NR Class Re-power Project

 
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
"Traincrews dont want to hang around at the end of a shift hosing down their loco, we hand it over to the next crew and go home"

LMAO what an attitude and you boys wonder why Rail will never compete with Road.
Mick.
Matruck
Please. Do go on why I should be washing down locomotives after my 12 hour shift?  That's ok, I will still back and do it in my own time. I'm due back on the job in 12 hours so might as well stay here.

Say, is that a new lube your using boss?


Sometimes, I wish people actually had hands on experience regarding their statement...

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  a6et Minister for Railways

I quite agree. But there is pride, the NRs do get washed occasionally, there are facilities at Brisbane, Melbourne and Perth. It's not so simple because unlike in the past there are no real dedicated crews to that sort of thing. Traincrews dont want to hang around at the end of a shift hosing down their loco, we hand it over to the next crew and go home. Despite their outside appearance, NRs receive regular maintenance, are well looked after mechanically and are clean inside the cabs which are our work spaces for a shift.
Typhon
Pre privatisation there were locomotive cleaners & that was the starting point for drivers, especially pre WB.

From what I gather most train crews these days spend more than enough time in the cab working trains for quite reasonable shift limits & still quite long ones as well.  They are required to keep the cab area clean as its their home while on duty & to hand it over to the next crew in clean & tidy condition.  Not sure about the facilities to do that but, in years past the only thing we had was a ballaster brush & dust pan, to sweep the floor with for the next crew, while later there was a mop & bucket placed in the nose or toilet area of loco's for the floor to be mopped out prior to changeover.

Most road hauliers, have their own facilities also to clean their trucks, not forgetting there are a heck of a lot privately owned Prime movers as well, the owners therefore have an interest to keep their rigs clean in the same way as car owners do.

I actually see no reason why at the major locations like PTW & Kooragang & Chullora could not have roll through washing facilities to clean the loco's on the move, all it would need is a depot operator to turn the washing plant on as the loco's were about to go through & off once they have passed.

The other aspect is how much time would be involved in the washing or cleaning of the loco by the crew?  I know XPT drivers wash the windscreen down at terminating stations, on the power car that trailed ex Sydney to get rid of oil & other dust off it for the return journey in order to see out of, not much time to do other than that.
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
"Traincrews dont want to hang around at the end of a shift hosing down their loco, we hand it over to the next crew and go home"

LMAO what an attitude and you boys wonder why Rail will never compete with Road.
Mick.
Please. Do go on why I should be washing down locomotives after my 12 hour shift?  That's ok, I will still back and do it in my own time. I'm due back on the job in 12 hours so might as well stay here.

Say, is that a new lube your using boss?


Sometimes, I wish people actually had hands on experience regarding their statement...
  Matruck Junior Train Controller

Location: Lilliput,Victoria
Please. Do go on why I should be washing down locomotives after my 12 hour shift?  That's ok, I will still back and do it in my own time. I'm due back on the job in 12 hours so might as well stay here.

Say, is that a new lube your using boss?

Sometimes, I wish people actually had hands on experience regarding their statement...

Wow a whole 12 hours you poor diddums you must be so tired after wards, I have had a bit of hands on experience actually having spent 9 months as a Trainee Second Person at Junee just as Tolls took over and sacked about 16 of us on the spot whilst i never got to go any further then Goulburn and also did more observing and trying to learn more then driving, But also having been an interstate truck driver for around 15 or so years your reply pretty much proofs to me you need to get out in the real world of today not in the Government Sponsored Railway world of yesterday if you want your job to continue.
Having come from a Railway influenced family where dad spent the majority of his working life on a train and was away more then home and my other REAL LIFE experiences more then entitles me to say to you that i think your attitude stinks and yes no wonder your Company has to watch these forums.
  Typhon Assistant Commissioner

Location: I'm that freight train tearing through the sky in the clouds.
Wow a whole 12 hours you poor diddums you must be so tired after wards, I have had a bit of hands on experience actually having spent 9 months as a Trainee Second Person at Junee just as Tolls took over and sacked about 16 of us on the spot whilst i never got to go any further then Goulburn and also did more observing and trying to learn more then driving, But also having been an interstate truck driver for around 15 or so years your reply pretty much proofs to me you need to get out in the real world of today not in the Government Sponsored Railway world of yesterday if you want your job to continue.
Having come from a Railway influenced family where dad spent the majority of his working life on a train and was away more then home and my other REAL LIFE experiences more then entitles me to say to you that i think your attitude stinks and yes no wonder your Company has to watch these forums.
Matruck

I'm confident that myself and the people here who speak with real actual experience of the job and not 9 months as a second person trainee, do the best we can with the tools we're provided. Where I'm based washing a loco exterior is not our responsibility nor do management expect us to. It simply isn't possible.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Hm , run through wash plant at Chullora . The fuel point there has no roof or any form of shelter from the elements , but we live with that - 20 years next year .
Be good to know where the soapy oily wash water would end up , EPA has very strict rules on this .
Hose water won't wash off grease and fuel and oil or exhaust grime soot etc .
Often engines come and go and never even get time on the fuel point , not our fault . Sometimes we barely get time to top the fuel up and its only reinforced when needs must .
Lots of traffic is shunted through our fuel poing because its not a dedicated road .
What keen people do is take a rag and clean the grime off the reflective tape on the sides so they stand out in the dark at level crossings .

The priority is having engines ready for trains so they can depart on time , in our case they often go long distances so a late departing train with externally clean engines is a fail in our book . You must think there is 240 NRs kicking around with nothing better to do that gather dirt dust etc .
Would your priority be the correct fuel/engine oil/compressor oil/drinking and amenities water levels - or a clean body and cab ?
If you've never tried to wash a dirty locomotive you would not know the work involved . A lot more area than a car or prime mover so it takes more time and effort . If your trying to scrub black blood off the catwalks etc it takes that much longer . Crewing time is money and when you get covered is grease and oil and dirt and ship it isn't much good for uniforms either .
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
"Traincrews dont want to hang around at the end of a shift hosing down their loco, we hand it over to the next crew and go home"

LMAO what an attitude and you boys wonder why Rail will never compete with Road.
Mick.
Matruck

Idea Peter Reith Wink
  cootanee Chief Commissioner

Location: North of the border!
....
What keen people do is take a rag and clean the grime off the reflective tape on the sides so they stand out in the dark at level crossings .

...
BDA

Should that be just keen people Surprised

Surely ineffective reflectors are a safety issue and potentially a case of negligence if an incident was somehow associated with it.
  Donald Chief Commissioner

Location: Donald. Duck country.
That is the thing about privatization.   Is it really needed to provide the service requested? - No - so cleaners etc are surplus to the company and are among the first to go.
Government run railways used to operate with the extra staff to do all those types of jobs.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Hm , run through wash plant at Chullora . The fuel point there has no roof or any form of shelter from the elements , but we live with that - 20 years next year .
Be good to know where the soapy oily wash water would end up , EPA has very strict rules on this .
Hose water won't wash off grease and fuel and oil or exhaust grime soot etc .
Often engines come and go and never even get time on the fuel point , not out fault . Sometimes we barely get time to top the fuel up and its only enforced when needs must .
Lots of traffic is shunted through out fuel poing because its not a dedicated road .
What keen people do is take a rag and clean the grime off the reflective tape on the sides so they stand out in the dark at level crossings .

The priority is having engines ready for trains so they can depart on time , in our case they often go long distances so a late departing train with externally clean engines is a fail in our book . You must think there is 240 NRs kicking around with nothing better to do that gather dirt dust etc .
Would your priority be the correct fuel/engine oil/compressor oil/drinking and amenities water levels - or a clean body and cab ?
If you've never tried to wash a dirty locomotive you would not know the work involved . A lot more area than a car or prime mover so it takes more time and effort . If your trying to scrub black blood off the catwalks etc it takes that much longer . Crewing time is money and when you get covered is grease and oil and dirt and ship it isn't much good for uniforms either .
BDA
BDA

I worked as a cleaner for more than a year as a start up & then on & off for another year before firemans oppointment. So, I agree with most aspects of what you are saying, likewise when working on both steam & first gen diesels, almost impossible to keep clean in the engineroom or walking along the footwalk & brushing up against the greasy conditions, a reason why many still wore overalls on the new clean diesel generations.

As for the blood & stuff, well we had to do that when working in the spray pit to get the remains of cattle etc off the underneath of the engines before the fitter would even do a trip inspection or change a brake shoe on them.  Crewing time was also valuable in other time when there was a lot more to preparing a loco than what is done these days, also with pretty tight time restraints as well.

I guess in those days, though enginemen tended to stick up for their rights & fought for conditions with a union that backed the men in those campaigns, bit different these days from many of them tell me they endure with these days.

The aspect of fuel & safety reflectors cannot be taken away either, yet I also think that even you & other dedicated enginemen these days must feel put off by the filthy engines you work on, as realistically in the publics eye's its not a reflection on the owner but on those who work on them.  I also do not understand how or why you should have to fuel engines in what is essentially a depot that is not under cover, even in the 60's little bush refuelling locations had covers over the fuel points & sanding places, & that included main line fuel points as well.

My point is simple that there should be some place in the major locations, whereby the loco's should have drive through wash facilities on departure roads, for the loco's themselves.  Not saying that it should entail any real delay to any train either.
  fzr560 Chief Train Controller

At the risk of stating the obvious, things have changed. For starters, are you placing your self at greater risk by picking up that hose or bucket? Where does the oil and grease go? If you spend 4 hrs cleaning a couple of engines , did you really need to be rostered up in the first place? If you don't have 6 operating traction motors, the radio only works at one end, or the fuel point will only let you fuel one unit at a time, the outside appearance of your engines is clearly not at the top of managements priority list.
  Fireman Dave Chief Commissioner

Location: Shh, I'm hiding
Why loco's don't get washed,

1. It takes about 6 hours to completely wash a locomotive. We wash loco's at Goulburn Workshops, so I'm not pulling the time out of thin air.

2. The EPA have very strict conditions on what happens to the waste water. Not many locations have suitable facilities.

3. Loco and manpower avaliabilty is a huge issue. The turn around on loco's (and crews) is fairly short.

There are many things the trucking industry does that the rail industry doesn't. Pushing extra duties onto crews, like washing loco's at the end of a shift isn't one we need to do.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Always better working on an externally clean locomotive because you can walk down the sides and not get the grime all over your clothing .
The bottom line is that there is mostly never enough time to wash them because they are either needed on trains or the fuel point road is needed for shunting rakes of wagons .
For example Adelaide Brisbane trains are only in the terminal for an attach/detach and engines in for a top up because 12500L won't get you from Brisbane to Adelaide .
XW/PW4 sometimes has its engines run continuous from Melbourne to Port Kembla via Sydney and back so they get a top up if they need it too . Your Business would look pretty stupid if you held trains off their paths because the locos got a bath . Deadlines and penalty payments , possible loss of contracts - worth the risk for clean locos ? Performance and reliability are high priorities .

The railway culture is not as it was in the Govt railway days , we don't have local crews signing on every couple of hours 24/7/365 just in case the sky fell in .
A6 a loco prep hasn't really changed over the years and its no faster now with an NR than it was with a brand new 81 class .  

Reflective tape . This is on the sides not the no1 or 2 end and the headlights will always be the most visible thing . I hardly think anyone is going to have any legal advantage having run into the side of a locomotive or train dirty or clean reflective strips . The responsibility is on the motorist at level crossings and if they choose to ignore the headlights and horns dirty tape on the sides isn't going to win them the right of way .
  Black Hoppers Chief Train Controller

Location: Banned
Why loco's don't get washed,

1. It takes about 6 hours to completely wash a locomotive. We wash loco's at Goulburn Workshops, so I'm not pulling the time out of thin air.

2. The EPA have very strict conditions on what happens to the waste water. Not many locations have suitable facilities.

3. Loco and manpower avaliabilty is a huge issue. The turn around on loco's (and crews) is fairly short.

There are many things the trucking industry does that the rail industry doesn't. Pushing extra duties onto crews, like washing loco's at the end of a shift isn't one we need to do.
"Fireman Dave"


6Hours yeah right i have done it in 2 hours on a EL including cab and vesty using truck wash , broom , mop and high presure hose.
  a6et Minister for Railways

Always better working on an externally clean locomotive because you can walk down the sides and not get the grime all over your clothing .
The bottom line is that there is mostly never enough time to wash them because they are either needed on trains or the fuel point road is needed for shunting rakes of wagons .
For example Adelaide Brisbane trains are only in the terminal for an attach/detach and engines in for a top up because 12500L won't get you from Brisbane to Adelaide .
XW/PW4 sometimes has its engines run continuous from Melbourne to Port Kembla via Sydney and back so they get a top up if they need it too . Your Business would look pretty stupid if you held trains off their paths because the locos got a bath . Deadlines and penalty payments , possible loss of contracts - worth the risk for clean locos ? Performance and reliability are high priorities .

The railway culture is not as it was in the Govt railway days , we don't have local crews signing on every couple of hours 24/7/365 just in case the sky fell in .
A6 a loco prep hasn't really changed over the years and its no faster now with an NR than it was with a brand new 81 class .  

Reflective tape . This is on the sides not the no1 or 2 end and the headlights will always be the most visible thing . I hardly think anyone is going to have any legal advantage having run into the side of a locomotive or train dirty or clean reflective strips . The responsibility is on the motorist at level crossings and if they choose to ignore the headlights and horns dirty tape on the sides isn't going to win them the right of way .
BDA
We got 15 minutes to prep an 81 & every other diesel up till when I was finished up end of 88, along with 8 extra for each multiple to couple up.



Fireman Dave

What is involved in the 6 hours that it takes to wash an engine?  Again, when a cleaner we got 30 minutes to wash down an engine, & that was with an 8 inch brush on a handle & to hose it off, one on the brush & one on the hose, the same allowance applied through to the Jumbo's & 81cl.

The whole aspect that I am saying is that I would not expect to see engines come out spotless after a roll through wash plant & especially at walking speed which I would imagine would still be the allowed operating speed of the loco's in yard & depot environs.  Certainly if the loco's get that sort of wash at least on a weekly basis then the whole environment would also be better to work in & on, & less chance of getting your clothes as dirty as ones that have not been washed.

Environmental concerns are worth the expense, but surely in this day & age where huge amounts of money is spent on fuel & other servicing facilities, which also includes the separation of waste materials from overflows, then its not that hard nor expensive to include for a decent washing plant.  I am also not talking about something that places extra burden on the driver or his mate at the beginning or end of shift, nor a drop down in their proper duties which is the running of trains, & their normal duties.  All I am saying is that these washing plants can be started by pushing a start button as the loco's enter the plant & then stopped when they are through.

All I am saying is that surely as people who are working on these loco's you would prefer to be in a better environment or workplace that actually looks as if its cared for.  It was one of the conditions that we fought for in the areas of simple aspects of decent meal rooms instead of a dirty room stuck on the end of a corrugated iron store room, with wooden bench seats & table in it.  Likewise the placing of a mop & bucket in the cabs to keep the area clean, simple things that management fought against & saw was not needed, while they sat in the air conditioned towers & plush arm rest cushioned seats, & spent every night in their own beds.
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I don't care what the outside of the loco looks like ( in terms of grime etc, of course graffiti should be removed but that's another discussion). It does not affect my work performance, or have any bearing on my role beyond having to clean down the handrails. I get provided a uniform, if it gets dirty or damaged I can always order a new one. ( haven't needed to yet, the trick is to order dark coloured shirts Razz)

However, internaly, which is the environment I am actually actually living and working for 12 hours at a time, gets sprayed mopped and swept each shift. In fact, I think you would be hard pressed finding a dirty NR cab,they are well kept by the crews. This clearly shows how much pride we have given the limited time and resources at our disposal.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
A6 for us a prep includes provisioning the horse and can mean adding 11500+ litres of fuel ea and any lube and compressor oil as well .
And the odd brake shoe change lights bulbs add chlorine chocks etc etc . If unlucky hot dirty sweaty and then work the train to barracks locations .
Pressure wash any road kill out from underneath .

I don't know how you'd go running a narrow body loco through a wash plant .
  seb2351 Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
I have seen photos online tonight that would indicate NR23 has been unleashed onto the network. I seem to recall that there were 2 NR's being done up, does anyone know who the other one is?
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
It been out for a while running between Melbourne and Adelaide , it came to Sydney last week and I think went back to Melbourne with a traction motor issue . Things you'd notice externally is the whiter than white lights and ILF hoses and electrical gear . Also the dyno vents are curved for a bit less restrictive airflow .
As mentioned all the huff and puff and blow my compressor guv down antics like a 93 class .
  nswtrains Chief Commissioner

It been out for a while running between Melbourne and Adelaide , it came to Sydney last week and I think went back to Melbourne with a traction motor issue . Things you'd notice externally is the whiter than white lights and ILF fittings both ends - and a hose running the length of it so it could go between ILF units with the extra gear for it .
As mentioned all the huff and puff and blow my compressor guv down antics like a 93 class .
BDA
So what you are trying to say is the compressor sounds different when it starts up. The sound of the GE compressor starting up on some N&S Dash 9s at Roanoke I saw immediately reminded me of the NRs back home. The EMD compressor sounds are quite different.
  BDA Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
No , high pressure air discharge noises from the long end so I imagine its the compressor govenor unloading because the compressor cutting in and out follows the same hiss sequence etc - like a 93 class does . I'm surprised they meet the sound emissions regulations .
  Fireman Dave Chief Commissioner

Location: Shh, I'm hiding
For those that asked, th 6 hours was one bloke to fully wash the body, steam clean bogies, full clean of cabs and windows. It's a suprisingly big job to do it properly.
  Greensleeves Chief Commissioner

Location: If it isn't obvious by now, it should be.
I have seen photos online tonight that would indicate NR23 has been unleashed onto the network. I seem to recall that there were 2 NR's being done up, does anyone know who the other one is?
seb2351
I've read reports saying that Yellow IP NR18 is being done, though I say that with no authority. I haven't seen any pics of it for a fair while though...
  speedemon08 Mary

Location: I think by now you should have figured it out
The latest repower, NR18 is rumored to be trailing on 3PW4 tonight...... and from the pic I've seen, its partially clean this time Rolling Eyes
  Greensleeves Chief Commissioner

Location: If it isn't obvious by now, it should be.
The latest repower, NR18 is rumored to be trailing on 3PW4 tonight...... and from the pic I've seen, its partially clean this time Rolling Eyes
speedemon08

Wonder how long it'll take for it to get back on the IP?

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