NSW Future Rail Plan - NWRL/Metro/Harbour Crossing

 
  abesty1 Chief Commissioner

Location: The CityRail Network
Seven:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpzcpjbEAJY

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  abesty1 Chief Commissioner
  meh Chief Commissioner

Location: Sydney
Had a good laugh at the reactions. A driverless train crashed in Germany 7 years ago... Ignoring the countless accidents that have happened with traditional systems.

If they do it right, it can only be a good thing.

Edit: "Ah hello! computers break down". So apparently human errors are a myth?
  abesty1 Chief Commissioner
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Had a good laugh at the reactions. A driverless train crashed in Germany 7 years ago... Ignoring the countless accidents that have happened with traditional systems.

If they do it right, it can only be a good thing.

Edit: "Ah hello! computers break down". So apparently human errors are a myth?
meh
Three systems that i am aware of that are driverless, Singapore, Dubai and Vancouver and I have used them all. I have 100% confidence in the driverless systems and if we wind the clock back 20-25 years in NSw there was still alcohol related incidents. Then we have Waterfall a combination of natural causes that killed passengers because a safety system was over riden and a cultural that prevented guards acting as back up. Then we have V-set up the back of IP, numeorus other train into train collisions often with two drivers in last 20-25 years since the Monorail was built including two head on's in Qld, one with EMU's and other with spark locos for which the cause is only known to the dead drivers.

Driverless systems only fail when not grade seperated, but Rio Tinto is about test this boundry with 20,000 t iron ore trains.

Once again the Union forgetting what its actually for and trying to scaremunger the population with bull smeg data. No wonder support is on wane.
  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

Once again the Union forgetting what its actually for and trying to scaremunger the population with bull smeg data. No wonder support is on wane.
RTT_Rules
Possible future loss of drivers and other staff if ATO spreads means loss of union membership, which means loss of salary for head office "bureaucrats" like him. Having said that, at least he is trying to represent the interests of his members, which is what he is paid to do. Every other "special interest group" uses whatever means it has to do the same, and they often resort to misleading language in the process... Unions are weaker than they have been for a long time in terms of political power and/or membership. It's unrealistic to expect them not to oppose initiatives that further threaten their position. With a conservative government in power it's likely their protests will be ignored, but the same thing may have happened with the ALP.
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
What about the lost opportunities by not integrating this line with the rest of the network.  By making this line stand alone it can't be joined up with the Richmond line and at Chatswood, not to mention the lost opportunity for extra stabling capacity and pathing.

Also, I don't think the politicians realise how hard it is to load and unload a 1000 odd passengers and herd them onto other trains which will be overcrowded.  The whole thing is just a political debacle aimed at shafting a few people in the union if you ask me.
  Airvan99 Junior Train Controller

What about the lost opportunities by not integrating this line with the rest of the network.  By making this line stand alone it can't be joined up with the Richmond line and at Chatswood, not to mention the lost opportunity for extra stabling capacity and pathing.

"2301"

I was thinking about integration being important but I realised it isn't. Everybody thinks the London tube is integrated but when you look closely all the tube lines are separate, with different and incompatable signaling systems and the SSL lines are a different loading gauge. The more you look into it the more you realise, that the so called integrated systems around the world are not, as the individual lines have been updated at different times, with the latest available system even thought they are incompatable with the system in use. Doesn't appear to be a problem on the systems in London, Paris, Munich, Berlin and Singapore that I have sampled.
  2301 Train Controller

Location: Banned
I was thinking about integration being important but I realised it isn't. Everybody thinks the London tube is integrated but when you look closely all the tube lines are separate, with different and incompatable signaling systems and the SSL lines are a different loading gauge. The more you look into it the more you realise, that the so called integrated systems around the world are not, as the individual lines have been updated at different times, with the latest available system even thought they are incompatable with the system in use. Doesn't appear to be a problem on the systems in London, Paris, Munich, Berlin and Singapore that I have sampled.
Airvan99

But the only problem is that everyone will have to change at Chatswood creating one hell of a headache, which I don't really think the powers to be have thought through how complicated it will be.  It would be different if the line went all the way into the CBD but then that will take away the opportunity to relieve the current system.  

Maybe we just have to accept that the system we have at the moment is too heavily reliant on being integrated, which has it's benefits too.  Why can't we have an integrated system that is separated to a degree if you know what I mean?
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
The London Underground, Singapore MRT and countless other systems are indeed fully segregated, much to their advantage. The comparison breaks, however, because unlike the proposed North West Rail Link where all passengers are tipped out at Chatswood and piled onto crowded North Shore services, these true metros have lines into and through the CBD, and often multiple such lines.

In Singapore, the 'Chatswood problem' would be akin to running the East West Line so that a third of the westbound service would terminate at Bugis, forcing people to crowd themselves onto the remaining (and already packed) trains to the CBD.
  aamslfc Deputy Commissioner

But the only problem is that everyone will have to change at Chatswood creating one hell of a headache, which I don't really think the powers to be have thought through how complicated it will be.  It would be different if the line went all the way into the CBD but then that will take away the opportunity to relieve the current system.  

Maybe we just have to accept that the system we have at the moment is too heavily reliant on being integrated, which has it's benefits too.  Why can't we have an integrated system that is separated to a degree if you know what I mean?
2301
How is changing at Chatswood "creating one hell of a headache"?

It's really quite simple. You get off your metro service and walk 10m across the platform to board/wait for your Cityrail service. Reverse the process for outbound trips leaving the City. Worst case scenario, you have to use a set of stairs/escalators/elevators to change trains (depending on whether your NWRL train is on platform 2 or 3).

Total time taken = 10-60 seconds (normal people); or 90 seconds (the usual idiot commuters that plague this city).

As far as the Cityrail network goes, it's probably the most basic interchange you'll find. It's not a headache for operations, only for commuters - and if you think that's a headache then you really shouldn't be leaving the house.

In terms of the patronage and the oft-repeated claim that "loads will be excessive", most North Shore trains only fill to capacity from Chatswood onwards. The patronage north of Chatswood is much less than what many of you seem to think it is. Frankly, 18-20 tph from Chatswood should be enough to carry every passenger between Chatswood and the CBD in peak hour - and that's including the influx of people from the NWRL.

You're also forgetting is that the NWRL will bring new bus routes and timetables. I have no doubt there'll be a greater emphasis on bus travel to/from areas like North Sydney, Milsons Pt, and areas up to Chatswood, so as to help manage local commuters better. That bus capacity through the CBD should be largely freed up by a reduction in Hillsbus services to the northwest. What you people ALL fail to realise is that the NWRL is much bigger than a bunch of people getting on a 75% full T-set every 5 minutes. It involves a broader change to scheduling, bus/train interchange, bus routing, and a huge analysis of how commuter loads from the northwest are handled. The NWRL has been designed specifically to cope with projected passenger loads, and most likely WON'T cause the sky to fall in as some of you continue to claim.

Oh, and you mentioned integration? The NWRL plan simplifies the operation by keeping two separate lines independent of each other, and facilitates free interchanging (with appropriate timetabling) through the use of integrated ticketing. That ensures total sectorisation insomuch that problems on one line don't affect the other, and (when implemented properly) provides a financial and time incentive for passengers to use public transport for their entire journey.

Isn't that how "an integrated system that is separated to a degree" should work?
  franfran Assistant Commissioner

Location: in a Castle in the Hills
I use public transport fairly regularly, and I was looking forward to the opening of the railway to the Hills, but if it's going to be driverless trains, I'll be giving it a miss....
  Hendo Deputy Commissioner

That the NWRL is now confirmed as a true metro style line is in the long term sound, it means the line won't be affected by accidents/failures and disruptions elsewhere on the network. In the long term the whole suburban network would ideally be disentangled and operate as distinct lines (with switching only used for infrastructure works trains and emergencies), with their own depots. In that way upgrades of infrastructure and rolling stock can be done progressively one line at a time and they can be leased out to industry to operate and reduce the tax burden.

That the line doesn't run across the harbour, hmm, how many from that area work in the city or beyond, or work Chatswood, St Leonards/RNSH-Nth Sydney. Dare I say the numbers may fall in favour of the latter. Plus punching across the harbour would probably create, under the present circumstances, a politically unaffordable project.

Now having said all of that I have on good authority that: "Pity they don't continue to St Leonards as a major destination as it was rebuilt with outside terminal platform faces but the Macquarie/Epping line comes up inside the North Shore lines. Could do a bit of realignment and continue the North Shore lines outside to St Leonards and make the centre tracks the terminating ones with cross platform change-over still. A bit of work but not impossible."


Cheers,
Hendo
  KymN Assistant Commissioner

Location: Sydney
How is changing at Chatswood "creating one hell of a headache"?

aamslfc
Transport Economics 1:01 tells us that people value their time waiting, transferring and standing at a higher value than seated on a train. Rule of thumb says that factor is 2, or a 10 minute penalty over and above the actual time transferring. If the transfer is in crush conditions the factor can be as much as 550%. This will apply under Sydney's Rail Future to every NWRL, Northern Line and Richmond line passenger traveling into the CBD for at least ten years while they find the money to built the Harbour Crossing and CBD Rail Link.  Noone in the North West will have direct trains to the City until then, and it will only be for the Rapid Transit customers after.

The elephant in the room is how to accommodate growth on the Western and South lines. ATO and turn up and go services will help, but there is very little scope beyond that.  My long run scenario is that Labor returns after a decade in the wilderness and decides to build the WEX rather than more stuff for the north side silvertails, and the North west mob keep their transfer routine on what by then will be an aging isolated metro shuttle.
  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

My long run scenario is that Labor returns after a decade in the wilderness and decides to build the WEX rather than more stuff for the north side silvertails, and the North west mob keep their transfer routine on what by then will be an aging isolated metro shuttle.
KymN
Something like that would have to be a distinct possibility. For good measure, you might as well throw in another possibility: worsening economic conditions, meaning less money available for future projects.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
How is changing at Chatswood "creating one hell of a headache"?
aamslfc

The biggest potential problem is if the connecting Shore trains are full, and there are lots and lots of NWRL passengers.

With people getting both on and off these Shore trains, this may extend dwell trains.

So long as the second harbour crossing is opened by the about time the number of passengers on the NWRL grows to much.

The is of course some scope for some NWRL passengers to change at Epping for the CBD.

With Driverless operation, there could be enough less-than-full NWRL trains to connect with every Shore train and spread the load. Compare this with the existing ECRL which rarely operates at closer intervals than 15 minutes, where if you miss a connection, the wait can be 14 minutes.

There would be some sense in opening the Second Crossing in stages, such as Chatwood-Willoughby-Crows Nest-Victoria Square-Kirribilli (temporary turnback) since some NWRL would or could go just to these intermediate locations.

A second stage might be Kirribilli-Tunnel-Rocks-Martin Place (temporary turnback)

A third stage might be Martin-Place-Centrepoint-Central-dive at Erskineville (temporary turnback) (P5 and P6) to connect with Bankstown and Hurstville slow lines.

A fourth stage would takeover the Bankstown and slow Hurstville lines, starting at Erskineviille.

Ideally the NWRL single decks would be compatible enough to takeover the Bankstown and Slow Hurstville slow lines (with an extra platform at Wolli Creek) overnight:
* 1435mm (4' 8.5") gauge.
* 1500VDC
* Pantographs suitable for both old and new OHW, heights above rail being the key issue.
* Car width of 3000mm to suit existing platforms, same at Tangara
* Car floor height of about 1000m as per Tangara and existing platforms at Chatswood, which is the new standard.

If not compatible, then close down these lines for 2-3-4 years while the changes are made.

Couplings, brakes, and intercommunication end-doors do not need to be compatible, by and large.

So long as NWRL trains do not operate to tight platforms at say Hornsby P1 and P2, single train lengths and number of carriages can be different than 160m and 8-cars.
If single deck trains do not need to divide, could perhaps have an odd number of cars.
Can Platform Screen Doors work with both double and single deck cars?

If Bankstown and Slow Hurstville lines can continue to work with double and single deck stock, a shortage of cars on say the NWRL due to Grandfinal at Rouse Hill can be found by replacing SD trains with DD trains between City and Bankstown/Slow Hurstville; thus the Break of Gauge is only a Break of Gauge, which can handle floods and droughts of traffic.

The Bankstown and Slow Hurstville need only part of the headway of the full NWRL, and be dual-signalled.

The track layout at Chatswood, part for Single Deck and Part for Double Deck, is very flexible, which is useful for dealing with train failures. Hopefully this will continue. If a train fails in say P3, Down SD and DD trains should be able to bypass via P4.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
What about the lost opportunities by not integrating this line with the rest of the network.  By making this line stand alone it can't be joined up with the Richmond line and at Chatswood, not to mention the lost opportunity for extra stabling capacity and pathing.

Also, I don't think the politicians realise how hard it is to load and unload a 1000 odd passengers and herd them onto other trains which will be overcrowded.  The whole thing is just a political debacle aimed at shafting a few people in the union if you ask me.
2301
couple of issues
1) The trains won't hold 1000 or anywhere near that number. Expect them to be alot smaller/shorter especially at the start until the connection to city is complete. Dubai Metro trains are 5 short'ish cars, Vancouver similar. There will be many people alighting from Epping.

If done as a cross platform change, its not so bad, likely return pax will have to walk over, no different to other junctions. I would have like to see the Metro finish at St Lenards to enable cross platform change in both directions.

2) The current TT has at least 4 trains combing off the ECRL and more starting from Lindfield etc. Just repeat same with a Lindfiled starter following 3min behind a all stopper so it will be mostly empty on arrival

3) The govt is spending alot of money untangling Cityrail to reduce the intergration. ie services run A-B, C-D etc only, not A-B and D. which is more like most Metro's where each line typically only supports one route of traffic

4) Even if it was a DD route, the train service via NERL would most likely only ever terminate at a station on Richmond line and not continue to Richmond.

Not running to the city is far from ideal but not end of world, but you have to start somewhere and going City to Chatswood isn't as voter friendly intially as Chatswood to NW. Hopefully this line will be sucessful and so well used that extension to teh city is easily funded with private funding. Which I think is govts aim.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Possible future loss of drivers and other staff if ATO spreads means loss of union membership, which means loss of salary for head office "bureaucrats" like him. Having said that, at least he is trying to represent the interests of his members, which is what he is paid to do. Every other "special interest group" uses whatever means it has to do the same, and they often resort to misleading language in the process... Unions are weaker than they have been for a long time in terms of political power and/or membership. It's unrealistic to expect them not to oppose initiatives that further threaten their position. With a conservative government in power it's likely their protests will be ignored, but the same thing may have happened with the ALP.
HeadShunt
Blantantly lying to the public is not right no matter who does it. There are other ways to better serve your members than basically buulllshiiting to them and the public. As a Union you cannot control the rollout of technology that will see loss of jobs in your field, but if you have no vision to find ways to serve the worker then your business will die like any business supporting a dying industry.

Unions are weaker in part because many of the members past and present and fed up with their crap. I worked on a site with over 450 members that went staff, the site rep was the first to sign the staff contract because he knew their recent history and behaviour should if it continued only lead to closure of that site. 20 years on its still running. At other sites I have worked with people that protested to management about unions again trying to get on site, protested to keep them out because as guys on the factory floor they had had enough. Technology and LNP is not wipping out unions and making them weaking, they are doing it to themselves and this incident shows little has changed.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
The London Underground, Singapore MRT and countless other systems are indeed fully segregated, much to their advantage. The comparison breaks, however, because unlike the proposed North West Rail Link where all passengers are tipped out at Chatswood and piled onto crowded North Shore services, these true metros have lines into and through the CBD, and often multiple such lines.

In Singapore, the 'Chatswood problem' would be akin to running the East West Line so that a third of the westbound service would terminate at Bugis, forcing people to crowd themselves onto the remaining (and already packed) trains to the CBD.
Watson374
In Singapore the "Chatswood problem" is at Jurong Juct. Line comes in from nth and terminates on a line that runs through the CBD, likewise the singapore airport line trains stop at the junction and return and soon others when they are built. Vancouver has the same on its Millunium line, so does Dubai on its Green Line. Munich has some smaller lines that terminate at junction stations and you change to another service to run through to CBD.

How many pax will alite at Epping? probably alot.

What people want is an intergrated ticketing system and ease of transfer. They are already used to changing buses to trains or ferries. People on the NW from day one will not get a straight thorugh ride for many years, but thats in lieu of nothing at all while the line is built from the city.

Trains won't be crowded it timetabled correctly, the current ECRL starters simply join the other starters from Lindfield and you have an empty'ish train arrivng at Chatwood not long after the NWRL service. Going home is not the same issue.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I use public transport fairly regularly, and I was looking forward to the opening of the railway to the Hills, but if it's going to be driverless trains, I'll be giving it a miss....
franfran
Are you serious. Please wake up and smell the 21st century! I ride driverles Dubai Metro frequnetly and have done many others in Singapore and Vancouver. One look out the front in your driverless train and you'll be asking when are the rest of the lines being converted.

[img]http://cdn1.vtourist.com/4/6280508-VIEW_FROM_THE_GOLD_CLASS_FRONT_Dubai.jpg[/img]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_driverless_trains#Asia
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
My long run scenario is that Labor returns after a decade in the wilderness and decides to build the WEX rather than more stuff for the north side silvertails, and the North west mob keep their transfer routine on what by then will be an aging isolated metro shuttle.
KymN
yet what did the last ALP govt actually try to build a few times, various forms of inner and outer NW Metro's. The silver tails in the nth are high users of PT and probably much more than given credit. Only the lack of further rail penetration prevents increased usage.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE

Now having said all of that I have on good authority that: "Pity they don't continue to St Leonards as a major destination as it was rebuilt with outside terminal platform faces but the Macquarie/Epping line comes up inside the North Shore lines. Could do a bit of realignment and continue the North Shore lines outside to St Leonards and make the centre tracks the terminating ones with cross platform change-over still. A bit of work but not impossible."


Cheers,
Hendo
Hendo
Continuing the NW line to St Leonards to me is the major downfall if it doesn't happen. A smooth cross platform change at both St Leonards and chatswood ideally or at least one for each direction is the key to its sucess.

Also I'm sure the number of NW users will alight from St Leonards and Chatswood as they work in this busy area.
  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

Blantantly lying to the public is not right no matter who does it. There are other ways to better serve your members than basically buulllshiiting to them and the public. As a Union you cannot control the rollout of technology that will see loss of jobs in your field, but if you have no vision to find ways to serve the worker then your business will die like any business supporting a dying industry.

Unions are weaker in part because many of the members past and present and fed up with their crap. I worked on a site with over 450 members that went staff, the site rep was the first to sign the staff contract because he knew their recent history and behaviour should if it continued only lead to closure of that site. 20 years on its still running. At other sites I have worked with people that protested to management about unions again trying to get on site, protested to keep them out because as guys on the factory floor they had had enough. Technology and LNP is not wipping out unions and making them weaking, they are doing it to themselves and this incident shows little has changed.
"RTT_Rules"


That covers a small part of the union decline issue, but actually the anti union propaganda that has been coming from mainstream media, lobby groups and conservative politicians for a century or more is a good example of how "special interest groups" can use misleading language to push their agenda. In terms of union bashing it has been pretty successful, especially since globalisation and other economic changes took off from the 1980s seeing many traditional union strongholds obliterated and a failure to organise membership in new sectors that emerged. If people are fed up with the "crap" of unions, maybe they need to let go of the propaganda, look at the facts of what unions have done and what they can still do, and take more of an active role in sensible, well considered industrial activities. Economic conditions are tough, but an inactive membership is what allows a lot of the crap to go on in the first place.

Given that they are basically weaker than ever, the manner in which the so-called threat of unions is still being discussed in elite circles is simply ridiculous.

As for Mr Claassens' exact words relating to computers breaking down it's a pretty minor case that will probably have little impact anyway, and I wouldn't exactly call them a downright lie.


yet what did the last ALP govt actually try to build a few times, various forms of inner and outer NW Metro's.
RTT_Rules

It didn't happen, though, did it?
There's no clear indication that it will be more likely to continue happening in the future, either, although I do hope it does.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
That covers a small part of the union decline issue, but actually the anti union propaganda that has been coming from mainstream media, lobby groups and conservative politicians for a century or more is a good example of how "special interest groups" can use misleading language to push their agenda. In terms of union bashing it has been pretty successful, especially since globalisation and other economic changes took off from the 1980s seeing many traditional union strongholds obliterated. Given that they are basically weaker than ever, the manner in which the so-called threat of unions is still being discussed in elite circles is simply ridiculous. As for Mr Claassens' exact words relating to computers breaking down it's a pretty minor case that will probably have little impact anyway, and I wouldn't exactly call them a downright lie.


It didn't happen, though, did it?
There's no clear indication that it will be more likely to continue happening in the future, either, although I do hope it does.
HeadShunt
The terms and context he used were far from the truth. As I said before, I don't support any side of politics including the union leader blantantly lying to the population. I respect them more for not doing so. Computers breaking down is hardly relevent when the computer that runs an Auto train is basically the same as runs a manually controled modern train, just different coding.

The only reason the former govt (regardless of Premier) didn't get the NWRL started was due to their ongoing incompetence and changing their mind and constant changing of the guard. Even Rudd couldn't support it while he through billions at Vic for the RFR. What the libs are building is not project that evolved under ALP with a difference in scope that has been finalised and its actually going to happen. I think going by Victoria Road isn't a bad idea into the city, but it requires the whole thing to be built in one go and I think Bazza just wants to deliver something of significant progress in one term of govt after many years of stuffing around. The Victoria Road option isn't closed and can be left for future.  There is also the issue with a 2nd bridge crossing to take traffic off the bridge and feeding these into western services which they have planned to do in Phase 2.
  Silver S Set Junior Train Controller

I hate driverless trains as one in Singapore jammed my hand in the door and didn't say doors closing. I was separated in an unknown place to me (back then), I ended up form Bishan to Orchard.
NO DRIVERLESS TRAINS!!!

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