Sydney Light Rail Extension

 
  s3_gunzel Not a gunzel developer

Location: Western Sydney, AU
Replying to fixitguy's querie, the double deck busses are currently operating from Blacktown to (I think) Castle Hill. From my knowledge, the government plans to roll out more on different lines.
"Waratah842"


Rouse***

T75 runs, Blacktown Interchange to Rouse Hill Town Centre via T-Way

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  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
thanks for that. could we see them after the trial as a premant part of Sydney's bus network?
"fixitguy"


We damn well hope so - they're the perfect solution for many (but not all!) parts of Sydney's bus network.

like omg deckerzz
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
thanks for that. could we see them after the trial as a premant part of Sydney's bus network?
"fixitguy"


We damn well hope so - they're the perfect solution for many (but not all!) parts of Sydney's bus network.

like omg deckerzz
"Watson374"


Agreed. Double deckers have a bright future in Sydney. I'm just not sure on how they are going to fund all this in 20 years. Maybe Tony can help us.


  tom9876543 Chief Train Controller

Hi,
I am no expert but.....

Wouldn't it be better if the new tram line went down Pitt St instead of George St?

Pitt St is probably the geographic centre of Sydney CBD so theoretically it would be more convenient for more people.

Building a tram line on George St is almost building a tram line directly above the city circle.

Pitt St could be rebuilt as 2 tram lanes, 1 car only lane and car parking. Pitt St is one-way for vehicles. At intersections with other streets the car parking is removed to make space for tram stops (platforms).


  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
Hi,
I am no expert but.....

Wouldn't it be better if the new tram line went down Pitt St instead of George St?

Pitt St is probably the geographic centre of Sydney CBD so theoretically it would be more convenient for more people.

Building a tram line on George St is almost building a tram line directly above the city circle.

Pitt St could be rebuilt as 2 tram lanes, 1 car only lane and car parking. Pitt St is one-way for vehicles. At intersections with other streets the car parking is removed to make space for tram stops (platforms).

"tom9876543"


George St is the main North - Souh Road in Sydney and is laking any developement that is not aimed at cars. Pitt Street is not a bad idea but it alerady has a people friendly zone. I view the tram as a cataylst for redeveloping George St as well as doing a vital public transport connection.

on other news the light rail is to be built in one go
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/breaking-news/sydneys-light-rail-to-be-built-in-one-go/story-fn3dxiwe-1226550899910

and HASSEL is desiginig the network
http://www.architectureanddesign.com.au/news/hassell-to-design-sydney-light-rail
  bambul Station Master

Location: Sydney
Having looked at the light rail plan, a number of questions arise:

1. The line heads up Devonshire Street in the direction of Moore Park, Anzac Parade, etc. However, Devonshire Street comes to an abrupt end at Bourke Street. The projected route map shows the line continuing on towards Anzac Parade. This looks to me as if property resumptions are going to be required. Also, how is the line going to (a) get across South Dowling Street, and (b) is the line going to cut across Moore Park to reach Anzac Parade? I myself would reckon that a better way to go would be to go down Crown Street from Devonshire, and then onto Cleveland Street, and from there to Anzac Parade (or is that too easy?).
"Fred Scuttle"


I do remember reading that the building between Bourke and South Dowling Streets will be bought back and demolished. There's currently a footbridge crossing the Eastern Distributor at that point, so expanding that and adding traffic lights would allow the line to cross.

I'd probably avoid Cleveland Street, it's one of the most congested streets in Sydney. Having trams going down Cleveland, even for a bit, would either slow down the trams or create a bottleneck for other vehicles on an already clogged road.

2. I see that the line is projected to travel via Alison Road and Walmsley Street. Is the tram reservation from Alison Road (opposite Randwick Workshops) to Belmore Road no longer available? Admittedly, I haven't been to the Randwick area for a few years.
"Fred Scuttle"


Most of it has been built on. That alignment also does not provide a connection to the Eastern end of the University of NSW campus (which would allow trams to replace the Central-UNSW express buses).

UNSW was founded in 1949, not long before the last tram line was removed in 1961. The tram lines at the time were not designed to transport large numbers of students to and from the university, so it doesn't make as much sense to follow the same alignment as 50 years ago. (If we were talking about re-routing an existing alignment, rather than building one from scratch, then that would be a different case.)


3. There seems to be no mention of depot accomodation. The current car shed at Ultimo would appear to be somewhat restricted, given that there will be an influx of new cars. Is the site capable of expansion, or would it be more feasible to build a new depot elsewhere (which should be, ideally, centrally located, so as to minimise the problem of "dead" kilometerage from empty running)?
"Fred Scuttle"


Randwick Council has offered some land currently used as a car park at the Kingsford terminus. I'd also speculate that the racecourse could offer some of its land near the Randwick terminus.

4. Has any thought been given to reactivating Randwick Workshops as an overhaul/maintenance facility for the light rail fleet?

Thoughts, anyone?
"Fred Scuttle"


Isn't this now the Randwick STA depot? If that's the case, it would depend on whether there was a decrease in the number of buses kept there and on whether it was feasible to link the line to it, given that the proposed alignment does not pass it directly.
  KymN Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
and HASSEL is desiginig the network
http://www.architectureanddesign.com.au/news/hassell-to-design-sydney-light-rail
"fixitguy"


Not quite.  The announcement says that Hassell has been selected as the urban designer.  That means that they will do the architectural treatments, but the engineering is quite another matter.
  fixitguy Chief Train Controller

Location: In Carriage 4 on a Tangara
and HASSEL is desiginig the network
http://www.architectureanddesign.com.au/news/hassell-to-design-sydney-light-rail
"fixitguy"
Not quite. The announcement says that Hassell has been selected as the urban designer. That means that they will do the architectural treatments, but the engineering is quite another matter.
"KymN"


woops. i forgot to state that. my bad
  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven
That means that they will do the architectural treatments, but the engineering is quite another matter.
"KymN"

Yes the architecture may be quite good and the engineering may be another matter! Wink
  Fred Scuttle Junior Train Controller

Location: Point Clare, NSW

Having looked at the light rail plan, a number of questions arise:


1. The line heads up Devonshire Street in the direction of Moore Park, Anzac Parade, etc. However, Devonshire Street comes to an abrupt end at Bourke Street. The projected route map shows the line continuing on towards Anzac Parade. This looks to me as if property resumptions are going to be required. Also, how is the line going to (a) get across South Dowling Street, and (b) is the line going to cut across Moore Park to reach Anzac Parade? I myself would reckon that a better way to go would be to go down Crown Street from Devonshire, and then onto Cleveland Street, and from there to Anzac Parade (or is that too easy?).
"Fred Scuttle"



I do remember reading that the building between Bourke and South Dowling Streets will be bought back and demolished. There's currently a footbridge crossing the Eastern Distributor at that point, so expanding that and adding traffic lights would allow the line to cross.

I'd probably avoid Cleveland Street, it's one of the most congested streets in Sydney. Having trams going down Cleveland, even for a bit, would either slow down the trams or create a bottleneck for other vehicles on an already clogged road.

2. I see that the line is projected to travel via Alison Road and Walmsley Street. Is the tram reservation from Alison Road (opposite Randwick Workshops) to Belmore Road no longer available? Admittedly, I haven't been to the Randwick area for a few years.
"Fred Scuttle"



Most of it has been built on. That alignment also does not provide a connection to the Eastern end of the University of NSW campus (which would allow trams to replace the Central-UNSW express buses).


UNSW was founded in 1949, not long before the last tram line was removed in 1961. The tram lines at the time were not designed to transport large numbers of students to and from the university, so it doesn't make as much sense to follow the same alignment as 50 years ago. (If we were talking about re-routing an existing alignment, rather than building one from scratch, then that would be a different case.)

3. There seems to be no mention of depot accomodation. The current car shed at Ultimo would appear to be somewhat restricted, given that there will be an influx of new cars. Is the site capable of expansion, or would it be more feasible to build a new depot elsewhere (which should be, ideally, centrally located, so as to minimise the problem of "dead" kilometerage from empty running)?
"Fred Scuttle"



Randwick Council has offered some land currently used as a car park at the Kingsford terminus. I'd also speculate that the racecourse could offer some of its land near the Randwick terminus.

4. Has any thought been given to reactivating Randwick Workshops as an overhaul/maintenance facility for the light rail fleet?

Thoughts, anyone?
"Fred Scuttle"


Isn't this now the Randwick STA depot? If that's the case, it would depend on whether there was a decrease in the number of buses kept there and on whether it was feasible to link the line to it, given that the proposed alignment does not pass it directly.
"bambul"


Thanks for that info, bambul. Recently, I walked the proposed Devonshire Street route as far as Bourke Street. Looking at the buildings there (public housing (I think, but correct me if I'm wrong) on the Bourke St frontage, with a NSW Health methadone clinic facing Dowling St), I came to much the same conclusion - that the properties were to be resumed and pulled down (not surprising, given that they're government-owned). Nevertheless, I still think that crossing Dowling Street at that level and cutting through Moore Park is silly. On the other hand, Cleveland St is problematic, to say the least.

As for Randwick Workshops, the bus depot occupies only part of the site, and has been there since the late 30's. After the tramway closure, most of the remaining site was turned over to TAFE/UNSW, with the balance retained as a transport engineering complex.

  zagadka Beginner


Thanks for that info, bambul. Recently, I walked the proposed Devonshire Street route as far as Bourke Street. Looking at the buildings there (public housing (I think, but correct me if I'm wrong) on the Bourke St frontage, with a NSW Health methadone clinic facing Dowling St), I came to much the same conclusion - that the properties were to be resumed and pulled down (not surprising, given that they're government-owned).
"Fred Scuttle"


At the bottom of Devonshire St where it meets Bourke Street, there is a public park (Wimbo Park), which is the only public park in that area

https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-33.889731,151.21582&spn=0.002681,0.004823&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=41.767874,79.013672&t=m&hnear=Devonshire+St,+Surry+Hills+New+South+Wales+2010,+Australia&z=18

Behind Wimbo Park (towards South Dowling Street and Anzac Parade), there is a large block of commercial apartments on Olivia Lane that is definitely not government owned. It is called Olivia Gardens. I would guess that several hundred people live there.


e.g. http://www.sydneyresidential.com.au/detail.php?SOUGHT-AFTER-LOCATION-264


I am a big fan of the light rail but I would be pretty sad if the government is able to forcibly demolish both of these. It would be much better to go along Cleveland Street and demolish part of Sydney High 8)

  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
When can we reasonably expect to see the finalised plans?
  Fred Scuttle Junior Train Controller

Location: Point Clare, NSW




Thanks for that info, bambul. Recently, I walked the proposed Devonshire Street route as far as Bourke Street. Looking at the buildings there (public housing (I think, but correct me if I'm wrong) on the Bourke St frontage, with a NSW Health methadone clinic facing Dowling St), I came to much the same conclusion - that the properties were to be resumed and pulled down (not surprising, given that they're government-owned).
"Fred Scuttle"


At the bottom of Devonshire St where it meets Bourke Street, there is a public park (Wimbo Park), which is the only public park in that area

https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=-33.889731,151.21582&spn=0.002681,0.004823&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=41.767874,79.013672&t=m&hnear=Devonshire+St,+Surry+Hills+New+South+Wales+2010,+Australia&z=18

Behind Wimbo Park (towards South Dowling Street and Anzac Parade), there is a large block of commercial apartments on Olivia Lane that is definitely not government owned. It is called Olivia Gardens. I would guess that several hundred people live there.


e.g. http://www.sydneyresidential.com.au/detail.php?SOUGHT-AFTER-LOCATION-264


I am a big fan of the light rail but I would be pretty sad if the government is able to forcibly demolish both of these. It would be much better to go along Cleveland Street and demolish part of Sydney High 8)

"zagadka"


Thank you for the correction, zagadka - I was under the impression that the complex was Dept of Housing.

When can we reasonably expect to see the finalised plans?
"Watson 374"


Hopefully, soon. While it's early days yet, I do think that the route in this area needs to be looked at again. One solution to the congestion problem may be to remove parking from Cleveland St between Crown St and South Dowling Street (i.e; permanent clearways). But then, businesses along that section of the street won't like that one little bit.

As for depot accomodation, is the land at Kingsford offered by Randwick Council, the car parking area in the centre of Anzac Parade? That would be the former La Perouse line reservation. I don't know if there would be that much room there for a depot (a stabling point, on the other hand, is a different story). Also, this would (possibly) restrict any future extension (e.g; to Maroubra Junction).

  Calgully Deputy Commissioner

Location:

I see that the line is projected to travel via Alison Road and Walmsley Street. Is the tram reservation from Alison Road (opposite Randwick Workshops) to Belmore Road no longer available? Admittedly, I haven't been to the Randwick area for a few years.
"Fred Scuttle"


I dont know about that - but I wonder whether this image from Google Street View on Alison Road is an omen

http://goo.gl/maps/yooSS

  raymcd Locomotive Driver

Location: Artarmon NSW
Hello
There is a notice on Darling  Harbour tram stop advising bus replacement Wentworth Park - Lilyfield this coming weekend for trackwork. I wonder if this would be to enable completion of connection to new track at Lilyfield
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
Who wants to go find out?
  Fred Scuttle Junior Train Controller

Location: Point Clare, NSW



I see that the line is projected to travel via Alison Road and Walmsley Street. Is the tram reservation from Alison Road (opposite Randwick Workshops) to Belmore Road no longer available? Admittedly, I haven't been to the Randwick area for a few years.
"Fred Scuttle"


I dont know about that - but I wonder whether this image from Google Street View on Alison Road is an omen

http://goo.gl/maps/yooSS

"Calgully"


Not quite - I just remembered that the (original Coogee) line, after crossing Darley Road (adjacent to its intersection with Alison Road) proceeded down King Street (on - more or less - the same alignment as Alison Road (which veers off to the right, following the perimiter of Randwick Racecourse)). Approximately midway along King Street (opposite an entrance to Randwick Workshops), the line took a right-hand turn, entering private right-of-way, which it followed up the hill to Belmore Road (Peter's Corner).
Tram Lane, as shown, actually runs off Alison Road a short distance past the Alison/Darley/King intersection. This intersection was also the location of the main entrance to Randwick Workshops (where Randwick TAFE now stands), as well as the junction for the Clovelly Line.

I had heard (a couple of years ago) that there was a proposal to sell off part of the reservation for housing - I don't know if that went ahead or not.

  tonyp Chief Commissioner

Location: Shoalhaven



Hello
There is a notice on Darling Harbour tram stop advising bus replacement Wentworth Park - Lilyfield this coming weekend for trackwork. I wonder if this would be to enable completion of connection to new track at Lilyfield

"raymcd"

The track isn't in best condition and there has been a 40 km/h limit near Rozelle Bay for a few years, perhaps they're finally fixing it.

  Fred Scuttle Junior Train Controller

Location: Point Clare, NSW
When I was out at Lilyfield the other day, there didn't appear any signs of connection work about to begin.
  KymN Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
This thread's been a bit quiet lately, but the Dulwich Hill line seems to be progressing.  There is formwork for what looks like a station at the flour mills.  I assume that this will be Lewisham West.
  abesty1 Chief Commissioner

Location: The CityRail Network
When Inner West extension opens, the current pricing will apply until Opal takes over


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATW40pKXM_Y&feature=youtu.be
  bambul Station Master

Location: Sydney
The state government is considering the catenary free option for George Street that the City of Sydney has been pushing for.

http://transportsydney.wordpress.com/2013/04/10/george-street-could-be-a-wire-free-zone/

George Street could be free of overhead wires when trams run down the CBD’s civic spine at the end of this decade, according to an industry briefing on the CBD and South East Light Rail Line provided by the government earlier this week. The slides that accompanied the briefing, posted on the Transport for NSW website, list catenary free operation as “potential in the CBD area” (page 11). The City of Sydney council has been pushing for no overhead wires in the portion of George Street which is to be pedestrianised as part of the new line. While this does not commit the government, it is the first evidence that it is at least seriously considering this as an option.

These changes will not come pain free, and the Herald reports that George Street in particular will see 2 years of work starting in mid 2014 in order to relocate major services such as electricity and water. This follows a similar timetable to the light rail line currently under construction on the Gold Coast, and if it is anything to go by then these 2 years will provide the most significant disruption during the construction process.

The new line will operate 45m long trams with a capacity of 300 passengers per vehicle. This compares to 30m long trams that have a smaller capacity of 200 passengers per vehicle, or to existing buses, the longest of which are the bendy buses and have a capacity of 110 passengers per vehicle.

The briefing also includes a map showing that the University of NSW stop will be on UNSW property itself, whereas the current bus stop layout requires passengers to cross the road either when they arrive or depart the university, as well as the light rail line running along an extended version of the bus road that currently parallels Anzac Parade and Alison Road. This bus road currently ends at Doncaster Avenue on Alison Road, but will later continue on to Clovelly Road.
  matthewg Train Controller

The state government is considering the catenary free option for George Street that the City of Sydney has been pushing for.

http://transportsydney.wordpress.com/2013/04/10/george-street-could-be-a-wire-free-zone/
bambul

I hope sense prevales and they dump that expensive option. 'Wirefree' is expensive and proprietary. If you go for 'ground level' power, AKA Alstom's APS (The one with the most 'miles' under it's belt), you are making the track extremely expensive, expensive to maintain and all trams are locked into needing an expensive bit of Alstom kit added to them.
There are other options, but the competitors to Alstom don't have any real commercial experience yet.

APS is also less energy efficient than the simple overhead wire.

The other option - on board batteries are an expensive maintence headace, and make the tram significantly heavier - thus increasing energy consumption.


All so so a few wingers complaining about aesthetics can not have a pair of 'ugly' wires suspended down the middle of the road. Have these 'but over head wires are ugly' actually gone and seen what modern overhead looks like ?.

The French (the inventors of that expensive APS system) can put wires up in such a fashion that even on junctions it's barely there.

I guess the 'no overhead wires' people haven't looked further than the mess over the nearest Railcorp junction.
  mboi84 Junior Train Controller

Location: Sydney
Just one thing on this extension to the Dulwich hill, is that Dulwich hill interchange tram stop will be wheelchair accessible with a lift and ramps, yet the CityRail/Sydney Trains station next door won't have any lifts or wheelchair accessibility. So people requiring to travel to say from leichhardt to Bankstown and require Wheelchair accessibility would be better either getting a bus to Burwood or Strathfield station and change for a train service sadly. Just a major oversight from Gladys and her minions.
  don_dunstan Dr Beeching

Location: Adelaide proud
I hope sense prevales and they dump that expensive option. 'Wirefree' is expensive and proprietary. If you go for 'ground level' power, AKA Alstom's APS (The one with the most 'miles' under it's belt), you are making the track extremely expensive, expensive to maintain and all trams are locked into needing an expensive bit of Alstom kit added to them.
There are other options, but the competitors to Alstom don't have any real commercial experience yet.

APS is also less energy efficient than the simple overhead wire.

The other option - on board batteries are an expensive maintence headace, and make the tram significantly heavier - thus increasing energy consumption.


All so so a few wingers complaining about aesthetics can not have a pair of 'ugly' wires suspended down the middle of the road. Have these 'but over head wires are ugly' actually gone and seen what modern overhead looks like ?.

The French (the inventors of that expensive APS system) can put wires up in such a fashion that even on junctions it's barely there.

I guess the 'no overhead wires' people haven't looked further than the mess over the nearest Railcorp junction.
matthewg

London and New York used to have trams with the third rail inside a special conduit where the tram drew its power from, it was really fascinating but there were a lot of engineering problems with the system.

Agree with you strongly about the aesthetics of modern catenary; once it's up there people will forget about it.

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