Driverless NWRL

 
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Trains on new Sydney line to be driverlessBy state political reporter Liz Foschia
Updated 18 minutes ago
[img=340.2x227.2]http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/3726784-3x2-340x227.jpg[/img][b] Photo:[/b] Two groups are competing to operate the North West Rail Link, which will now be fully automated. (NSW Government)

[b]Related Story:[/b] North West Rail Link gets green light




The New South Wales Government has announced that trains on Sydney's North West Rail Link will be driverless.
When Minister for Transport Gladys Berejiklian revealed last year the rail line would be a rapid transit shuttle service she said there were no plans for driverless trains.
But Ms Berejiklian says she now believes fully automated trains are the best option.
She says full automation will allow trains to run every three minutes and they will carry more passengers.
Ms Berejiklian says the trains will be constantly monitored by a team of controllers and there will be platform screen doors to maintain safety and security.
"Fully automated systems have actually glass screen doors on every station platform. It means you cannot access the rail track unless there's a train there with the door open," she said.
Two consortia are competing for the operating contract, which is due to be awarded next year.
And Ms Berejiklian says tender documents for the contract will stipulate that the rail line must be fully-automated.
"That means the trains can be driverless and will be driverless, but it also means that we have the capacity to run more frequent trains in the future," she said.
"It means we have the capacity to move more people around on the system and obviously not only will this be a huge advantage for people living in the north-west but also for people who'll eventually use the line when we build the second harbour crossing."
But Rail, Train and Bus Union state secretary Alex Claassens has raised safety concerns about the move.
"If she obviously thinks a computer can stop a train when there are things on the track it's just ridiculous," Mr Claassens said.
"A computer can't do any of that stuff. Years ago they tried a test here with the monorail. They ran the monorail around without a person being up the front. It lasted for a couple of months."
Tourism and Transport Forum chief executive Ken Morrison says it's high time such trains were introduced in Sydney.
"The big winners are going to be commuters," he said.
"We've seen countries around the world using automated train services for more than three decades. They work well."
Tunnel boring for the track will start next year


Desperate attempt by the union selling a false claim to the public conveniently ignoring the millions of people everyday who travel by driverless trains.

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  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
It's politically-motivated.
  KRviator Moderator

Location: Up the front
Yep. No Drivers to go on strike in the lead up to an election.

But what they gain by the short-sighted approach to single-decking and removing drivers is a cheap, but completely stand-alone system that cannot integrate with the rest of the network.

Seems to me they would be better wearing the bigger up front cost but hey, the Government knows what's best, just ask them.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Yep. No Drivers to go on strike in the lead up to an election.

But what they gain by the short-sighted approach to single-decking and removing drivers is a cheap, but completely stand-alone system that cannot integrate with the rest of the network.

Seems to me they would be better wearing the bigger up front cost but hey, the Government knows what's best, just ask them.
KRviator

If you look at the long term plan, the driverless NWRL will expand way beyond the current Chatswood- NW corridor. So the term "standalone" is relative.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
Even on one of the earliest 'driverless' systems, the London Underground, drivers are still required to be present in the cab for emergencies and also to determine when to close the doors. The term is meaningless.
  Villian Junior Train Controller

Oh please is this Union leader a part time comedian. So having a driver in the cab stops trains running over people, does he think the public are stupid? What a shock that a Union leader would want to stop progress. Mr Claassens grow up or do you want our rail systems to go the way of the Ford Motor Company. A computer will and does out perform drivers every day of the week in Paris, Singapore, London ..... Scare tatics is the best you've got?
  HeadShunt Chief Train Controller

Even on one of the earliest 'driverless' systems, the London Underground, drivers are still required to be present in the cab for emergencies and also to determine when to close the doors. The term is meaningless.
TheBlacksmith
Yes maybe we need more information about exactly what is meant by "driverless". ATO does not mean there is no-one up the front.
  Villian Junior Train Controller

Absolutely ATO has different levels and my understanding is that ATO level 2 is probably what they are suggesting. Which is automatic driving between stations. A driver is still required for initiating the process, emergency fallback should there be a failure and to drive the trains in and out of the stabling yard. It is rare the yards have ATO or CBTC in them.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
Even on one of the earliest 'driverless' systems, the London Underground, drivers are still required to be present in the cab for emergencies and also to determine when to close the doors. The term is meaningless.
"TheBlacksmith"
The London Underground 'ATO' lines - the Victoria, Central and Jubilee - are automatically operated but are supervised and commanded by a living, breathing Train Operator in a cab up front; thus, while they are certainly automated they are not driverless.

That term is reserved for systems that are truly driver-less, i.e. there is nobody up front. The term is meaningless only because you have used it incorrectly.
  TheBlacksmith Chief Commissioner

Location: Ankh Morpork
The London Underground 'ATO' lines - the Victoria, Central and Jubilee - are automatically operated but are supervised and commanded by a living, breathing Train Operator in a cab up front; thus, while they are certainly automated they are not driverless.

That term is reserved for systems that are truly driver-less, i.e. there is nobody up front. The term is meaningless only because you have used it incorrectly.
Watson374

And how many true driverless systems are there out there? And I am not talking about horizontal elevators?
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
And how many true driverless systems are there out there? And I am not talking about horizontal elevators?
"TheBlacksmith"
A fair few. I suggest Paris Metro Ligne 14 and Singapore MRT North East Line for an opening.

EDIT:
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
The Financial Review of Fri 07 June has an article on Driverless trains.

It says that three lines on London Underground are driverless:
* Victoria (with operator)
* Jubilee
* Perhaps Bakerloo which was split of from the Jubilee?

* Plus the Dockland LR. (with "Train Captain")
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
A fair few. I suggest Paris Metro Ligne 14 and Singapore MRT North East Line for an opening.

EDIT:
Watson374
Is this such a foreign concept that we have to define it? yes some earlier converted systems were not 100% driverless due to technology of the day and the trains etc in use, but still are there people who don't believe it cannot happen in todays world?

100% staff less trains operate in Singapore and Vancouver, that is no operational staff on board and no they don't have 100% platform doors or station staff to clear the train. The only staff i saw in Vancouver were secuirty and revenue inforcement and yes the station ticket office has a human to help with general customer service.

Dubai runs the longest and newest driverless system in the world at 76km over two lines and being only a few years old has 100% platform doors. There is an attendent on the train but "She" is actually at the back in one direction because Dubai run 3 class level trains. Gold and womens class is in one car at southern ned of train and "she" is there to kick out the Indian's and Paki's who choose not read the signs. I have seen them open the drivers panel to de-bug the train when required. Dubai has something like 99% relabiity. And yes it has run over one person, a staff member believed to have committed suicide, but driver trains run ovber people all the time as you cannot stop, so the driver is not saving lives.

I have riden all three systems and with exception for older trains in Singapore, there is no driver's cab, its purely a consul under the bench at the train front. Advatage is that pax get a forward view. Go to You tube, Dubai Green or Red line. A guy has up loaded a full run. On the green line you can see my son in the reflection going through the tunnel.

Singapore doesn't permanently light the tunnels, but the others do. the lines are built with a 100% mini side platform exit so at any point the train can be evacuated. Something i believe the ECRL also has.

Dubai moves about 350,000 people a day on 2min intervals, the track routes are relatively basic operation of up and back and the train shuttles back after passing the last station and crosses over. When I first rode it and now stations were still closed, the trains slow through these stations. But in 2010, the train didn't venture to end of red line, it just used a cross over to shuttle to other platform at last station to return. On Green line the last two stations are currently out of use and the train runs to the end to swap tracks. Cleaners hop in at the last station to clean the train while it shuttles over. At the Nth terminus of red line and both ends of Green line, there are no buffers to stop an over run into air within 100m past last station due to option for future extension, note the line is a viaduct here.

In Vancouver the two lines operating when I was there shared a common track for half the route. Singapore has some intermix of lines. At end of I think Nth line (2nd line built), I noticed 30 sec between departure of terminating service back the way it came and the next train arriving on same platform.

When the NSW annouced the future Metro options, it was very clear the choice was made as it was easy to convert to 100% staff less trains. The NW extension would be built from scratch, the NWRL is easy to convert and the Bankstown and Hurtsville routes canbe easily seperated from Cityrail. Just need a tunnel to connect from city to Chatswood.

The technology has long been available, it exists on the typical HO system, just scale it up! The safety aspects have been dealth with and the safety aspects of a driverless system have proven they are probably safer than driver systems, although usually different environements so hard to compare, really the driverless option is case closed and the cost of frequency is no longer proportion with number of trains running. Qld wants 15min services with its high cost miniture trains with two staff. NSW at least has higher volumes, but still manages with Qld to operate at around a 75% subsidy. Meanwhile the Auto systems provide a greater service at a fraction of the cost. many want NSW to drill the tunnels that 40-60cm larger to enable DD. But really this is a one way to trip to nowhere at a cost that will never be uterlised and govt knows this. I suppose you can run driverless DD stock, the efficency of DD stock on shorter high density routes has been under question for many years now for good reason. No company is offering a DD metro on the market today and there must be a good reason for it. USa has DD for regional commuter and long haul, but doesn't use on Metro systems, neither does Japan or Europe.

So lets all welcome the new driverless system, the improved reliability the greater frequency and the abilty to look out the front for the first time and really this is the best view and drivers know it.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
Is this such a foreign concept that we have to define it? yes some earlier converted systems were not 100% driverless due to technology of the day and the trains etc in use, but still are there people who don't believe it cannot happen in todays world?

100% staff less trains operate in Singapore and Vancouver, that is no operational staff on board and no they don't have 100% platform doors or station staff to clear the train. The only staff i saw in Vancouver were secuirty and revenue inforcement and yes the station ticket office has a human to help with general customer service.
"RTT_Rules"
Singapore MRT retains PSDs; all underground stations were built with PSDs when new, and all elevated stations have had half-height PEDs retrofitted. (Before you ask, 'What about at-grade stations?', the only true surface station in Singapore, Bishan, has had full PSDs retrofitted.)

Bear in mind that of the two systems you cite, only the Singapore MRT's North East Line is a 'full' metro (six long cars).

Singapore doesn't permanently light the tunnels, but the others do. the lines are built with a 100% mini side platform exit so at any point the train can be evacuated. Something i believe the ECRL also has.
"RTT_Rules"
The ECRL has a continuous parallel walkway at platform height, I believe. The Putra LRT in KL has tunnel lighting always on, but it's a light metro of the Vancouver SkyTrain type.

Singapore has some intermix of lines. At end of I think Nth line (2nd line built), I noticed 30 sec between departure of terminating service back the way it came and the next train arriving on same platform.
"RTT_Rules"
Singapore has absolutely no intermixing services at present, but operation of termini is quite efficient.

The last instance of interlining was a set of five morning peak services operating from Ang Mo Kio to Jurong East via Woodlands (North South Line), crossing over to the East West Line at Jurong East to then run to Pasir Ris via CBD. These were all cancelled in December 2011 after the Jurong East Modification Project was completed, allowing all northbound NSL trains to reverse at Jurong East, freeing up valuable slots for eastbound EWL services from Boon Lay and Joo Koon. These services were operated to allow more services from the NSL (Woodlands and Choa Chu Kang in particular) to run into Jurong East without increasing the number of trains reversing in the single NSL terminal platform; the JEMP created another track (and two platforms) to increase NSL terminus capacity at Jurong East to eliminate the need for the five cross-line services.

Although certain parts of the network retain track connections (e.g. between the North South Line and East West Line), all services are operationally segregated from each other, with no conflicting/opposing moves nor any interlining.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
Thanks for those corrections Watson, but I will make one correction. When I was last in Sing Sing Dec 2011, not all stations had platform doors installed, it was ongoing. it maybe finished by now, which would make it not a correction.

Jurong Junct used to have the ability to run on into the E-W line traffic, but f I recall this may have stopped.

My wife's inlaws used to live just short of the E-W line terminus and you could see trains swapping tracks in 2000, but when I went back in 2011, a combination of more buildings and line extension meant this was no longer possible. I assume trains still cross like Brisbane airport Dom station to swap tracks, which unlike Dubai is done after the station with pax off.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
Thanks for those corrections Watson, but I will make one correction. When I was last in Sing Sing Dec 2011, not all stations had platform doors installed, it was ongoing. it maybe finished by now, which would make it not a correction.
"RTT_Rules"
The last station to have half-height PEDs installed was NS7 Kranji, which had them operational on 14 March 2012.

Jurong Junct used to have the ability to run on into the E-W line traffic, but f I recall this may have stopped.
"RTT_Rules"
Track connections still exist - JEMP only involved additional infrastructure on top (quite literally) of the existing flying junctions. The original configuration was set up to allow the EWL to branch to both Boon Lay and Choa Chu Kang. The centre road was the one feeding the Choa Chu Kang branch, and it became the terminal platform for the NSL when it was extended from Yishun to Choa Chu Kang via Woodlands, completing the loop.

It was (and should still be) possible for northbound NSL services coming in from Bukit Batok to cross over to the eastbound EWL just before arrival at Jurong East. This was the crossing move made by the five AM peak services I mentioned yesterday.

My wife's inlaws used to live just short of the E-W line terminus and you could see trains swapping tracks in 2000, but when I went back in 2011, a combination of more buildings and line extension meant this was no longer possible. I assume trains still cross like Brisbane airport Dom station to swap tracks, which unlike Dubai is done after the station with pax off.
"RTT_Rules"
Nice, I have relatives who live near both Boon Lay and Jurong East.

I strongly believe, but cannot confirm, that Joo Koon operates as a Brixton-style terminus, where the terminal station is preceded by a double or scissors/diamond crossover and terminating trains alternate platforms, such that both platforms are effectively 'up'. The best Sydney example is Bondi Junction.
  RTT_Rules Oliver Bullied, CME

Location: Dubai UAE
I think Bondi Junction is similar to Brisbane Domestic then, where the arriving train can enter either platform and depart from same which means there is a "cross" for incoming and outgoings services. Same as Singapore had on E-W line western terminus when I was there in 2000. Except in Singapore it happened every 3min and then had a driver. The tracks beyond where just a 6 car extension of track and no points, fairly rusty from lack of use. Driver (with tie) basically had less than 3min to turn his train around. I believe the "driver" to convert the original Singapore MRT to driverless was lack of drivers.

Found this in Wiki, the list is much bigger than I thought
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_driverless_trains#Asia
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
An advantage of Driverless operation, is that one can afford to have a much more frequent service during offpeak and weekend times, since of course, crewing costs are eliminated. Passengers ought to appreciate this. Weekend, very early and very late trips are of course "unsociable" for the crew, not counting split shifts, and their elimination would be welcomed by Unions.
  Boss Chief Commissioner

Location: Caulfield Line


Found this in Wiki, the list is much bigger than I thought
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_driverless_trains#Asia
RTT_Rules
Amazing how some facts can influence a debate.
  railblogger Chief Commissioner

Location: At the back of the train, quitely doing exactly what you'd expect.
I strongly believe, but cannot confirm, that Joo Koon operates as a Brixton-style terminus, where the terminal station is preceded by a double or scissors/diamond crossover and terminating trains alternate platforms, such that both platforms are effectively 'up'. The best Sydney example is Bondi Junction.
Watson374
I believe that is the case for many of Singapore's termini?
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
I believe that is the case for many of Singapore's termini?
"railblogger"
I believe that is the case of most of Singapore's termini.
  awsgc24 Minister for Railways

Location: Sydney
I believe that is the case for many of Singapore's termini?
railblogger

With driverless operation, no time is spent for the driver to change ends, or to have a tea break. The turnback time can be as short as the time needed to powerdown the controls at one end and powerup at the other.

Morden, the southern terminus of the Northern (black) line has three tracks with two island platforms. The same arrangement is  used at the northern terminus of the Picadilly (blue) line. Thus two platforms is not always enough.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
With driverless operation, no time is spent for the driver to change ends, or to have a tea break. The turnback time can be as short as the time needed to powerdown the controls at one end and powerup at the other.
"awsgc24"
This can be alleviated by using relay drivers, quite literally one more driver to allow cascading.

Morden, the southern terminus of the Northern (black) line has three tracks with two island platforms. The same arrangement is  used at the northern terminus of the Picadilly (blue) line. Thus two platforms is not always enough.
"awsgc24"
While Morden and Cockfosters are certainly triple-track termini, it's worth noting that Brixton (the Victoria line's southern terminus) is of a two-platform scissors-crossover configuration (which I refer to as the 'Brixton configuration' - guess why!). This is one of the most intensively-used termini in London, as in normal service all southbound Victoria line trains are reversed there.

It's also worth noting that while it theoretically has a higher capacity, Cockfosters does not normally terminate all Piccadilly service, as some services are reversed at Arnos Grove; ditto for Morden, as many via West End services are turned around on the Kennington loop rather than run through to Morden.

Considering that the Victoria line is alleged to max out at 33tph after the 67TS were replaced by the 09TS, plus associated resignalling and other upgrades, I'm inclined to think that while having more platforms obviously results in a higher theoretical maximum capacity, Morden and Cockfosters having three platforms doesn't necessarily mean that two isn't enough!
  Raichase Captain Rant!

Location: Sydney, NSW
This can be alleviated by using relay drivers, quite literally one more driver to allow cascading.
Watson374
For the record, this is done at Epping and Bondi Junction in the Sydney network.
  Watson374 Chief Commissioner

Location: Fully reclined at the pointy end.
For the record, this is done at Epping and Bondi Junction in the Sydney network.
"Raichase"
Makes sense - especially Bondi Junction. Thanks for that!

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