VR advertising U van 1044

 
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Recently, I think a couple of months back there was a review of a new SOAK decal produced for the SEM U van to replicate the advert for Bryant and May's matches.

The decal produced is entirely red with a black crown and in the AMRM review it was laid onto a white sided van.

I know this is a unlikely request, but does someone out there know if this is likely to be correct? I don't suppose I could be lucky enough to have a fellow RPer have some resource that just happens to describe the van...

The photo used on the SOAK packet looks to have come right from the great Peter Vincent's collection, which in itself troubles me.

ie.
[bigimg]http://pjv101.net/fts/u01/df043.gif[/bigimg]

It seems to be clear in the photo that the upper 'triangle' is not the same colour as the lower 'triangle', likewise the text towards the ends of the van 'use the best' and 'made in Australia' also appear not to be a colour matching those on the billboard.

Would it be controversial to suggest that the lower 'triangle' might indeed be red, but that the upper might in fact be dark blue? Which would place the logo on the van somewhat closer to the logo I vaguely recall from their product.

ie.
[bigimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/43/Bryant_Mays_ad.jpg[/bigimg]
(With thanks to Wikipedia)

Could it be likely, based on the above logo that the body colour of the U van in question might have been yellow? Given that could the text have been more likely to be black?

I really like the Bryant and May U1044, I purchased the decal and painted up a U van ready for it. However, having looked at the Peter Vincent photo I am no longer sure, in fact, tonight I sprayed the van back into plain wagon red and put a standard 4 wheel underframe back on it...

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  David Peters Dr Beeching

Location: "With Hey Boy".
Hazarding a guess here Aaron but I think the base colour could be a dark cream colour the same as in that advert on the matchbox. I would also say you are right about the upper triangle being blue. If they were going to advertise their product it would be as close to their house colours as possible, so that the viewer associated the van with their product.

I think you are right about the text each end being black too, as if you look at the drawing of that matchbox on the ends it has black writing on the base colour.
  S 301 Chief Commissioner

Location: in front of the computer
Hi Aaron
I picked up on the colours after the review as well, and posted on the VR Enthusiast forums here: http://www.vr-enthusiast.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=306&p=4689&hilit=bryant#p4689

The matchbox that you've shown in the 'advert' is correct, from what I've found, and the B&W photo definitely has two shades in the 'triangles'. At minimum, this should have been an easy one to get the 'base' colours right! Especially with the photo showing bright and dark areas on the logo (why weren't these used in the advertising decal?).

I will see if I can re-locate the 'plaque' that I have, and take a photo of it, as well...

Regards
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
So I am not alone in noticing and have renewed confidence that I am not going crazy.

Okay maybe there is consensus that the SOAK decal does not appear to match in colour or pattern (the two 'triangle' has not been replicated) the ad on U1044, so what if I ignore the label on the SOAK packet and ask this:

Does there seem to be evidence of another U van carrying a 'Bryant and May' ad that the SOAK decal might be based on?

That's not a dumb question, surely the people at SOAK were not so lazy as to just go all red instead of the (what may actually be) blue, but given the only B & M wagon ad I can see is the PJV one where might SOAK have got their evidence from?

I am now trying to workout if I can somehow alter the colour (over paint?) on the decal myself...
  S 301 Chief Commissioner

Location: in front of the computer
As far as I know, there are no others with the B&M name on them, although as in my post on VRE, if there is I would love to see it. Especially if it 'proves' the SOAK decal as being correct (just the wrong number quoted), at least as far as the actual logo design, if not the colours (being a black and white photo).

Based off previous threads regarding SOAK decals, they have tended to be fairly iffy on the accuracy. Their main claim, from what I've read, is that their decals (or at least the colour matches) were done using software that converted the B&W photos to colour...

Personally, if I already had one, I would number it 1045 or similar, as it wasn't a bad looking decal (as far as a billboard goes), just it wasn't correct for the company shown, as far as I've been able to tell. As I don't have one, my preference is to design one myself, get it printed, and then build it. Easier than trying to paint over it...

Zec



  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Well if that decal was coloured from software converting the B & W to colour and it didn't notice that there were two 'triangles' that are clearly different colours maybe they need to select the software file and hit the delete key! Clearly they paid too much for it.
  ARKits Train Controller

Location: Warwick, Qld
Well if that decal was coloured from software converting the B & W to colour and it didn't notice that there were two 'triangles' that are clearly different colours maybe they need to select the software file and hit the delete key! Clearly they paid too much for it.
"Aaron"


Hi Aaron,

Looking at the photo I do not believe that the two different colours are in exact triangles. If you put a straight edge against the photo the diagonal line is offset in behind the crown in the centre of the side. I would even go so far as to suggest that they lettering on the ends would have been in the dark blue as well. Hard decal to do and get correct because of the shape of the side louvres. Measurements only have to be out a poofteenth and it will look terrible. I would also may suggest leaving the cream areas of the decal clear and painting the side the cream colour then all the creams would be the same.

I will have a further look at it next week and see what can be done to get a decal done.

Regards

Al 
  S 301 Chief Commissioner

Location: in front of the computer
Hi Al
I fully agree with the shape of the 'triangles', was just an easy way of describing them Smile

Found, and photographed, the 'plaque' that we have.

[bigimg]http://www.zecrail.com/files/temp/bryant-and-may-plaque.jpg[/bigimg]

I
t's a slightly different design to the one used on the van. However, it did apparently come out of the B&M factory during it's refurbishment in the 80s.

Based off it, and the photo Aaron posted earlier, I would be more tempted to say that it was a black, rather than blue, 'wedge'/'triangle'. The text on the ends appears to be a similar shade to the 'dark' area on the logo.

Unfortunately, actual colours are difficult to match from remaining match boxes, as these tend to have faded a lot Sad I have three photos on my computer that I found with google. One is a scanned B&M matchbox cover/'logo', which shows a dark creamy colour, with black and red. Another shows blue, with a very faded 'cream' colour. The third shows a similar yellow to the above plaque (this one being used to prop up a railway builders plate).

I'm wondering if the yellow shown on the plaque was a very late version of the design, with earlier versions being the 'cream' (I wonder if the 'dark earth' humbrol colour, used for VR carriage roofs, would fit?). Or if it was just the yellow fading before the other colours? 

Regards
  ARKits Train Controller

Location: Warwick, Qld
Hi Al
I fully agree with the shape of the 'triangles', was just an easy way of describing them Smile

Found, and photographed, the 'plaque' that we have.

[bigimg]http://www.zecrail.com/files/temp/bryant-and-may-plaque.jpg [/bigimg]

I
t's a slightly different design to the one used on the van. However, it did apparently come out of the B&M factory during it's refurbishment in the 80s.

Based off it, and the photo Aaron posted earlier, I would be more tempted to say that it was a black, rather than blue, 'wedge'/'triangle'. The text on the ends appears to be a similar shade to the 'dark' area on the logo.

Unfortunately, actual colours are difficult to match from remaining match boxes, as these tend to have faded a lot Sad I have three photos on my computer that I found with google. One is a scanned B&M matchbox cover/'logo', which shows a dark creamy colour, with black and red. Another shows blue, with a very faded 'cream' colour. The third shows a similar yellow to the above plaque (this one being used to prop up a railway builders plate).

I'm wondering if the yellow shown on the plaque was a very late version of the design, with earlier versions being the 'cream' (I wonder if the 'dark earth' humbrol colour, used for VR carriage roofs, would fit?). Or if it was just the yellow fading before the other colours? 

Regards
"S 301"


Hi S301,

Whatever the background cover that could be left to the modellers choice by having that area left clear. That way the modeller calls the shots and I do not get in the tin. As with the photo you show of the old matchbox cover with the yellow I would think that considering the printing on the end of Made in Australia etc. is the same dark blue I would be more inclined to believe that they would have used that blue/very dark blue in that sign written colour as well. Will see if I can convince my decal guy to give it a go. Now I have to find a U Van. What is the printing along the sole bar other than the U van number. Need that type of detail in the decal as well.

Regards

Al
  S 301 Chief Commissioner

Location: in front of the computer
The other details on the solebars are already included in the SEM U van kit from memory (someone with one of these kits on hand could confirm? No idea where my decals are at the moment!). 

However, L-R would be numbers, 'inverted U' (indicates the bleed valve for the air brake), oiled date ('oiled' being stenciled ,the date being chalked normally), looked like '11/24' (note sure what this is for), then 'T.C.Q.L.', with '10.5.0.14' or similar under it, then PV (date), then NML (date underneath - looks like 10/26), then the last one looks like 'PADS/EXM/(date)' (the / being to drop a line here).

For the colour, the plaque here is definitely black (although my photo does give a greenish/bluish tint to the top corner, that'll be due to my flash and desk lamp). 

Temporarily uploaded these to my site:

http://www.zecrail.com/files/temp/bryant-and-may/bryant-and-mays-crown-matches.jpg - this is the 'scanned' one (the 'damage' to it leads me to think it's just a scan). Definitely looks black here, running calibrated monitors (calibrated about a week ago).

http://www.zecrail.com/files/temp/bryant-and-may/brant-and-may-match-box.JPG - Very faded/damaged one. Bluish tint to the ink, however I think this is more likely to be faded than actually blue.

http://www.zecrail.com/files/temp/bryant-and-may/bryant-and-may-match-box.JPG - Looks to be a fairly modern one, with bright yellow and bluish (but worn) logo.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/brisbanecityhall/5435004971/ - This also looks closer to black IMO, although very sad condition, and out of focus.

And this is definitely black: http://www.slv.vic.gov.au/pictoria/gid/slv-pic-aab82278/1/b14344 - according to the info, C1924. Does lead me to wonder, would the ends of the van have been standard (wagon red/brown - as per all other vans), or would it have been 'blue' with a brown roof?

http://liveimages.quicksales.com.au/quicksales/general/classified/gc5717490086420897380.jpg?width=500&height=375&aspect=fitwithin&padcolor=ffffff WW2 era labels, apparently. Definitely look black here.

Based off the SLV pic, I would think the van would have had black on it, as that 'advert' (guessing for posters?) is definitely using black.

HTH Smile
Zec
  Aaron The Ghost of George Stephenson

Location: University of Adelaide SA
Does lead me to wonder, would the ends of the van have been standard (wagon red/brown - as per all other vans), or would it have been 'blue' with a brown roof?
"S 301"


It's pretty hard to tell between VR wagon red and brown in a B & W photo at the best of times. I do think the roof of U1044 in the PJV photo looks to be the same colour as other wagons (which we would assume were only ever VR wagon red) depicted in photos of a similar time. That is to say the roof of U1044 is not discernably different in colour to the roof of other 6 wheel U vans, and we wouldn't question that they were some non VR wagon red colour. If I were making the wagon I would give it a wagon red ends and roof and not think there would be a reason for doing otherwise.

That said, the idea of painting the entire wagon to look like the box of matches depicted in the photo with blue ends and striker brown roof is appealing, but I doubt that I could bring myself to do it!
  S 301 Chief Commissioner

Location: in front of the computer
Sorry, that bit was meant a bit tongue in cheek, as I would expect the remainder to have been wagon red (all others appear to have been this way!).

That said, it is a very tempting idea to do two, one 'correctly', the other based on the box of matches!

Zec

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