drawcard to these events, but unfortunatly we dont have people who can spare time to make sure they run 24/7. Would be nice, but they have lives too. We should be happy with what we have, and make sure we thank the people who sacrifice their time so you can have a steamer in the first place. And that cost you pay at the front door? Some of that goes towards those steamers. $50 goes alot further than $10

For the kids,there is a small park with a climbing gym located on the lawn outside the main building. I don't believe there was a need to destroy a piece of our railway heritage to create a slide. A slide could have been installed within the aforementioned park.
"oldmodeller"

But was it really destroyed? The slide can be detached and taken away if needed, its still a parcel van and can be changed back to it if needed. Its been adapted to suit the museum

As I have posted previously, it's a pity that more of the millions $$$$ wasn't spent on returning more  exhibits (steam locomotives) to running order. That way Trainworks would have had more Mums and Dads, their families as well as the enthusiasts and the general public return time and time again.
"oldmodeller"

Personally I disagree. Its uneconomical to have too many locos in working order. If we do, we will see less of certain locos throughout the year, not to mention the extra costs involved. For example, lets say 3642 is brought out 6 times a year. If we bring more locos back, we may only see her 2 times a year. Steamlocos are like cars, they require a constant source of cash injected to keep them running, so more steam locos= more cash needed. I dont believe we should be looking at getting more locos back into steam, but rather be getting the mainline loco's (3801, 3830, etc) back into working condition again.

Now I suggest that if Trainworks reduce the price of admission for families, they just may increase the visitor numbers and their bottom line. But then, what would I know.
"oldmodeller"

All businesses need to make a profit, and Trainworks prices are very fair in my opinion. How about we go take over the museum, lower the prices, put the money towards restoring more locos, and not change with the enviroment, and see how long we last

NOTE: Oldmodeller, this isnt an attack at you, just a different set of views, so please dont take it as an attack  8)
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
I would very much like a large group of us from Victoria to escort some of our politicians and railways bureaucrats around Trainworks.

The escorting group would be provided with rawhide whips to emphasize the point about the total lack of interest these people have in preserving our heritage.

One would hope that they would look at the Thirlmere facility and feel thoroughly ashamed. Alas; it's wishful thinking.
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
Trainworks have very successfully created a theme park.
"oldmodeller"


But then, what would I know.
"oldmodeller"


As is fairly typical for any kind of enthusiast debate about heritage, a valid argument can always be replaced with comments in a similar vein to those above. Stating your point with examples to back it up is clearly too much for some people, so they prefer to make comments like the above to make it sound like any conflicting opinions must therefore be wrong.

If people don't want to adapt, they're more than welcome to their opinion, and nobody is going to dispute that. Sadly, nobody can dispute that a lot of money has been poured into the museum, and it's not unreasonable for the museum to adapt a more modern attitude to keep up with todays culture. People just don't go to museums anymore just to look at static things, they need to be engaged. Interactive displays, self-guided audio tours and the like are all staples of modern museums, and without them, museums become nothing more than stale, boring collections of "things".

In all honestly, while the old NSWRTM had a lot of exhibits, and it was always interesting when viewed through the eyes of a child, later visits saw uneven floors and exhibits crammed in, all in various states of disrepair (I mean no disrespect to anybody involved, the point I am trying to make is that there were too many exhibits and not enough hands to maintain them while restoring new exhibits). Perhaps the knife was cut too deep, and too much was removed - I'll concede that, but something had to be done. On a personal level, if I wasn't already interested in trains, and if I didn't know what I was looking at, the old NSWRTM would have held the appeal of a fart in an elevator. I would have had no more interest in going to the NSWRTM as I would in visiting a large shed full of different types of plane. Now, I *would* be somewhat interested in visiting a well laid out, interactive, modern and user-friendly museum of the history of aircraft (this is just an example, of course).

Some people can't get into the state of mind that today's day and age is not like the previous one - visiting museums and the like was a fairly typical "Sunday family activity". With the accessibility of the internet, advances in gaming, etc, the modern family unit is far different from any that preceeded it.

I say again, adapt or die. You cannot run a museum purely catering to enthusiasts. Might get away with it in Japan, England or The USA, but Australia has not the population of railfans required to keep such a thing above board.

Don't get me wrong, in a perfect world, such a museum would be viable, and I would love nothing more than to see such an animal exist. Sadly, it's not likely to, so I make concessions in my expectations where appropriate. YMMV. 
  VBAndy Chief Commissioner

From South of the border, can I point out something to those who are complaining about Trainworks? You have an operating, open to the public, under cover railway museum, with an operational tourist train on your own line to boot! Do you know what we have here in Victoria? A cramped open air, closed to the public, none operational storage yard where every loco or item on display has 15 layers of paint and everything rusted shut/locked. It has been this way for a number of years and is not going to change for quite a few years yet. Our museum got this way due to various reasons, one of which is a complete lack of assistance or concern from the government that owns the majority of the items in said storage yard.

I visited Trainworks in March during a visit to Sydney, as a birthday present to myself. I was completely amazed at the set up and found absolutely everything interesting and well presented. The exhibits are very well restored and displayed brilliantly, again all of which is under cover! The shuttle behind the 27 was very enjoyable, and the cost of museum admission and a ride on the train was pretty reasonable in my opinion. I compare it to the other rail attractions I am familiar with here in Victoria, and you get more bang for your buck with a visit to Trainworks as opposed to a visit to say Puffing Billy. Of course, the staff were all very helpful and polite. This was a much better experience than my first visit to Thirlmere back in 03, which in my opinion wasn't much better than the example we have here in Victoria.


  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW

From South of the border, can I point out something to those who are complaining about Trainworks? You have an operating, open to the public, under cover railway museum, with an operational tourist train on your own line to boot! Do you know what we have here in Victoria? A cramped open air, closed to the public, none operational storage yard where every loco or item on display has 15 layers of paint and everything rusted shut/locked. It has been this way for a number of years and is not going to change for quite a few years yet. Our museum got this way due to various reasons, one of which is a complete lack of assistance or concern from the government that owns the majority of the items in said storage yard.
"VBAndy"


Andy, sadly, the grass is always greener.

I recall visiting North Williamstown when visiting Victoria a couple of years ago, and I was amazed that everything was kept out in the open - I thought that surely, the cost of maintaining everything that is exposed to the elements so close to the coast would easily escalate beyond the one-time cost of building a shed to house it. I recall walking into one of the few "open" exhibits, a V/Line cafe car of sorts, and a group of blokes were sitting around a table. I said "G'day," - not meaning to interrupt, and I turned for the door. I was told "this exhibit is closed, get out", and had the door slammed after I left. Given that I was just an off-the-street punter, I felt quite taken aback by this attitude.

To me, North Williamstown represented a Thirlmere without cover - all the best intentions, just not executed in a way that is sustainable for the long haul.

Edit: For those who wish to continue to put their heads into the sand, perhaps this might be interesting viewing:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/raichase/sets/72157624117078646/detail/

On the day of my visit, the lighting was less than spectacular. Now, I obviously wish I photographed more than I did. Most of the exhibits were crammed in too much for proper "roster shots" anyway, so I went with the more artistic angles. Real shame.

  BM3801 Lobster

Location: Go Hard or Go Home!
Until very recently, I had no idea how hard Victorian Preservation has been. I saw the various pictures of heritage trains running around, thinking it was like NSW. Ill admit it, I sometimes used to complain about preservation in NSW as well a few years back, and I look back on that time with nothing but disgust at my own actions. I stepped back and realised how lucky NSW is compared to pretty much every other state. 
Alot of people need to seriously take a look at NSW compared to all the other states and look at what we have. Supported events (Steamfest), Government giving money to preservation (3801, Trainworks), things other states would love to have. Preservation gets along well in this state because the Government and Railcorp support it.

Unfortunatly we have people who continue to complain about everything do to with Preservation in this state, because its never good enough for them. Id be prepared to bet that most people who complain about the stuff here have never lifted a tool to help out, never experienced the loss in personal life you get, never dealt with the railfans saying "Your work isnt good enough". People like this need to head over to SA to check out their steam operations before complaining about NSW- One line and limited locos, but still seem to go along great (as far as I can tell anyway). I remember seeing Victorian Main Line tours get stuffed around by operators, especially the Spirit Of Progress tour a few years back. Its enough for people to say 'Why bother?'

Im taking a trip to Victoria in September to go on a Steamrail trip, and visit some small tourist railways, and I am looking forward to seeing how things operate down there. Victoria, and every other state, should be commended for the hard work they put into Preservation, in the tough climate they experience



  VBAndy Chief Commissioner

Im taking a trip to Victoria in September to go on a Steamrail trip, and visit some small tourist railways, and I am looking forward to seeing how things operate down there. Victoria, and every other state, should be commended for the hard work they put into Preservation, in the tough climate they experience
"BM3801"
Even the tours programme in Victoria is on the decline, through no fault of the mainline operators (well, most of them anyway). Compare Steamrail's tours for 2012 to that of previous years and you will notice the amount of proposed tours/trips for the year is no where near the amount usually operated.

In Victoria, whether its a static museum, tourist railway or mainline preservation group, things are continually getting worse. It is a real effort for these groups to operate in the current world, and its apparent more so than ever that riding a heritage train in Victoria is a privlidge, not a right. It does show the true dedication of the volunteers at all levels at the various groups in Victoria, which has become a truely admirable effort from everyone involved.

I'm not saying NSW is on easy street, but just spare a thought for the states that are quite literally battling to keep their operations alive.
  UP9372 Assistant Commissioner

Location: Banned
The mail van is a very imaginative adaptation which has done no harm to it whatever. I am afraid a lot of railfans are very black and white unimaginative cumugions. More power to train works. Some of you guys ought to step into the 21st Century and get with the program. Kids these days have Apple I Pads and that is what the RTM is competing against. Oh and I am a 65 yo also but not an antique.



  CraigW Assistant Commissioner

The mail van is a very imaginative adaptation which has done no harm to it whatever. I am afraid a lot of railfans are very black and white unimaginative cumugions. More power to train works. Some of you guys ought to step into the 21st Century and get with the program. Kids these days have Apple I Pads and that is what the RTM is competing against. Oh and I am a 65 yo also but not an antique.


"UP9372"


Quite so. using your logic I look forward to the slippery dip in the Lancaster at the Australian War Memorial or perhaps ice skating past the paintings in the australian section at the National Gallery.

Perish the thought that Trainworks would actually display rolling stock in acturate liveries and explain the role of the railways in developing the state. but no, lets dumb it down and put a slippery dip through an exhibit.

Seriously low brow stuff that confirms the perception of anybody with an interest in railways or railway history.

Craig W
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
The mail van is a very imaginative adaptation which has done no harm to it whatever. I am afraid a lot of railfans are very black and white unimaginative cumugions. More power to train works. Some of you guys ought to step into the 21st Century and get with the program. Kids these days have Apple I Pads and that is what the RTM is competing against. Oh and I am a 65 yo also but not an antique.


"UP9372"


Quite so. using your logic I look forward to the slippery dip in the Lancaster at the Australian War Memorial or perhaps ice skating past the paintings in the australian section at the National Gallery.

Perish the thought that Trainworks would actually display rolling stock in acturate liveries and explain the role of the railways in developing the state. but no, lets dumb it down and put a slippery dip through an exhibit.

Seriously low brow stuff that confirms the perception of anybody with an interest in railways or railway history.

Craig W
"CraigW"


Well done responding to multiple well reasoned arguments about Trainworks with a couple of dismissive statements and a couple of ludicrous examples. I am struggling to see how anything has been "dumbed down", or how anything there is "low brow" - it's hardly like they have topless waitresses serving drinks at the bar, or childish faces on all of the locomotives with crude cartoon text on the descriptions for the exhibits.

How's the view going from where you are, because to the rest of us living in the 21st Century, you've living with your head in the sand. That's putting it kindly.
  Valvegear Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Richmond Vic
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect that the mail van has not been damaged by the fitting of an externally mounted slide. One would imagine that the slide is fairly easily demountable.
To compare it with anything in the War Memorial or National Gallery is absolute nonsense. 
This mail van is a utilitarian object in a place where kids come for a sense of adventure. Some may well become hooked on preservation; I hope so.
The whole issue is a storm in a teacup; lighten up a bit!
  blackbird_1803 Junior Train Controller

Location: Sydney
I wouldn't exactly say I love what has been done to 1803. But you know what.
If it gets the punters and more importantly their children in to the museum then good on them.
And from what I understand it gets them in in droves.

I'd rather have the place full then be able to fire a canon with the exhibits being the only things in danger of being hit.

As an aside, I still don't understand why 1076/1804 was considered surplus to requirements as they could have had Thomas
and a properly restored 18 class tank engine to represent the class.

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